Thoughts On Shanahan And Offensive Woes In General

[JDaveG]

A few things have been bugging me about this season, and how people tend to classify our problems. As I've said before, I think people naturally want to blame one person when things go bad. For me, right now, it's Dimitroff. But I fully recognize that we have issues beyond simply personnel. I just happen to think the personnel is the biggest problem.

The criticisms of Shanahan are too numerous to mention. Some say they hate the West Coast Offense and it doesn't work. I think that's absurd. Some say "his scheme" doesn't work in some generic sense, and I think most people who say that tend to think "his scheme" doesn't work because "our offense" doesn't work, and that's simple-minded. Some say he's an egomaniac who won't listen to the players or adapt his scheme. He has a history of people not getting along with him, notably Donovan McNabb, who was on his last legs at the end of his career anyway. But he also has a history of tailoring his offenses. In Houston, he wanted to put in more vertical stretch plays because he had Andre Johnson. In Washington he changed his scheme up completely to add read option plays for RGIII. So I'm not sure I buy that. But this is the one criticism of him that I think, if true, would be a deal-killer. If he is inflexible and arrogant and will not adapt his scheme, then he ought to be fired. I question whether that's the case, but we'll know at the end of the season. If he's a cancer in the building, Quinn will excise it. I firmly believe that, because to not believe it I'd have to believe that Dan Quinn is disinterested in his own success as a head coach.

It seems every time this team struggles we like to blame the coordinators. Malarkey and BVG had to go. At least with Mularkey, we had specifics to point to that explained why he wasn't working. The Giants game I think was his downfall, in that he refused to try to stretch the defense because he didn't think our line could protect. Then he left and we got Koetter, who if anything needs an even better o-line than Mularkey did because he leaves 5 in protection so often. And yet we did nothing to address the o-line, and arguably dismantled it. Koetter's offense worked for 1 season and then we had 2 losing seasons after that. Mostly due to defensive woes, but also because of some of the issues we see now -- too many 3 and outs, too little red zone efficiency, no dedication to the run at all. So we get rid of him and Nolan and we bring in Quinn and Shanahan. And everyone still harps on how the OC is killing the team (even though we also saw this past week how the defense isn't all that improved against a truly good team).

My take on all of this is we still have glaring personnel deficiencies. That's why I blame Dimitroff first. But that doesn't mean we can't do better. Several of the games we lost can be hung directly around the neck of the offense, and I don't think all of it was lack of talent. I do think a lot of it was lack of execution, and I also think Shanahan got out-coached in the 49ers game badly. The point is, if we fired Shanahan today and we could magically drop Whisenhunt, or Trestman, or even Koetter as the OC and bring in their system with them (Trestman would need the least adjustment), we'd still have problems scoring in the red zone. We'd still have problems with offensive inefficiency.

At some point, we have to simply admit this team isn't that good. Could they be better? Yeah, I think we've had several games we could have won if not for turnovers, penalties, and yes bad play calling at critical points in the game. But I also think this team is what the record says it is. Because this is who we've been for 3 seasons straight. Through an old coaching staff and now a new one. I do not believe that 2 separate staffs have the same issues for 3 years running and it can be fixed through another round of new coaches. This team is bad. We need better players.

End of rant.

[FalconJim]

I think you hit the nail right on the head ---- we need BETTER players!

Oh sure, we have quite a few good, to above average players, but overall, this team has been devoid of any real talent for at least 3 years, or more! And like you say, that squarely falls upon the shoulders of the GM (and scouting dept.), who simply DOES NOT KNOW how to evaluate talent.

Now, I'm a believer (like Deion Sanders) that Kyle Shanahan is the "common denominator" in this epic meltdown of our offense. Now, whether it would help to get rid of him, I haven't a clue.....maybe, maybe not. But if I had to lean one way or the other, I'd say, put the guy in the road! I mean, he has a history of doing this with other teams, and it's happening all over again, here. So, let's err on the side of caution, and go ahead and release him, so that we can get a head start on next year, before this gets even uglier!!!

And finally, we have to give Dan Quinn the time to "purge" this team of Dimitroff's inferior players. It may take several years for him to do that, but I'm willing to wait --- because I have faith in him to put a quality product on the field, before it's all said and done ---

[Duff_Man]

I blame myself.

[MACK4ttACK]

A huge part of the problem is also that we only have Julio and nobody else. Our WR core which used to be a strong point seemingly disapppeared over night. That was the only feather in dmitroff's cap and now he let that go to **** to and now we are all paying the price for it. At this point I don't see how Dmitroff isn't fired after this season. After 8 years, the defense still being the way it is and now the offense too is completely inexcusable.

LOL hahaha. Did you even look at what you wrote?

In 2014, Falcons had #8 overall offense. Who did we lose on offense? LOL Harry Douglas and Steven Jackson and Dirk Koetter. What a joke.

Who did we gain in 2015? Leonard Hankerson, Nick Williams, Justin Hardy and Kyle Shanahan.

Edited December 16, 2015 by WWWD?

[Flying Falcon]

LOL hahaha. Did you even look at what you wrote?

In 2014, Falcons had #7 overall offense. Who did we lose on offense? LOL Harry Douglas and Steven Jackson and Dirk Koetter. What a joke.

Who did we gain in 2015? Leonard Hankerson, Nick Williams, Justin Hardy and Kyle Shanahan.

LOL!!!!!!

[PokerSteve]

I agree with you, the central reason this team is hitting rock bottom is personnel. You have to have a minimal level of talent in the trenches, or it doesn't matter how much talent you have at the skill positions. Dimitroff failed to get this team the quality of talent necessary for it to be competitive with the first-tier teams. Even with Pioli to help, this scouting department under Dimitroff has been a miserable failure.

As for Shanahan, I don't see how anyone could expect this offense to ever be able to ascend from where it is today and reach the SB in a couple of years.....or ever for that matter. Either Matt Ryan has to go or Shanahan if we are going to be a top team in the near future and we all know Ryan isn't going anywhere.

[KRUNKuno]

We need better players, but any avocation of Kyle Shanahan is beyond incomprehensible given his well documented tenure as an OC.

[JDaveG]

I agree with you, the central reason this team is hitting rock bottom is personnel. You have to have a minimal level of talent in the trenches, or it doesn't matter how much talent you have at the skill positions. Dimitroff failed to get this team the quality of talent necessary for it to be competitive with the first-tier teams. Even with Pioli to help, this scouting department under Dimitroff has been a miserable failure.

As for Shanahan, I don't see how anyone could expect this offense to ever be able to ascend from where it is today and reach the SB in a couple of years.....or ever for that matter. Either Matt Ryan has to go or Shanahan if we are going to be a top team in the near future and we all know Ryan isn't going anywhere.

Well, if you assume Shanahan is the reason we're losing, I don't see how anyone could expect that either.

As I said, it remains to be seen, but typical objections 1 and 2 are not persuasive at all to me. Objection 3 is where the rubber meets the road, and if that's the problem, Quinn will fire him shortly after our game against the Taints.

[JDaveG]

LOL hahaha. Did you even look at what you wrote?

In 2014, Falcons had #8 overall offense. Who did we lose on offense? LOL Harry Douglas and Steven Jackson and Dirk Koetter. What a joke.

Who did we gain in 2015? Leonard Hankerson, Nick Williams, Justin Hardy and Kyle Shanahan.

Championship!

In other news, you can't be serious. P.S., we also lost Asamoah, Blaylock, Steven Jackson and apparently Roddy. And we replaced the former 2 with Chester and Levitre (and swapped Hawley for Person), and we replaced Roddy with a rookie, an undrafted FA journeyman and a M.A.S.H. unit (specializing in hand trauma) masquerading as a WR. Oh, and 2015 Roddy, who isn't quite as saucy as 2012 Roddy.

Freeman is outplaying Jackson from last season, so not sure that helps you, but there it is.

[kiwifalcon]

Give & take for me.

Both Ryan & Shanahan have to come to some sought of middle ground.

I still got a lot of faith in Ryan when used correctly Ryan can pretty much match it with the best in the league for me it's pretty simple talent be damned get Ryan back comfortable and confident the team will start to roll the first 5 games proved that.

Ryan doesn't need a all pro o-line just a manageable running game adequate protection and a scheme fit that fits his talents.His strength is getting it out quick,accuracy and playing with rhythm that allows us to dictate the tempo of the game get back to that sought of style and Ryan will be fine.

[hjerry]

I've said before that the biggest problem with these struggles are that they aren't simple. They are complicated.

The people who are trying to blame this all on Ryan are wrong just as much as the ones trying to blame it all on Shanahan are wrong.

I've seen numerous people try and list terrible examples, attempting to label Shanahan as a QB killer, but they all fail.

Likewise, I've seen the same, trying to make Ryan out as an OC killer, but they all fail too.

Quite honestly, if I felt like taking the time (I don't), I could write pages explaining the problems right now with our offense.

In summary, basically, it's that we've become one dimensional and undisciplined.

Why have we become one dimensional and undisciplined? Well, it amounts to numerous things.

Is it that Ryan, as well as others are having to adjust to an ever increasing playbook? Yes

Is it that Ryan hasn't played in a system like this since college, that was even then very limited? Yes

Is it that Ryan has been spoiled by previous offensive schemes and players, and not been asked to do many of these new things? Yes

Is it that no WR other than Julio has shown ability to get consistent separation? Yes

Is it that our #2 WR kept dropping the ball? Yes

Is it that our Center keeps having issues calling protections, and snapping the ball? Yes

Is it that our only other useful RB other than Freeman can't seem to hold onto the ball? Yes

Is it that, after watching tape, teams discovered that our OGs could be beat easily enough in certain ways? Yes

Is it that Ryan, if not given a consistent pocket, will eventually lose trust in his OL, and assume pressure on every snap? Yes

Yes, Yes, Yes, and all of the above.

[Jesus]

If its a lack of talent explain 5-0...

[Falcons_Frenzy]

Shanahan sucks, his scheme is terrible. The worst offense in the NFL is on him.

[JDaveG]

If its a lack of talent explain 5-0...

Less talented teams can have good runs. But the only win of the 5 that was impressive was the one against the Texans. The rest were great comeback wins, but let's be honest -- most of them were basically a bounce of the ball from being losses. And the records of the 4 teams we beat are 6-7, 6-7, 6-7 and 4-9. And that's with 3 of the 4 on at least a 1 game winning streak.

That's true of most of the losses too. Really, we've been in every game except the Panthers and the 49ers. So it's not quite as bad as it looks today, but it's not quite as good as 5-0 looked either.

[JDaveG]

The Texans are also 6-7 and on a 2-game losing streak. FWIW.

[TeamPlayer1]

"You are what your record says you are!" Truth.

[octoslash]

I can explain 5-0. That's precisely how much time it took for any defensive coordinator with a brain, pea-sized and larger, to look at tape and shut down a stupid system like Shanahan's. I admit, in the early season, I loved the way the offense was moving. Why not, when you're scoring 30 a game? But almost immediately the opponents began

shutting the Falcons down, and Shanahan has done almost nothing to adjust or adapt. And now the creeping impression that his mere presence is becoming cancerous among the players....well, just look at his record. There's a reason he can't hold down a job for more than a year or two.

[BC Fan]

There is no doubt that some of the alleged discord Shanahan has had in previous stints is overblown. If you look up the stories, Cousins almost gushes about Shanahan and his scheme. Even McNabb signed off on Shanny for Cleveland, though he did question whether Shanahan would adapt. For that matter, RGIII seemed to have more problems with Mike, not Kyle. I could even be sold on the idea that Ryan is a good fit for the WCO in the abstract, but it's questionable Shanahan's version of it is actually sound. Even if the leaked reports that the players aren't sold on Kyle's system, that doesn't mean it couldn't work over time.

The fundamental problem is the offense has not been able to score for 8 straight games. If the system was good, you would think they would have had at least one game where they showed flourishes. Instead, they're steadily regressing against weak opponents. Averaging 14 points a game for 8 weeks, with a high of 21, is all the proof you need that DC's have solved him. Talent is no doubt an issue, but the regression should not be this severe if there wasn't a scheme issue as well, especially since this is an offense that has generally performed well in recent years with roughly the same talent.

I don't doubt Shanahan is a bright guy. But he obviously blew this opportunity. The offense needs a guy they can believe in, and he isn't that guy.

[JDaveG]

There is no doubt that some of the alleged discord Shanahan has had in previous stints is overblown. If you look up the stories, Cousins almost gushes about Shanahan and his scheme. Even McNabb signed off on Shanny for Cleveland, though he did question whether Shanahan would adapt. For that matter, RGIII seemed to have more problems with Mike, not Kyle. I could even be sold on the idea that Ryan is a good fit for the WCO in the abstract, but it's questionable Shanahan's version of it is actually sound. Even if the leaked reports that the players aren't sold on Kyle's system, that doesn't mean it couldn't work over time.

The fundamental problem is the offense has not been able to score for 8 straight games. If the system was good, you would think they would have had at least one game where they showed flourishes. Instead, they're steadily regressing against weak opponents. Averaging 14 points a game for 8 weeks, with a high of 21, is all the proof you need that DC's have solved him. Talent is no doubt an issue, but the regression should not be this severe if there wasn't a scheme issue as well, especially since this is an offense that has generally performed well in recent years with roughly the same talent.

I don't doubt Shanahan is a bright guy. But he obviously blew this opportunity. The offense needs a guy they can believe in, and he isn't that guy.

Well, they have shown flourishes. The red zone is tougher because the field is compressed and therefore easier to defend. And we've had turnover after turnover after turnover in the red zone, plus penalties, plus bad snaps, etc. I don't think that's an indictment of the system. Some of it can be chalked up to playcalling, but there isn't a play in the playbook that calls for a bad snap, penalty or fumble. So I don't think it's as simple as "we can't score in the red zone, ergo the system is to blame."

[Atlfanstckndenver]

Well, they have shown flourishes. The red zone is tougher because the field is compressed and therefore easier to defend. And we've had turnover after turnover after turnover in the red zone, plus penalties, plus bad snaps, etc. I don't think that's an indictment of the system. Some of it can be chalked up to playcalling, but there isn't a play in the playbook that calls for a bad snap, penalty or fumble. So I don't think it's as simple as "we can't score in the red zone, ergo the system is to blame."

J Dave I sincerely respect the point of view you're coming from. I can appreciate trying to stay level headed about all this. I just think despite anything anybody wants to say, this offense has literally undergone a systematic and absolute dismantling. EVERYTHING has become less effective and dysfunctional. Literally. Everything. Name any player and or unit on the offense and sure enough, they are struggling. Even Julio has been made mortal by opposing game plans. Even the run game has returned to dysfunctional. When literally every single aspect of a once smoothly operating offensive group is completely struggling to even put a few points on the board, you look at the coach and/or in this case coordinator. Think about it, just logic alone leads to this conclusion. What or who is responsible for ANY changes in this offense? Production, chemistry, timing, potential, explosiveness, respect, communication, everything! It's all gone down the toilet. It's not like the personnel has changed that much. How can we possibly explain the same group on the field changing so drastically so quickly? Add in the suggestive comments made by players that where previously never known to publicly show any frustration (shraeder, Julio, etc). It's just hard not to think that Shanahan has SOMETHING to be responsible for here.

The red zone is harder to move the ball in for EVERY team. This team going into the year had what we thought where a few sure variables. A solid QB with an elite wr at the top of that list. Well, any genius can decide that they want to force the ball to a player like Julio Jones. Anybody can do that. Which is exactly what we did to start the season, and we enjoyed the fruit for a minute there, but eventually and certainly teams are going to catch on. Which they did and Shanahan was not ready. Now he has an established group of vets looking around frustrated by the fact that their careers are in jeopardy suddenly. But it seems that many fans have a hard time accepting why. While of course the players need to be accountable, process of elimination and deductive reasoning lead to a very simple conclusion. Whatever Shanahan is doing simply isn't working. I just don't see how that can even be debated. I really don't. His job is to accomplish the exact opposite of what's taken place. Literally, the job description of an o coordinator can be defined as the opposite of what's taken place with the 15 Atlanta Falcon's offense. If this isn't a case where the coordinator should be responsible for systematic failure, seriously then, what is? ??

Edited December 17, 2015 by Atlfanstckndenver

[Tuggle'2]

I personally blame them all. I also think letting Shannahan off the hook in anyway is simpleminded. Giving him a pass is ridiculous. If one player over the last 8years absolutely deserves some benefit of the doubt it is our QB. Always been the most consistent and hardest working out of everyone and anyone by a mile. He has made many many mistakes this year, and like I said deserves a TON of blame too, but Shannahan gets just as much if not more. If people can't see the changed and added variables this year compared to past years and put 2 and 2 together I don't know what to tell them and don't want to even try.

[Rise]

Put Stone back at Center because his is tough at the point of attack, and Ryan sees his Center and Guards struggle after the first two seconds after the snap...., but Stone doesn't fit Shanahan's ZBS....I'm surprised that he's not released yet... He's a bit more difficult to get around...Ryan should not flinch as much from seeing the push in front of him, but he does....It's distracting him, and the new reads..

Ryan made his read late in 2014 with little pressure...after Stone was at Center.

[JDaveG]

I personally blame them all. I also think letting Shannahan off the hook in anyway is simpleminded. Giving him a pass is ridiculous. If one player over the last 8years absolutely deserves some benefit of the doubt it is our QB. Always been the most consistent and hardest working out of everyone and anyone by a mile. He has made many many mistakes this year, and like I said deserves a TON of blame too, but Shannahan gets just as much if not more. If people can't see the changed and added variables this year compared to past years and put 2 and 2 together I don't know what to tell them and don't want to even try.

I'm not letting him off the hook. I'm just saying the hook isn't a 1-seater either.

I'm also saying the desire to blame sometimes misses the point. Maybe no one is to blame (H/T Howard Jones).

[JDaveG]

I still blame Dimitroff though. But I admit I'm itching for reasons to blame him.

[Grim Shady]

If one player over the last 8years absolutely deserves some benefit of the doubt it is our QB. Always been the most consistent and hardest working out of everyone and anyone by a mile. He has made many many mistakes this year, and like I said deserves a TON of blame too, but Shannahan gets just as much if not more.

He's also usually the first guy to take the blame when things go bad and in the few instances of success he always seems to talk about how it was because of the team's effort. Until this year he has been a good QB, especially when you consider the rest of the offense he's had to work with.