ShanghaiDirtyBird Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 Who usually takes on the nose guard when defenses run 3-4? I'm sure on different plays the linemen have different responsibilities, but generally who is responsible for who? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falconsd56 Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 Good topic. The very nature of the Zone scheme is that it is not a matter of who....but a matter of where. Say the nose is shaded to the weak side A gap. And we are running a stretch play to the strong side.... Generally the center is going to the have the zone that would include the strong side A gap and so many yards up field in that for the sseond level. And the guard is going to have the weak side A which probably means the guard is going to have the nose. Like I said the zone system gives the line a zone to block and not so much a particular man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShanghaiDirtyBird Posted February 16, 2016 Author Share Posted February 16, 2016 53 minutes ago, falconsd56 said: Good topic. The very nature of the Zone scheme is that it is not a matter of who....but a matter of where. Say the nose is shaded to the weak side A gap. And we are running a stretch play to the strong side.... Generally the center is going to the have the zone that would include the strong side A gap and so many yards up field in that for the sseond level. And the guard is going to have the weak side A which probably means the guard is going to have the nose. Like I said the zone system gives the line a zone to block and not so much a particular man. So in a more traditional power blocking scheme, each lineman is going to account for a man. But, you're saying that in a zone blocking scheme, each offensive lineman is going to account for a particular zone. So when a defense goes up against a zone blocking team, how does that change how they play it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E. T. Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 9 minutes ago, ShanghaiDirtyBird said: So in a more traditional power blocking scheme, each lineman is going to account for a man. But, you're saying that in a zone blocking scheme, each offensive lineman is going to account for a particular zone. So when a defense goes up against a zone blocking team, how does that change how they play it? The defensive line would generally have to be disciplined in their gaps, shed blocks, contain the front and backsides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin_Pernett Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 I ran an outside and inside zone blocking scheme 2 years ago in high school. Really comes down to blocking the next guy over during the play. If it was a run outside to the right and a blitzing linebacker came up between the 0 technique and the 3 tech then the left guard would block the 0 tech because he is in his zone to the right. The center would block the blitzing linebacker because he is in his zone to the right and the right guard would get the three tech. Now this would change if the defenders stunted and went into different gaps than they lined up in. If the linebacker and 3 tech twisted and the 3 tech came in the a gap and the linebacker went to the b gap then the center would get the 3 tech and the right guard would get the linebacker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeytonMannings Forehead Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 1 minute ago, Colin_Pernett said: I ran an outside and inside zone blocking scheme 2 years ago in high school. Really comes down to blocking the next guy over during the play. If it was a run outside to the right and a blitzing linebacker came up between the 0 technique and the 3 tech then the left guard would block the 0 tech because he is in his zone to the right. The center would block the blitzing linebacker because he is in his zone to the right and the right guard would get the three tech. Now this would change if the defenders stunted and went into different gaps than they lined up in. If the linebacker and 3 tech twisted and the 3 tech came in the a gap and the linebacker went to the b gap then the center would get the 3 tech and the right guard would get the linebacker. Did you all have any pin and pull elements to your scheme? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin_Pernett Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 49 minutes ago, ShanghaiDirtyBird said: So in a more traditional power blocking scheme, each lineman is going to account for a man. But, you're saying that in a zone blocking scheme, each offensive lineman is going to account for a particular zone. So when a defense goes up against a zone blocking team, how does that change how they play it? Well the zone is going to be going the direction of the runner most likely so the defender needs to make sure to prevent the offensive lineman from getting to his outside shoulder toward the side the play is going. They need to make sure they don't get pushed back off the line of scrimmage and let the offensive lineman lead them to the ball where they disengage from the block and break towards the ball Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin_Pernett Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 49 minutes ago, ShanghaiDirtyBird said: So in a more traditional power blocking scheme, each lineman is going to account for a man. But, you're saying that in a zone blocking scheme, each offensive lineman is going to account for a particular zone. So when a defense goes up against a zone blocking team, how does that change how they play it? Well the zone is going to be going the direction of the runner most likely so the defender needs to make sure to prevent the offensive lineman from getting to his outside shoulder toward the side the play is going. They need to make sure they don't get pushed back off the line of scrimmage and let the offensive lineman lead them to the ball where they disengage from the block and break towards the ball Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin_Pernett Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 39 minutes ago, PeytonMannings Forehead said: Did you all have any pin and pull elements to your scheme? Yeah I think. We didn't call it that though. If it's when the strong side blocks away from the play to wash the defenders away and the backside guard pulls and gets the first unblocked man playside then yeah. To defend that you have to recognize that someone is pulling and try to get penetration and push the pulling guard out of his pulling lane and let the guy he would be blocking go free or if you can't do that just run parallel to the LOS with the guard because almost every time that is where the ball is going Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeytonMannings Forehead Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 3 hours ago, Colin_Pernett said: Yeah I think. We didn't call it that though. If it's when the strong side blocks away from the play to wash the defenders away and the backside guard pulls and gets the first unblocked man playside then yeah. To defend that you have to recognize that someone is pulling and try to get penetration and push the pulling guard out of his pulling lane and let the guy he would be blocking go free or if you can't do that just run parallel to the LOS with the guard because almost every time that is where the ball is going Yeah, that's it. Combining a pulling lineman with zbs is a total b*tvh to defend because the way it can throw off the linebackers' keys. Good stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeytonMannings Forehead Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 Just to get a little visual, here are a couple gif of it in action. Ideally you want that lateral movement, and cut off the backside pursuit. That's usually where the big runs come from in this scheme Here it is vs. an Over front. And here it is vs. a two gapping Odd front. When you get it going good, it can be **** on linebackers and the fits up front, because you're almost always wrong. You have to pursue quick to make sure you're not cut off. But if you pursue too fast, you get washed down and the runner cuts back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falconsd56 Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 12 minutes ago, PeytonMannings Forehead said: Yeah, that's it. Combining a pulling lineman with zbs is a total b*tvh to defend because the way it can throw off the linebackers' keys. Good stuff. This is true.....the downside to it is that as we saw this past year, if you can put pressure on the gaps you can throw everything off.... Well timed stunts and run blitzing is the way to beat a zone system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeytonMannings Forehead Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 2 minutes ago, falconsd56 said: This is true.....the downside to it is that as we saw this past year, if you can put pressure on the gaps you can throw everything off.... Well timed stunts and run blitzing is the way to beat a zone system. Yep. The answer is always quick penetration up front. That's why I like one gapping defenses. And that's why I always like to see some of that pin and pull element in the blocking scheme to counter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin_Pernett Posted February 16, 2016 Share Posted February 16, 2016 (edited) http://imgur.com/oWVR44R sorry gif won't post And here's an example of us zone blocking right against a 3-4. Everyone on the line goes right and Dimarco blocks first man coming through on the left. Nobody goes into Person's zone so he is able to just find someone to block clearing up a hole for Devonta who had to make a quick decision to hit the hole with good burst and then all he has to do is beat the safety to the end zone. Really zone blocking is absolutely perfect for Devonta's skillset. And here is one against a 4-3. They get penetration on Chester which could ruin the play but great cut blocks by Dimarco and Shraeder take two defenders on the right side of the play and Devonta is able to quickly hit the hole they made before the penetration allowed by Chester ruins the run. And here's an example of us zone blocking right against a 3-4. Everyone on the line goes right and Dimarco blocks first man coming through on the left. Nobody goes into Person's zone so he is able to just find someone to block clearing up a hole for Devonta who had to make a quick decision to hit the hole with good burst and then all he has to do is beat the safety to the end zone. Really zone blocking is absolutely perfect for Devonta's skillset. And here is one against a 4-3. They get penetration on Chester which could ruin the play but great cut blocks by Dimarco and Shraeder take two defenders on the right side of the play and Devonta is able to quickly hit the hole they made before the penetration allowed by Chester ruins the run. Edited February 16, 2016 by Colin_Pernett Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falconsd56 Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 2 hours ago, PeytonMannings Forehead said: Yep. The answer is always quick penetration up front. That's why I like one gapping defenses. And that's why I always like to see some of that pin and pull element in the blocking scheme to counter. That helps but even that has it's problems When you have pulling linemen you are creating a natural hole on the line . It is why it is of the utmost importance to have all 5 linemen, the TE and any blocking back all working in unison....because when they do and teams get too aggressive shooting the gap it creates cutback lanes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Old Pappy Falcon* Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 It doesn't.........Shanahan just think's it does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sui_Generis Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 (edited) Carry on people. This is some fantastic and actual football talk going on. Thank you. Edited February 17, 2016 by Sui_Generis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeytonMannings Forehead Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 3 hours ago, Colin_Pernett said: http://imgur.com/oWVR44R sorry gif won't post And here's an example of us zone blocking right against a 3-4. Everyone on the line goes right and Dimarco blocks first man coming through on the left. Nobody goes into Person's zone so he is able to just find someone to block clearing up a hole for Devonta who had to make a quick decision to hit the hole with good burst and then all he has to do is beat the safety to the end zone. Really zone blocking is absolutely perfect for Devonta's skillset. This is a good gif. Good design to the play. Dimarco's wham block completely threw off Brian Cushing's read. Looks like he was keying the near back, which was Dimarco. Cushing scraped with him and took himself out of the play and lane opened up where he should have been. Good illustration to show there's all kinds of creative things you can do, whether it's by formation, or personnel to get the scheme to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeytonMannings Forehead Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 2 hours ago, falconsd56 said: That helps but even that has it's problems When you have pulling linemen you are creating a natural hole on the line . It is why it is of the utmost importance to have all 5 linemen, the TE and any blocking back all working in unison....because when they do and teams get too aggressive shooting the gap it creates cutback lanes No doubt. That's where the pin element comes in. Really helps if you've got a smart center. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falconsd56 Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 39 minutes ago, PeytonMannings Forehead said: No doubt. That's where the pin element comes in. Really helps if you've got a smart center. Yup. You can get by if you have the QB calling the line protections but that is A LOT to ask of a QB. That was Konz's single biggest issue....... People say he was small and weak ... he was neither.... it was the fact he struggled MIGHTILY with line calls and it lead to so much confusion...that and his pad level. But more so than anything else the nfl game seemed to be too big for his head........which happens to a lot of guys. Having a reliable smart center could help us win 2 more games.....it is THAT big of a deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falconsd56 Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 4 hours ago, Colin_Pernett said: http://imgur.com/oWVR44R sorry gif won't post And here's an example of us zone blocking right against a 3-4. Everyone on the line goes right and Dimarco blocks first man coming through on the left. Nobody goes into Person's zone so he is able to just find someone to block clearing up a hole for Devonta who had to make a quick decision to hit the hole with good burst and then all he has to do is beat the safety to the end zone. Really zone blocking is absolutely perfect for Devonta's skillset. And here is one against a 4-3. They get penetration on Chester which could ruin the play but great cut blocks by Dimarco and Shraeder take two defenders on the right side of the play and Devonta is able to quickly hit the hole they made before the penetration allowed by Chester ruins the run. And here's an example of us zone blocking right against a 3-4. Everyone on the line goes right and Dimarco blocks first man coming through on the left. Nobody goes into Person's zone so he is able to just find someone to block clearing up a hole for Devonta who had to make a quick decision to hit the hole with good burst and then all he has to do is beat the safety to the end zone. Really zone blocking is absolutely perfect for Devonta's skillset. And here is one against a 4-3. They get penetration on Chester which could ruin the play but great cut blocks by Dimarco and Shraeder take two defenders on the right side of the play and Devonta is able to quickly hit the hole they made before the penetration allowed by Chester ruins the run. Great gif.... thanks for showing that,, it is the perfect illustration of what I mean by unison Everyone worked on the same page.... the line, Dimarco.... **** even Roddy putting in work on the edge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin_Pernett Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 4 hours ago, Old Pappy falcon said: It doesn't.........Shanahan just think's it does. The offense worked fine. Turnovers were the only problem albeit an enormous problem but Shannahan isn't the one snapping the ball or the one making poor decisions when throwing the ball. Blocking scheme was a big strong point for the team I think. If we were running a power blocking scheme Devonta couldn't have been nearly as successful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin_Pernett Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 2 hours ago, falconsd56 said: Yup. You can get by if you have the QB calling the line protections but that is A LOT to ask of a QB. That was Konz's single biggest issue....... People say he was small and weak ... he was neither.... it was the fact he struggled MIGHTILY with line calls and it lead to so much confusion...that and his pad level. But more so than anything else the nfl game seemed to be too big for his head........which happens to a lot of guys. Having a reliable smart center could help us win 2 more games.....it is THAT big of a deal. Yeah I think we are really close to having a great offensive line. Gotta get a true center to lead the offensive line and make the necessary calls. Going back and looking at some running plays in order to contribute to this thread I noticed Chester was usually the one doing the worst so another good guard is pretty important. But other than that I think we are poised to make a truly great line that can really raise the level of the offense to super bowl caliber heights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwifalcon Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 4 hours ago, falconsd56 said: Yup. You can get by if you have the QB calling the line protections but that is A LOT to ask of a QB. That was Konz's single biggest issue....... People say he was small and weak ... he was neither.... it was the fact he struggled MIGHTILY with line calls and it lead to so much confusion...that and his pad level. But more so than anything else the nfl game seemed to be too big for his head........which happens to a lot of guys. Having a reliable smart center could help us win 2 more games.....it is THAT big of a deal. Slightly off topic but why did they cross train him at G if he could'nt get the mental game at C right. I've always been completely against cross training rookies especially kids from small schools who have came up with lesser competition hence why I believe why I also believe that Holmes so wildly inconsistent. Great thread and F/ball talk here aswell guys have to say from the trash that has been on the board of late this thread is a beauty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShanghaiDirtyBird Posted February 17, 2016 Author Share Posted February 17, 2016 5 hours ago, Sui_Generis said: Carry on people. This is some fantastic and actual football talk going on. Thank you. It all starts with a good question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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