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These protestors, though...


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8 hours ago, GEORGIAfan said:

They did. John Podesta called it out yesterday. He is HFA's chair.

Lets also not forget that HRC and Bill get protested by the same groups. These are Bernie supporters or anarchists.

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HRC supprters having to do the walk of shame between protesters.

Remember when Donald Trump repeatedly refused to condemn his supporters who violently attacked protestors?  

Contrast that with Clinton's campaign immediately denouncing violence and attacks.

The supporters of both sides are getting out of hand and attacking supporters of the other side.  Only one of the campaigns has immediately and unequivocally denounced the attacks.

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22 minutes ago, Leon Troutsky said:

Does someone need to post the dozens of violent attacks by Trump supporters?  Do you generalize about all Trump supporters (primitives) like you do "libs"?

Nevermind, I know the answer.

I seen several retaliation events by Trump supporters in self-defense, and one punch thrown by an old man that was provoked.  Show us these "dozens of attacks by Trump supporters" at a Hillary or Bernie rally.  Go ahead I'll wait...

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2 hours ago, WhenFalconsWin said:

I seen several retaliation events by Trump supporters in self-defense, and one punch thrown by an old man that was provoked.  Show us these "dozens of attacks by Trump supporters" at a Hillary or Bernie rally.  Go ahead I'll wait...

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/03/02/a_list_of_violent_incidents_at_donald_trump_rallies_and_events.html

Here's a list.. Tell me which ones were "retaliation events by Trump supporters in self-defense"?  The AFrican-American woman who was shoved and called racial slurs?  And that "old man that was provoked" flat out sucker punched the black guy in the face.  There was no provocation that justified what he did.

At this point, your denial of these events along with your defense of what are obviously unprovoked attacks is beyond ridiculous.  There are over a dozen videos in that link staring you right in the face.  

But pretend that none of those happened, that the attacks which did occur were "self-defense", and that the only one you will acknowledge was "provoked".  Keep pretending that it's the "libs" who are doing all of this.  Keep pretending that anybody still takes the crap you say seriously. 

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1 hour ago, shc said:

How does one know that these violent protestors are dems/libs, and not just people who hate Trump?

One of the reporters tweets that I posted said that some of the people he talked to claimed to not support any candidate and were Anarchists, so I think it was a combination of people. Bernie supporters and opportunists.

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Anti-Trump rioting is counterproductive and wrong

 

Showing up at Donald Trump rallies looking for an opportunity to fight with Donald Trump supporters, set Trump merchandise on fire, chant Mexican nationalist slogans, get into scuffles with riot police, and throw eggs at people is a bad idea. It is wrong, morally speaking, to inflict physical violence on a random person because that person happens to hold what you see as erroneous political beliefs.

And while a Trump presidency is in some respects a threat to the rule of law and the American constitutional system, it is also a threat that is currently well-contained by the conventional political process. Trump is currently a very unpopular person, and if some large fraction of the people who currently don't like Trump show up on Election Day and vote for his opponent, then he will lose.

It is certainly true that in the course of human events, political situations arise that cannot be adequately remedied inside the context of the legal electoral process. But there's no reason to think that this particular situation is one of those situations, and people living in a democratic society have an obligation to attempt normal political strategies before resorting to extreme ones.

On the contrary, the evidence is fairly clear that illegal anti-Trump activities are not an "extreme" tactic that may be justified by an "extreme" situation — they are a straightforwardly counterproductive form of venting that people interested in actually stopping Trump ought to avoid.

In the 1960s, riots boosted Republican vote share

Princeton professor Omar Wasow has a relevant paper that examined county-level voting patterns in the 1960s. What he found is that exposure to nonviolent protests pushed people to vote for the more liberal presidential candidate, while exposure to violent ones pushed people to vote for the more conservative candidate.

The effect is large enough, according to Wasow, that the series of riots in 1968 swung the election to Richard Nixon:

How do the subordinate few persuade the dominant many? This article links nonviolent and violent tactics employed by socially marginal protesters to conditional feelings of empathy or threat in the voting majority. I test this argument by estimating effects of black-led protest movements in the 1960s on white attitudes and voting behavior. In the 1964, 1968 and 1972 presidential elections, I find proximity to black-led nonviolent protests was associated with significant increases in countylevel Democratic vote-share whereas proximity to black-led violent protests caused a substantively important decline. In counterfactual scenarios of Martin Luther King Jr. not being assassinated and fewer violent protests occurring before the 1968 election, the Democratic presidential nominee, Hubert Humphrey, would likely have beaten the Republican nominee, Richard Nixon. This research has important implications for existing theories of social movements, political violence and voting behavior.

To be clear, the scale of rioting in 1968 was drastically larger than anything we've seen related to the Trump campaign. A meaningful electoral impact would require a majorescalation of violence beyond what we've seen. But to the extent that clashes do ratchet up in scale, the evidence suggests they will help Trump.

UK riots boosted anti-immigrant sentiment

Looking to other Western countries, another perspective comes from Matt Goodwin, Mark Pickup, and Eline de Rooij, who looked at the 2011 riots in London. What they found is that exposure to rioting make people feel more threatened and pushed them to anti-immigration political views:

We were interested in seeing whether people felt more or less threatened after the riots. Feelings of ‘threat’ are especially important, as they have been shown to have powerful effects on public attitudes toward issues such as immigration and diversity, and also on voting behaviour. In short, if people feel more threatened then they are more likely to express prejudice toward other groups, favour more restrictive policies on issues such as immigration and support extremist parties.

At a broad level, our findings suggest that – in the aftermath of the riots – citizens felt more threatened. On the whole, respondents in our nationally representative sample were more likely to feel they were under threat after the riots. However, there are many different forms of threat. People may feel that their economic position is threatened, their security is threatened and/or that their wider society and culture is threatened. We found that not all forms of threat increased.

They find that there was no increase in perceived economic threat — people were not worried, in other words, that rioters were damaging their concrete material interests. Instead, the riots caused people to feel less physically secure and more concerned about British cultural decline.

The upshot was to shift people toward a more xenophobic politics:

This has had important consequences. Although people did not associate the riots with specific minority groups (whether Muslim/Black/East European communities), they were more prejudiced in their aftermath. Those who felt afterwards that their security was under greater threat were more likely to express hostile attitudes toward Muslims. Meanwhile, those who felt afterwards that wider British society and culture were under greater threat were more likely to express hostility toward Muslims and also Black and East European communities. So, whereas the riots were not associated in the public mindset with particular minority groups, they have nonetheless increased prejudice in British society.

The UK and the US are different countries, and findings from one may not carry over to the other. But the broad structural situation seems similar, and the evidence suggests that politicized disorder pushes people toward more Trump-style politics.

Leftists are playing with fire here

A few left-wing commentators, alienated from mainstream liberalism by a mix of ideological conviction and annoyance at the course of the 2016 primary, have decided that the time is right for contrarian takes on this.

Amber A'Lee Frost, for example, says that given liberal alarm about the possible implications of a Trump presidency, it's hypocritical to condemn a street-fighting response:

 

 

Dems, Lib Media: Trump is the end of the world!
Ppl: We'll fight em in the streets!
D,LM: Wait we just meant write thinkpieces & vote for us

 
 

 

 

And Corey Robin argues political violence is sometimes a useful tactic:

 

 

 

I have no idea whether this account of Chilean history is accurate. But these lines of argument strike me as clearly inapplicable to the actual political situation in the United States in 2016. Donald Trump is currently viewed unfavorably by 58 percent of the population, and he's losing in general election polling by 4 or 5 percentage points. Trump is not a military dictator or even the holder of any office at all.

I majored in philosophy in college and am happy to agree that it might be fun to debate a thought experiment in which throwing eggs at random rally-goers and setting hats on fire was the only thing stopping the democratic election of a fascist politician.

But none of the factual predicates for that thought experiment are true, so there's little point in confusing people about the actual stakes. Conventional politics is very likely to beat Trump, and a rising tide of lawlessness is one of his more plausible routes to winning.

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1 minute ago, Billy Ocean said:

^^^Written by Matthew Yglesias, who is now worried that some leftists feel that political violence is sometimes a useful tactic.

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I'm sure Mr. Yglesias wouldn't think it is such a great tactic if it were the conservatives practicing these "symbolic acts" on the left's rallies.  

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7 minutes ago, WhenFalconsWin said:

I'm sure Mr. Yglesias wouldn't think it is such a great tactic if it were the conservatives practicing these "symbolic acts" on the left's rallies.  

matt likes to be contrarian until **** hits the fan. He tried to argue that rubio was more dangerous than Trump until the first instance of violence happened.

 

I can't be contrarian about Donald Trump anymore: he's terrifying

I was a liberal Donald Trump apologist. Not a liberal enjoying the chaos Trump was sowing in the Republican Party, but someone who welcomed his ideological heterodoxy. It was a step away from the cliff of endless polarization that offered a more moderate substantive agenda than Marco Rubio's. I held on to that conviction through Friday's protest violence and Saturday's torrent of "enough is enough" takes.

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1 minute ago, GEORGIAfan said:

matt likes to be contrarian until **** hits the fan. He tried to argue that rubio was more dangerous than Trump until the first instance of violence happened.

 

I can't be contrarian about Donald Trump anymore: he's terrifying

I was a liberal Donald Trump apologist. Not a liberal enjoying the chaos Trump was sowing in the Republican Party, but someone who welcomed his ideological heterodoxy. It was a step away from the cliff of endless polarization that offered a more moderate substantive agenda than Marco Rubio's. I held on to that conviction through Friday's protest violence and Saturday's torrent of "enough is enough" takes.

Why even post his stuff then?

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6 minutes ago, Billy Ocean said:

Remember back a few months ago when there was that "Hunting Hitler" thread the mods had to delete when Mashburn-Fibonnaci said people shouldn't be so hard on the Nazis because they had a lot of good ideas? VHF77.gif

that was hilarious

sure Hitler was a psychotic mass murdering bastid who attempted to commit genocide on Jews in Europe, but he had his good points

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12 hours ago, Leon Troutsky said:

Does someone need to post the dozens of violent attacks by Trump supporters?  Do you generalize about all Trump supporters (primitives) like you do "libs"?

Nevermind, I know the answer.

Dozens of violent attacks by Trump supporters.  As opposed to this incident, where there were dozens of violent attacks all in one place.  

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2 hours ago, marla_mulder said:

If you're referring to Podesta's tweet, I felt that it was done for show - something they knew they had to say or people would criticize them. There was no real, harsh condemnation of what's going on...just more mealy-mouthed politician speak that really amounts to nothing.

I will readily admit I hate HRC, so maybe my bias is showing, but I wasn't impressed with the "denouncing" of these attacks.

* Demands politicians denounce attacks *

* Politician denounces attacks *

* They didn't denounce it hard enough *

 

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