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Islam and it's early contributions to America


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20 hours ago, eatcorn said:

There are clashing cultures everywhere, including many within the United States. We are a melting pot of different cultures, and your apparent call for cultural homogeny is in direct contrast to the founding principles of the United States. Again, you're capitulating with the stated aim of terrorism. You're committing clear fallacies based on religious faith and national origin in an effort to disparage millions of innocent people. We are not experiencing anything near the volume and type of refugee influx they're experiencing in Europe, so you're not even making a valid comparison. The greater good is not a delusion, it's a functioning and coherent way to approach other human beings and the world.

Your appeal to 'common sense' is another example of a purely subjective way of justifying a fallacious argument. 'I don't care if we abandon our guiding principles, I'm scared and look at the rapists! It's just common sense!'

I'd also suggest your shut your ******* mouth about people 'not caring if women are raped '. My wife was carjacked and raped by 3 men, and left for dead in a field, only to crawl her way to safety, and, ultimately, a life of happiness and joy. So, I definitely care about women being raped. I'm even able to acknowledge the disgusting numbers of American women who are sexually assaulted every day without uttering the fallacious guilt by association fallacy that 'Americans are rapists'. Look at the statistics...then apply your generalization to Americans. You won't, because 'common sense', right?

Maybe you should think a little more about the people you're ACTUALLY addressing instead of the people you imagine them to be...much like you do with Muslims and Syrians.

Unless you're an European leader making these decisions, **** off. That statement was not directed at you or anyone else here. It was directed at those making these decisions for the citizens they purport to represent. That said, that's horrifying, I honestly could not be more sorry for what your wife, and you went through.

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6 minutes ago, silentbob1272 said:

Unless you're an European leader making these decisions, **** off. That statement was not directed at you or anyone else here. It was directed at those making these decisions for the citizens they purport to represent. That said, that's horrifying, I honestly could not be more sorry for what your wife, and you went through.

Well said. No body would want to go through a rape nightmare. It's beyond horrible and the people of Europe deserve safety, and they are throwing their own people to the wolves.

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2 hours ago, eatcorn said:

What does that have to do with the discussion?

That you seemed to take a comment that was in no way directed at you as a personal affront. I'm not going to argue this point with you because I have no wish in inadvertently insult (again) someone who has gone through what you and  your family have, but my opinion of those in power that are allowing and permitting this to happen remains unchanged. 

Again, I did not mean to in any way belittle what your wife went through. I am very sorry.

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59 minutes ago, silentbob1272 said:

That you seemed to take a comment that was in no way directed at you as a personal affront. I'm not going to argue this point with you because I have no wish in inadvertently insult (again) someone who has gone through what you and  your family have, but my opinion of those in power that are allowing and permitting this to happen remains unchanged. 

Again, I did not mean to in any way belittle what your wife went through. I am very sorry.

I don't think you did. My point is that you are suggesting that people in power don't care about rape when many of those people HAVE been through my family has been through. Some of them HAVE been raped, or know someone who was raped. Suggesting that they 'don't care' about rape just because they believe in giving shelter and aid to displaced refugees is callous, especially when confronted with the disgusting statistics about sexual assault in America. You just make these terrible assumptions about them because you don't know them. You do so often.

If refugees from Muslim and Arab nations can be called rapists because of a high incidence of sexual assault among their group, then, using that same reasoning, 'Americans' are rapists.

Grouping an entire people together by the worst of the group is fallacious. When one does it to deny people basic human safety, it's immoral, When one does it to lazily disparage a group of people, it's foolish and bigoted. No amount of appeals to 'common sense' changes that. You're essentially trying to prop up anti-Arab and anti-Muslim bigotry with an endless litany of generalizations about whole groups of people. I used myself as an example to point out that you have no idea who you are talking about when you say these things.

Every Syrian has to live in a country where they are loosely governed by a murderer, or subject to the violence of a murderous death cult. Knowing this, I don't understand how ANYONE could fail to sympathize with their situation. And Syrian men are required to join the military, so if you're of age, you serve...or you die. Your options are, essentially, what manner in which you want your life to end. Many people choose to flee to what they hope is safety, via means that are anything but safe. If any of us were in their shoes, I would hope we would try to figure out how to flee, and then how to get our families out of Syria. And you're calling these people rapists and terrorists? They're just people!

Do you have any idea how much money it costs just to leave Syria? Most people don't have the kind of money it takes just to get to Italy or Greece, much less the US. So the people we're seeing come to the US are likely the richest Syrians, who have the time and resources to wait for and pay for entry to the US. So, while judging people who are in a living **** as rapists and terrorists, people are simultaneously refusing the allow Syrians entry into the US. Where is your compassion?

I read this article recently, and found it interesting http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/10/26/ten-borders

The man in the article? I don't think he's a rapist or a terrorist. I guess you might.

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Tell me Eatcorn. We have all these incidents of rape and gang activity. It seems as though the governments don't care. I cannot see any other justification of allowing a nation to come under attack for the sake of resettlement. 1 family, 1 death, 1 rape is 1 too many. Our government is condoning the behavior by allowing the refugee's and open boarders. We've seen 100's of deaths, law enforcement included from our own stupid allowances.

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12 minutes ago, dirtyhairy said:

Tell me Eatcorn. We have all these incidents of rape and gang activity. It seems as though the governments don't care. I cannot see any other justification of allowing a nation to come under attack for the sake of resettlement. 1 family, 1 death, 1 rape is 1 too many. Our government is condoning the behavior by allowing the refugee's and open boarders. We've seen 100's of deaths, law enforcement included from our own stupid allowances.

So your solution is to cut off all immigration from all countries.  Because there is always the risk of a bad apple getting through.  As you said...1 family, 1 death, 1 rape is 1 too many.  So why take any chance from anyone from anywhere?

Sounds reasonable.

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17 minutes ago, dirtyhairy said:

Tell me Eatcorn. We have all these incidents of rape and gang activity. It seems as though the governments don't care. I cannot see any other justification of allowing a nation to come under attack for the sake of resettlement. 1 family, 1 death, 1 rape is 1 too many. Our government is condoning the behavior by allowing the refugee's and open boarders. We've seen 100's of deaths, law enforcement included from our own stupid allowances.

Is the US condoning the ridiculous amounts of sexual assaults and rapes that we have in our own country?

Never mind. I know talking to you is a complete waste of time.

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4 minutes ago, Leon Troutsky said:

So your solution is to cut off all immigration from all countries.  Because there is always the risk of a bad apple getting through.  As you said...1 family, 1 death, 1 rape is 1 too many.  So why take any chance from anyone from anywhere?

Sounds reasonable.

We had a legal immigration practice. I have been through it. It worked, our country knows who is here. Now, we opened the doors without a clue to who, what's coming in. We also are know shuttling in refugee's with zero thought or knowledge of who we are bringing in. Sorry, 1 life isn't worth it. But the left allows abortion so no one expects you guys to understand.

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I've said I don't want to engage in this with you, but if you wish to, fine with me, but you can't have it both ways. You know we're not going to agree on this, either argue objectively or personally. To dip in and out of both is unfair. I do not want to be seen as deriding a very personal and tragic experience, I would never do so intentionally, but you already took one very broad statement extremely personally. 

Screw it, I'll just say that I think you are as off base in your assumptions as much as you think I am in mine and leave it at that. I don't think many of the things you've stated that I do.

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6 minutes ago, dirtyhairy said:

We had a legal immigration practice. I have been through it. It worked, our country knows who is here. Now, we opened the doors without a clue to who, what's coming in. We also are know shuttling in refugee's with zero thought or knowledge of who we are bringing in. Sorry, 1 life isn't worth it. But the left allows abortion so no one expects you guys to understand.

Factually incorrect.  This is the process used for Syrian refugees.  It's longer and more extensive than the regular immigration process, which you supposedly :snicker: went through yourself.

wh_blog_refugee_workflow_1125.jpg

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You can't say things like 'people don't care about rape' and act as though that's some kind of objective statement that doesn't have any personal meaning to it. It's insulting. Not to me, because I know that you don't intend to insult me, but it's insulting to the countless people who have lived through rape...but somehow 'don't care'?

If you're going to say people don't care about rape, then own the statement. You said it. And I'm saying that you're most certainly saying that about people who have been raped, or are close to people who have been raped. You can't just say 'they don't care' and then duck out when statistics refute your assumption.

Maybe these people are able to see beyond their personal pain and understand that it's wrong to generalize about entire groups of people based on the actions of the worst of them. Just maybe. And just maybe you can see clear to the idea that a lot of people care about the countless innocent Syrians, Muslims and Arabs who have nowhere to turn for safety and compassion. Or, you can choose to continue a fallacious line of reasoning in order to avoid simple, thoughtful concern.

I'd like to know which of my assumptions you think are off base?

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Trout, you haven't a clue what I've been through and I can tell you for a fact. The syrian refugee's haven't been through a nickle of these steps. Lets also dispense with the idea that our wide open borders allow for any vetting. We have god knows who coming through our borders and death, destruction, rape and pillage have all been realized with the illegal Non action of protecting our borders and towns. 

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3 minutes ago, eatcorn said:

Is the US condoning the ridiculous amounts of sexual assaults and rapes that we have in our own country?

Never mind. I know talking to you is a complete waste of time.

There are about 293,000 sexual assaults in the U.S. per year. One is too many, but in a country of 300,000,000 that equals 0.1%

Again any are too many, but your "ridiculous amounts of sexual assaults and rapes that we have in our own country" statement is just not factually comparative to what is happening in these refugee camps.

Also, stop pretending that those that disagree with you on this are un-American or aren't familiar with the ideals of the country. Our estimation of what is needed to protect our families differs from yours, no more, no less. 

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1 minute ago, silentbob1272 said:

There are about 293,000 sexual assaults in the U.S. per year. One is too many, but in a country of 300,000,000 that equals 0.1%

Again any are too many, but your "ridiculous amounts of sexual assaults and rapes that we have in our own country" statement is just not factually comparative to what is happening in these refugee camps.

Also, stop pretending that those that disagree with you on this are un-American or aren't familiar with the ideals of the country. Our estimation of what is needed to protect our families differs from yours, no more, no less. 

More CCW permits and a solid firearm education program would cut down on a lot of this nonsense.

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8 minutes ago, eatcorn said:

You can't say things like 'people don't care about rape' and act as though that's some kind of objective statement that doesn't have any personal meaning to it. It's insulting. Not to me, because I know that you don't intend to insult me, but it's insulting to the countless people who have lived through rape...but somehow 'don't care'?

If you're going to say people don't care about rape, then own the statement. You said it. And I'm saying that you're most certainly saying that about people who have been raped, or are close to people who have been raped. You can't just say 'they don't care' and then duck out when statistics refute your assumption.

Maybe these people are able to see beyond their personal pain and understand that it's wrong to generalize about entire groups of people based on the actions of the worst of them. Just maybe. And just maybe you can see clear to the idea that a lot of people care about the countless innocent Syrians, Muslims and Arabs who have nowhere to turn for safety and compassion. Or, you can choose to continue a fallacious line of reasoning in order to avoid simple, thoughtful concern.

I haven't backed away from my statement or opinion. I can't own it any more than that. What do you base your high percentage of leaders having been touched (no pun) by sexual assault on anyway? As I just demonstrated, the overall percentage of citizenry that have been personally affected is exceedingly low in our country. I am not sure of the percentage in Germany, but I would think it would be comparable. Why do you assume the very low number of leaders who are deciding this policy have been personally effected? Is it just an assumption that you invented to support your opinion, or do you have data that supports it?

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Here are more statistics, along with a good NYT article discussing sexual assault in America

https://rainn.org/statistics

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/15/health/nearly-1-in-5-women-in-us-survey-report-sexual-assault.html?_r=0

1 in 5 American women claim to have been raped in their lifetime. That's not 'ridiculous'?

I'm not aware of statistics on sexual assault in the refugee camps, so we can't compare apples to apples, but, given the 20% number, are you willing to say that Americans are rapists? If not, at what percentage do you start generalizing about people?

This isn't an argument about sexual assault, it's an argument about generalizing about people you don't know, which you do. It's about applying the same standard to everyone, which you do not do.

What's more, has anyone suggested opening refugee camps in the US?

'What's needed to protect your family'? More subjective, emotion based rationale.

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5 hours ago, silentbob1272 said:

Unless you're an European leader making these decisions, **** off. That statement was not directed at you or anyone else here. It was directed at those making these decisions for the citizens they purport to represent. That said, that's horrifying, I honestly could not be more sorry for what your wife, and you went through.

Muslim Tory Councillor Admits: Some Muslims Think Girls Abused by Gangs Had It Coming

A Muslim Conservative Councillor in Bradford has admitted that some local Muslims believe child victims of Muslim sex-grooming gangs are complicit in their abuse. “They believe it takes two to tango,” he said.

His comments come after 12 Muslim men were sentenced to a combined 143 years in jail for the year long abuse of a vulnerable 13-year-old girl.

On Monday, the twelve men of Pakistani origin were handed sentences at Bradford Crown Court of between three and a half to 20 years for their role in the sexual exploitation of a 13 year old local girl who was repeatedly raped by the gang, the Daily Mail has reported.

Their ringleader, drug-dealer Arif Chowdhury, now 20 years old, escaped justice by fleeing to Bangladesh. He used the girl as a drug-runner and as his personal sexual property, passing her between his friends and even to rival gang members from another part of town for over a year.

 

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12 minutes ago, dirtyhairy said:

Trout, you haven't a clue what I've been through and I can tell you for a fact. The syrian refugee's haven't been through a nickle of these steps. Lets also dispense with the idea that our wide open borders allow for any vetting. We have god knows who coming through our borders and death, destruction, rape and pillage have all been realized with the illegal Non action of protecting our borders and towns. 

First, from which country did you migrate?  You said you went through the immigration process, so which country did you come from?

Second, no refugee will come to America without going through those steps.  If you claim that they are then provide evidence to support that claim.  

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36 minutes ago, silentbob1272 said:

Also, stop pretending that those that disagree with you on this are un-American or aren't familiar with the ideals of the country.

Maybe you can stop pretending that those that disagree with you on this don't care about women being raped, or suffer from 'greater good' delusions.

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27 minutes ago, silentbob1272 said:

I haven't backed away from my statement or opinion. I can't own it any more than that. What do you base your high percentage of leaders having been touched (no pun) by sexual assault on anyway? As I just demonstrated, the overall percentage of citizenry that have been personally affected is exceedingly low in our country. I am not sure of the percentage in Germany, but I would think it would be comparable. Why do you assume the very low number of leaders who are deciding this policy have been personally effected? Is it just an assumption that you invented to support your opinion, or do you have data that supports it?

1 in 5 women reporting having been raped is an exceedingly low percentage of citizenry? Really?

I assume that world leaders have been affected by sexual assault by simple math. Think about how many people you're talking about, and the statistics involved. It's a near certainty that any one of them, or every one of them, has been affected in some way.

Why are you continually dodging the simple fact that you're committing guilt by association fallacies to support a negative view of people you don't know?

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32 minutes ago, dirtyhairy said:

Muslim Tory Councillor Admits: Some Muslims Think Girls Abused by Gangs Had It Coming

A Muslim Conservative Councillor in Bradford has admitted that some local Muslims believe child victims of Muslim sex-grooming gangs are complicit in their abuse. “They believe it takes two to tango,” he said.

His comments come after 12 Muslim men were sentenced to a combined 143 years in jail for the year long abuse of a vulnerable 13-year-old girl.

On Monday, the twelve men of Pakistani origin were handed sentences at Bradford Crown Court of between three and a half to 20 years for their role in the sexual exploitation of a 13 year old local girl who was repeatedly raped by the gang, the Daily Mail has reported.

Their ringleader, drug-dealer Arif Chowdhury, now 20 years old, escaped justice by fleeing to Bangladesh. He used the girl as a drug-runner and as his personal sexual property, passing her between his friends and even to rival gang members from another part of town for over a year.

 

Yeah, we've never heard that rationale in the US.

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41 minutes ago, Leon Troutsky said:

First, from which country did you migrate?  You said you went through the immigration process, so which country did you come from?

Second, no refugee will come to America without going through those steps.  If you claim that they are then provide evidence to support that claim.  

My personal life is none of your concern trout. You've proven extremely unable to attack peoples personal lives, in fact you revel in it. Trust, is not a word I'd associate with you. Sorry. As for proof. You are taking the governments lie, word, just as you did with Obamacare. I have posted proof with articles from FBI, Home Land Security and others that None of what you suggested, or a small portion, was actually being done. Your problem is you believe those idiots.

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7 minutes ago, dirtyhairy said:

My personal life is none of your concern trout. You've proven extremely unable to attack peoples personal lives, in fact you revel in it. Trust, is not a word I'd associate with you. Sorry. As for proof. You are taking the governments lie, word, just as you did with Obamacare. I have posted proof with articles from FBI, Home Land Security and others that None of what you suggested, or a small portion, was actually being done. Your problem is you believe those idiots.

Hahahaha!  "I've been through the immigration process, but don't ask me where I came from because it's none of your business, just trust that I did it because I said it."  Yeah, *I* am the untrustworthy one here.  

Also, "you trust the government's lying words but I've posted evidence from the government that can be trusted."  You really don't know how trust works, do you?

Finally, you haven't posted anything except insane rantings from Breitbart and other conspiracy nutjob websites.  You just make up stuff and expect people to take you...of all people...at your word.

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