Nobody ever seems to address this when post this in a thread so i thought i'd give it its own topic

[atlGM]

Just to illustrate what imo are misconceptions surrounding Ragaland's athletic ability take a look at these measurables

 

40- 4.84

10 yard split- 1.65

20 yard split- 2.79

20 yard shuttle- 4.7

vert 31 1/2

broad jump 09'04"

 

40 4.72

10 yard split- 1.65

20 yard split- 2.75

20 yard shuttle- 4.28

vert- 31 1/2

broad jump- 09'08"

 

Just looking at these numbers side by side would you guess that the first guy is danny trevathan(pro day) and the second Ragland(combine)?

Leading up to free agency Travathan is guy who was been praised for his 3 down ability and a favorite amungst TATF members. But the measurables say Ragland is if not the same a better athlete. 

 

So then putting what both of these guys have done into context i come away with this. 

Alabama had a better coverage LB in Forster and took advantage of Ragland's ability to hold 260 lb's playing lb and used him as more of a pass rusher and blitzer in most pass rushing situations.

Travathan played on team that had the best front four and arguably the best secondary in the league not to mention he wasn't asked to cover the whole field due to the that they ran a 3-4 base defesne and he had a another good linebacker iBrandon Marshall playing next to him.

 

So i'm just confused to how the overall consensus was made that travathan was no brainer free agent pickup but Ragland isn't a scheme fit.

Here's a copy of NFL.com's scouting reports they both question each guys coverage ability

Ragland

STRENGTHS

 Old-school, take­-on middle linebacker who plays the game the way Nick Saban likes. Steps into hole and will swap paint with lead blockers in order to constrict his gap. Instinctive linebacker who trusts his eyes and goes. Showed greater understanding of angles and leverage this year. Wont over­commit when flowing to ball carrier and almost always finds his run fits. Missed tackles fell from ten in 2014 to just three this season. Played with hand in ground as an edge rusher in some sub­packages. Showed greater willingness to take chances downhill. Nasty hitter with above average play strength.

WEAKNESSES

 Some scouts question his play speed. Can be inconsistent with his angles when playing downhill. Could get himself in trouble miscalculating NFL speed to the perimeter. Will get locked up more often by pro linemen if he tries to take on all blocks rather than punch and shed. Alabamas outstanding defensive front allowed him to roam unblocked for much of the year. Can handle himself in zone coverage but man cover skills are limited.

 

Trevathan

STRENGTHS

 Trevathan is a good lateral mover who makes plays sideline to sideline. He can run everything down. He relies on his speed to rush the passer and brings a physical, explosive drive-shoulder tackle when he reaches the quarterback. He has good hands to secure interceptions and is active in the pass game even though he struggles when dropping. A classic undersized, athletic lateral mover at outside backer.

WEAKNESSES

 Trevathan is an undersized backer who can struggle to shed away from bigger offensive lineman. He should be able to pass drop given his size, but he struggles there as well and seems to be unaware in terms of recognition and understanding how to play in space when defending the pass. He is better in tight and gets somewhat exposed when playing zone coverage. He can also be slow to diagnose plays at times; he needs to hit plays full speed to be effective. He can overrun plays at times even though he is effective in chase.

Edited March 12, 2016 by atlGM

[Butudontseeme™]

I didn't watch the combine, but I thought Ragland didn't run a 40 in Indy?

[youngbloodz]

They are similar in regards to measurables. I'm not concerned with track speed. Playing speed is all that matters. And Trevathan plays faster. Just how i see it

[atlGM]

3 minutes ago, Butudontseeme™ said:

I didn't watch the combine, but I thought Ragland didn't run a 40 in Indy?

nope its all on the net just search each guys draft profile.

[KRUNKuno]

5 minutes ago, Butudontseeme™ said:

I didn't watch the combine, but I thought Ragland didn't run a 40 in Indy?

He didnt run at his pro day.  He felt his time was good enough.

[xiv_T_E_C_O_]

I'd love Ragland, you can compare all the numbers you want. When I see that kid play he embodies everything I want from a MLB.

[atlGM]

2 minutes ago, xiv_T_E_C_O_ said:

I'd love Ragland, you can compare all the numbers you want. When I see that kid play he embodies everything I want from a MLB.

my sentiments exactly. 

[Clark Kent™]

This is why you have to rely on watching games rather than comparing 40 times. Trevathan plays a lot faster and is a lot more fluid than Ragland. 

 

[Atlfanstckndenver]

24 minutes ago, atlGM said:

Just to illustrate what imo are misconceptions surrounding Ragaland's athletic ability take a look at these measurables

 

40- 4.84

10 yard split- 1.65

20 yard split- 2.79

20 yard shuttle- 4.7

vert 31 1/2

broad jump 09'04"

 

40 4.72

10 yard split- 1.65

20 yard split- 2.75

20 yard shuttle- 4.28

vert- 31 1/2

broad jump- 09'08"

 

Just looking at these numbers side by side would you guess that the first guy is danny trevathan(pro day) and the second Ragland(combine)?

Leading up to free agency Travathan is guy who was been praised for his 3 down ability and a favorite amungst TATF members. But the measurables say Ragland is if not the same a better athlete. 

 

So then putting what both of these guys have done into context i come away with this. 

Alabama had a better coverage LB in Forster and took advantage of Ragland's ability to hold 260 lb's playing lb and used him as more of a pass rusher and blitzer in most pass rushing situations.

Travathan played on team that had the best front four and arguably the best secondary in the league not to mention he wasn't asked to cover the whole field due to the that they ran a 3-4 base defesne and he had a another good linebacker iBrandon Marshall playing next to him.

 

So i'm just confused to how the overall consensus was made that travathan was no brainer free agent pickup but Ragland isn't a scheme fit.

Here's a copy of NFL.com's scouting reports they both question each guys coverage ability

Ragland

STRENGTHS

 Old-school, take­-on middle linebacker who plays the game the way Nick Saban likes. Steps into hole and will swap paint with lead blockers in order to constrict his gap. Instinctive linebacker who trusts his eyes and goes. Showed greater understanding of angles and leverage this year. Wont over­commit when flowing to ball carrier and almost always finds his run fits. Missed tackles fell from ten in 2014 to just three this season. Played with hand in ground as an edge rusher in some sub­packages. Showed greater willingness to take chances downhill. Nasty hitter with above average play strength.

WEAKNESSES

 Some scouts question his play speed. Can be inconsistent with his angles when playing downhill. Could get himself in trouble miscalculating NFL speed to the perimeter. Will get locked up more often by pro linemen if he tries to take on all blocks rather than punch and shed. Alabamas outstanding defensive front allowed him to roam unblocked for much of the year. Can handle himself in zone coverage but man cover skills are limited.

 

Trevathan

STRENGTHS

 Trevathan is a good lateral mover who makes plays sideline to sideline. He can run everything down. He relies on his speed to rush the passer and brings a physical, explosive drive-shoulder tackle when he reaches the quarterback. He has good hands to secure interceptions and is active in the pass game even though he struggles when dropping. A classic undersized, athletic lateral mover at outside backer.

WEAKNESSES

 Trevathan is an undersized backer who can struggle to shed away from bigger offensive lineman. He should be able to pass drop given his size, but he struggles there as well and seems to be unaware in terms of recognition and understanding how to play in space when defending the pass. He is better in tight and gets somewhat exposed when playing zone coverage. He can also be slow to diagnose plays at times; he needs to hit plays full speed to be effective. He can overrun plays at times even though he is effective in chase.

I disagreed about travathan being a nip brainer.  I think he was overrated because of the nationally televised superbowl run the Broncos had.  To be fair,  travathan makes up for his lack of speed with great decision making.  Still,  the guy was way over hyped.  Plus I worry about that knee holding up.  

 

As far as Ragland is concerned, prior to the combine I won't deny that I questioned his athletic skill set. I still do. The guy obviously is built to be a pro linebacker,  but i wondered about closing speed and hip flexibility.  This defense requires a very fast and instinctive linebacker to man the middle.  The more ground he covers the better our defense will look. I think ragland will be just fine as a pro,  I'm still not sure he's exactly what this team needs.  That said,  if he where to come here I believe he would immediately pay dividends, but not in the passing game.  1st And 2nd down the guy is as good as this draft has to offer.  I still can't help but wonder about him in passing situations. 

 

Also I tried to look up those two players cone numbers as that's clearly a big indicator of agility etc. Unfortunately that's asking too much. I think DT was hurt so he didn't run that drill,  and I'm not sure why it's tough to find RR'S.

Edited March 12, 2016 by Atlfanstckndenver

[atlGM]

2 minutes ago, Clark Kent™ said:

This is why you have to rely on watching games rather than comparing 40 times. Trevathan plays a lot faster and is a lot more fluid than Ragland. 

 

I just don't buy that. I'm a tape guy draftbreakdown.com is my main resource. It may sound like just a theory but i think Ragland just looks slower because he is much bigger in stature than Travathan. He plays equally as fast imo . Also you have to remeber Travathan plays in 3-4 where there is much less ground to cover. 

I'm not big 40 times but you can just look at the 10 yard split times and 20 yard shuttle time to see that they are essentially the same player athletically 

[Clark Kent™]

Just now, atlGM said:

I just don't buy that. I'm a tape guy draftbreakdown.com is my main resource. It may sound like just a theory but i think Ragland just looks slower because he is much bigger in stature than Travathan. He plays equally as fast imo . Also you have to remeber Travathan plays in 3-4 where there is much less ground to cover. 

I'm not big 40 times but you can just look at the 10 yard split times and 20 yard shuttle time to see that they are essentially the same player athletically 

We can agree to disagree, but even the scouting reports says Trevathan is a good lateral mover who makes plays sideline to sideline

 

Meanwhile, Raglands says scouts question his play speed. 

[Atlfanstckndenver]

23 minutes ago, xiv_T_E_C_O_ said:

I'd love Ragland, you can compare all the numbers you want. When I see that kid play he embodies everything I want from a MLB.

I agree that he is a great player while at Bama. Even so,  watching the tape is exactly what lead me to wondering about his speed translating to the pros. I'll say it again,  he'll clearly be able to have success in the nfl. It just remains to be seen if that success will include passing situations. 

[atlGM]

7 minutes ago, Atlfanstckndenver said:

I disagreed about travathan being a nip brainer.  I think he was overrated because of the nationally televised superbowl run the Broncos had.  To be fair,  travathan makes up for his lack of speed with great decision making.  Still,  the guy was way over hyped.  Plus I worry about that knee holding up.  

 

As far as Ragland is concerned, prior to the combine I won't deny that I questioned his athletic skill set. I still do. The guy obviously is built to be a pro linebacker,  but i wondered about closing speed and hip flexibility.  This defense requires a very fast and instinctive linebacker to man the middle.  The more ground he covers the better our defense will look. I think ragland will be just fine as a pro,  I'm still not sure he's exactly what this team needs.  That said,  if he where to come here I believe he would immediately pay dividends, but not in the passing game.  1st And 2nd down the guy is as good as this draft has to offer.  I still can't help but wonder about him in passing situations. 

 

Also I tried to look up those two players cone numbers as that's clearly a big indicator of agility etc. Unfortunately that's asking too much. I think DT was hurt so he didn't run that drill,  and I'm not sure why it's tough to find RR'S.

Pretty much agree with everything your saying. I just feel he will be adequate enough to hold up in coverage mainly because we run alot of zone concepts. I also  am not a fan of his 3 cone time. But my main concern is that he holds his combine weight of 247 but i think he worth the risk.

 

I would rather take Lawson at 17 but i doubt he'd be there and i'm not sold any of the other pass rushers being worth the 17th pick

 

 

[Atlfanstckndenver]

11 minutes ago, atlGM said:

I just don't buy that. I'm a tape guy draftbreakdown.com is my main resource. It may sound like just a theory but i think Ragland just looks slower because he is much bigger in stature than Travathan. He plays equally as fast imo . Also you have to remeber Travathan plays in 3-4 where there is much less ground to cover. 

I'm not big 40 times but you can just look at the 10 yard split times and 20 yard shuttle time to see that they are essentially the same player athletically 

The main question is more about hip flexibility and change of direction.

[Atlfanstckndenver]

2 minutes ago, atlGM said:

Pretty much agree with everything your saying. I just feel he will be adequate enough to hold up in coverage mainly because we run alot of zone concepts. I also  am not a fan of his 3 cone time. But my main concern is that he holds his combine weight of 247 but i think he worth the risk.

 

I would rather take Lawson at 17 but i doubt he'd be there and i'm not sold any of the other pass rushers being worth the 17th pick

 

 

I am 100% with this post. 

[takeitdown]

Part of the difference is odds.

If only 1 out of 10 LBs who run over a 4.7 are able to make it as a 3 down LB in the NFL...those are bad odds.

If you have a guy who has become one of those 10...you already know he has enough of the other stuff to make it.  That's trevathan.  Whereas, if you take the college guy, there's still a very good chance that doesn't translate to the NFL, and he's one of the 90%.

Said another way, just because one WR succeeds running a 4.75 40 in the NFL, it doesn't all of a sudden mean that that's a fine time for college players.  Most will still fail at that 40 time.

[Ovie_Lover]

Yeah let's grab the tubby weak linebacker!! Wooo!!! 13 bench reps!!!! Yeah!!!

[DMT11]

Trevathan is not the player this board and most media outlets think he is - thats why he got what he got money wise, if he was all that, plenty teams out there would have taken that 6 mil and laughed at it, dont say he gave up more money to play with john fox, hilarious

[atlGM]

11 minutes ago, takeitdown said:

 

Edited March 12, 2016 by atlGM

[atlGM]

4 minutes ago, DMT11 said:

Trevathan is not the player this board and most media outlets think he is - thats why he got what he got money wise, if he was all that, plenty teams out there would have taken that 6 mil and laughed at it, dont say he gave up more money to play with john fox, hilarious

it's been said that he may have still been dealing with a shoulder injury .he shows plenty of strength o tape tho

[Ezekiel 25:17]

43 minutes ago, WhenFalconsWin said:

I think Ragland will be like Lofton.  Not a bad thing, but not what we want in coverage and game speed.  

That is what I am envisioning as well. I think the guy can play in the league but he will not be a three down Back that can run sideline to sideline which is a bigger need and fit.

[SkerFalcon8710]

Ragland has eating issues and thatvis the last thing you want a guy youre drafting in the first round to have... The guy looked soft at the combine for someone you expect to look chisled and have a good physique 

[Lornoth]

Running around in shorts or spandex or whatever they wear now is different than in pads on the field. Trav is fast on the football field, Ragland is not. 

Though to be fair, I don't like Trav that much either, so...

[egoprime II]

Bench reps are not just a measure of strength, stamina and endurance.  To me, the low bench numbers show sloppiness in preparation and a lack of desire to be the best a player can be.  If a talented young player fails to show a desire to develop that talent when he is looking for that big payday, what do you think that player will be like once he -gets- that payday?  Lack of discipline as far as diet goes is a huge red flag as well.

Ragland would be a developmental pick.   Those types should be taken in the 3rd round on, not in the first two rounds.

[*Old Pappy Falcon*]

Crunch number's, Look at tape and size and strength. But above all in his favor, he posses the "it" factor.............we couldn't go wrong with that at all.