Sorry but Darren Lee really isn't good in coverage

[g-dawg]

5 hours ago, Bobby.Digital said:

 

Most people here don't even watch film. They look at production and athleticism and that's it. See how anyone here isn't really pointing out anything on film. The Ogbah thread is another example. 

These were exact same criticisms and analysis  on Anthony Barr on TATF before his draft two years ago - I joined the masses  then - and thru two years, I believe Barry proved TATF wrong.

[DoYouSeeWhatHappensLarry]

I watched two Lee games last night - I wasn't impressed at all. Other than the occasional athletic flash, I saw a lot of uninspiring play. I am going to re-watch and watch other games for sure but I was hoping for more. All I saw was a player that's light in the ***, doesnt cover as well as he "should" and someone who was slow to read and react, snap after snap. 

[DoYouSeeWhatHappensLarry]

3 hours ago, g-dawg said:

These were exact same criticisms and analysis  on Anthony Barr on TATF before his draft two years ago - I joined the masses  then - and thru two years, I believe Barry proved TATF wrong.

Again, only after two games, but Barr's tape was light years ahead of Lee's from what I've seen. Like...no comparison. 

[g-dawg]

10 minutes ago, DoYouSeeWhatHappensLarry said:

I watched two Lee games last night - I wasn't impressed at all. Other than the occasional athletic flash, I saw a lot of uninspiring play. I am going to re-watch and watch other games for sure but I was hoping for more. All I saw was a player that's light in the ***, doesnt cover as well as he "should" and someone who was slow to read and react, snap after snap. 

Lee is kind of that "tweener" player between LB and SS.   You get a premier sideline-to-sideline guy who is decent in coverage and you sacrifice a little in run stopping.   Same with Deion Jones and Su'a Cravens.  Ragland is exact opposite - demon run defender but he is not going to be a plus in pass defense.

Right now, I feel Falcons best move (granted, it is very early in process!) would be:

Free Agency:

Danny Trevathan, MLB

Stefan Wisniewski, C

NFL Draft:

1st) Shaq Lawson, DE

2nd) OLB -  Darron Lee(gone), Sua Cravens(maybe available), or Deion Jones (probably available)

Something along those lines.

[DoYouSeeWhatHappensLarry]

Just now, g-dawg said:

Lee is kind of that "tweener" player between LB and SS.   You get a premier sideline-to-sideline guy who is good in coverage and you sacrifice a little in run stopping.   Same with Deion Jones and Su'a Cravens.  Ragland is exact opposite - demon run defender but he is not going to be a plus in pass defense.

Right now, I feel Falcons best move (granted, it is very early in process!) would be:

Free Agency:

Danny Trevathan, MLB

Stefan Wisniewski, C

NFL Draft:

1st) Shaq Lawson, DE

2nd) OLB -  Darron Lee(gone), Sua Cravens(maybe available), or Deion Jones (probably available)

Something along those lines.

See, I don't know that you're getting a premier S-2-S guy. I'm not sure his mental game allows him to be S-2-S at the NFL level. At least not yet. If you think he can get there (while maybe adding another 10 lbs) then thats one thing. But he doesnt play with anything near the violence and power of the better hybrid DB/backers in the league. Size doesnt really matter if you're laying the wood. But Lee doesnt seem to be a sound tackler, doesnt hit big, and just sort of runs around. 

If he were a R2 selection, that would be much much better. I'm just not sure he makes it to ~48 (where the **** are we picking in 2nd? 49?)

[g-dawg]

Just now, DoYouSeeWhatHappensLarry said:

See, I don't know that you're getting a premier S-2-S guy. I'm not sure his mental game allows him to be S-2-S at the NFL level. At least not yet. If you think he can get there (while maybe adding another 10 lbs) then thats one thing. But he doesnt play with anything near the violence and power of the better hybrid DB/backers in the league. Size doesnt really matter if you're laying the wood. But Lee doesnt seem to be a sound tackler, doesnt hit big, and just sort of runs around. 

If he were a R2 selection, that would be much much better. I'm just not sure he makes it to ~48 (where the **** are we picking in 2nd? 49?)

picking #50 in 2nd round.

[g-dawg]

10 minutes ago, DoYouSeeWhatHappensLarry said:

See, I don't know that you're getting a premier S-2-S guy. I'm not sure his mental game allows him to be S-2-S at the NFL level. At least not yet. If you think he can get there (while maybe adding another 10 lbs) then thats one thing. But he doesnt play with anything near the violence and power of the better hybrid DB/backers in the league. Size doesnt really matter if you're laying the wood. But Lee doesnt seem to be a sound tackler, doesnt hit big, and just sort of runs around. 

If he were a R2 selection, that would be much much better. I'm just not sure he makes it to ~48 (where the **** are we picking in 2nd? 49?)

OVERVIEW

Lee's never been short on confidence, proclaiming to teammates that he was the one to take over for 2014 first-round pick Ryan Shazier in the Buckeyes' defense -- even though he was only a year removed from starring as a quarterback and cornerback in high school. He wound up starting all 15 games in that redshirt freshman year for the national champion Buckeyes, earning multiple Freshman All-American accolades with 81 tackles, 16.5 tackles for loss and 7.5 sacks. Lee truly hit the national stage by terrorizing Alabama in the Sugar Bowl, receiving Defensive MVP honors with seven tackles, three for loss, and two sacks. His play as a sophomore was just as good, tracking down ball carriers 66 times, 11 for a loss and 4.5 sacks on his way to second-team All-Big Ten accolades from league coaches (third team media).

ANALYSIS

STRENGTHS

 Quick to diagnose and flow to the ball. Has unusual ability to find the most efficient routes to the ball. Has athleticism and flexibility to contort his body and succeed through difficult tackle angles. Plays with loose hips, quick feet and desired agility of an NFL weak-side linebacker. Former high school quarterback with the change of direction and speed to be a rangy playmaker. Comfortable in space and excels there. Has plus man cover talent. Willing to stand in and take on blockers with a leveraged strike if his gap is being threatened. Capable gap blitzer with ability to get skinny through the holes.

WEAKNESSES

 Smallish linebacker. Play strength doesn't come close to matching puffed up listed weight. Balance issues at point of attack could plague him over his NFL career. Has the body type of a big safety. Tape shows few authoritative tackles. Involved in too many arm and shoestring tackles. Comes flying in and fails to come to balance at times. Charged with 21 missed and five broken tackles over the last two seasons. Always at size disadvantage and will have to learn to slip more blocks. Can get better at finding targets in zone coverage.

NFL COMPARISON

 Zach Brown

BOTTOM LINE

 Lee's level of NFL success might very well be tied to scheme fit and his ability to add more muscle to his frame. His athletic traits and ability to make plays should make him a starter, but he won't unlock his full potential unless he gets strong enough to handle the rigors of an NFL linebacker.

[g-dawg]

^^^NFL.com scouting report gives credence to some of your criticisms but then lists lots of plusses that you crap on as saying they are not accurate.

I would say the reality is somewhere in between the glowing analysis on TATF right now and your debbie-downer assessment.

There is no question in my mind that Darron Lee is a talent and possesses qualities we need on our football team - the question - in my mind - is - is he the most bang for our buck at #17 overall.     My answer right now is "NO" but I could be swayed - it is a close call in my mind.

[DoYouSeeWhatHappensLarry]

I saw that which means I have to go back and watch again. But I also found some scouting reports that mention the stuff I'm seeing. Here's a perfect way to describe what I thought I saw (again...only in two games, albeit 2015 games against strong competition)

http://withthefirstpick.com/2016/01/12/2016-nfl-draft-scouting-reports-ohio-states-darron-lee-2016-scouting-report/

"

Lee also has a tendency to play hesitant and appears not to trust his reads. He’ll stand flat-footed after the snap where he then reacts a few steps later than the other defenders on the field. Lee is able to still make an impact because he has the explosiveness to overcome his slow reads.

However, there are plenty of situations where he’s a step late and allows the running back to pick up big chunks of yardage. This problem will only get more exposed at the NFL level as the offensive lineman and running backs have better athleticism and football IQ.

"

[DoYouSeeWhatHappensLarry]

And it could be the contrast of having watched a lot of Jaylon Smith prior to the bad news about his foot drop. I mean, you turn on Smith tape and that dude is read and react allllll day. Constantly on his toes, few false steps, constantly breaking toward the ball and almost always in position. Lee didnt show any of that at all. The plays he made were flash plays based on his athleticism. And those are great things to have. But this defense can't afford to have LBs that put one "wow" play on the tape for every 4 plays they miss. We already have one of those...