New Theory For Why Matt And Shannahan Not Meahing

[birds_till_death]

This is not a bash Ryan or Shannahan thread, but just a thought as to why it isn't working.

Matt's greatest asset in the past was always being a rhythm passer and throwing to a specific spot on the field.

He would read defenses pre snap, and the ball usually came out as soon as he hit the right step in his drop and he trusted his receivers would be in the correct spot. Very timing oriented.

This new offense is more read and react. Receivers have different route options based on what the defense does once the ball is snapped. This causes Ryan to read who is open then make an accurate throw to the moving receiver. That's why he seems so off on some throws even when the receiver is open.

Previous offenses had him practice and throw to spits on the field and it was the receivers job to be there. Now Matt has to make the accurate throw and try to hit/lead the receivers in the moment. Harder to practice those throws and could be some reason for his inaccuracy and making horrible decisions.

Thoughts?

[Sun Tzu 7]

Whatever it is it ain't working...

[Mr. Lubba Lubba©]

But this offense IS throwing it to a spot. The offenses of past have been more like what you describe.

[AEFalcon]

Largely agree. You can say it either way....Shannahan is doing a poor job utilizing his Qb's strengths or you can say Matt Ryan is not performing well in Shannahan's offense. Not bashing but I don't think Matt Ryan has the skill sets needed to run Shannahan's offense very well and to this point Shannahan looks unwilling to change his scheme at all to incorporate Ryan's skill set. Simple said, one needs to go.

[Sun Tzu 7]

Largely agree. You can say it either way....Shannahan is doing a poor job utilizing his Qb's strengths or you can say Matt Ryan is not performing well in Shannahan's offense. Not bashing but I don't think Matt Ryan has the skill sets needed to run Shannahan's offense very well and to this point Shannahan looks unwilling to change his scheme at all to incorporate Ryan's skill set. Simple said, one needs to go.

But even when you look at that you have to consider one guy was already here and established.

Not adjusting your system to fit him doesn't make any sense unless your system does not fundamentally work with a QB like him. In which case hiring Shanahan in the first place was a huge mistake.

It's been almost an entire season and the offense was good for 4 games and **** the rest. The best players on offense were already on the roster before Shanahan got here. The huge **** up on the offensive line is ALL on him

[JDaveG]

This is not a bash Ryan or Shannahan thread, but just a thought as to why it isn't working.

Matt's greatest asset in the past was always being a rhythm passer and throwing to a specific spot on the field.

He would read defenses pre snap, and the ball usually came out as soon as he hit the right step in his drop and he trusted his receivers would be in the correct spot. Very timing oriented.

This new offense is more read and react. Receivers have different route options based on what the defense does once the ball is snapped. This causes Ryan to read who is open then make an accurate throw to the moving receiver. That's why he seems so off on some throws even when the receiver is open.

Previous offenses had him practice and throw to spits on the field and it was the receivers job to be there. Now Matt has to make the accurate throw and try to hit/lead the receivers in the moment. Harder to practice those throws and could be some reason for his inaccuracy and making horrible decisions.

Thoughts?

I think you have it completely and utterly backwards. Koetter relied on option routes a lot. This offense is exactly drop, hitch, throw (or hitch again and go to the next read). This is the opposite of "read and react."

Dave Archer talked a lot about it this morning on the radio and his thoughts echo some of mine, namely that Ryan is having trouble getting through his progressions for a lot of reasons. I've said for a while Ryan is slow getting to his first read. Archer indicated that he also has trouble because if his pre-snap read isn't correct, he doesn't have time to get to the 2nd read because the protection is breaking down (or Matt thinks it is, because it usually is), and that is throwing everything off. He also said that's a big reason we aren't taking deep shots. Matt lacks the confidence that the o-line will have time for the route to develop on longer drops, so he's taking the intermediate option first. This would also explain why Julio gets the ball a lot (Matt trusts him to get open and catch the ball) and Roddy doesn't (Roddy is deeper in the progression and isn't often running the shorter routes).

[Robb4242]

Largely agree. You can say it either way....Shannahan is doing a poor job utilizing his Qb's strengths or you can say Matt Ryan is not performing well in Shannahan's offense. Not bashing but I don't think Matt Ryan has the skill sets needed to run Shannahan's offense very well and to this point Shannahan looks unwilling to change his scheme at all to incorporate Ryan's skill set. Simple said, one needs to go.

exactly......and give past histories, I think its pretty obvious which one it is.

[PeytonMannings Forehead]

You realize what you just described as Matt Ryan's best asset is exactly what the west coast offense is predicated on?

[Duff_Man]

This board is Read and React.

Read: This board.

React: Facepalm.

[Drunken Minotaur Zebra]

But this offense IS throwing it to a spot. The offenses of past have been more like what you describe.

Yea its literally the reverse of what you said, OP

But in reverse, you are indeed corect.

[runshoot]

This is not a bash Ryan or Shannahan thread, but just a thought as to why it isn't working.

Matt's greatest asset in the past was always being a rhythm passer and throwing to a specific spot on the field.

He would read defenses pre snap, and the ball usually came out as soon as he hit the right step in his drop and he trusted his receivers would be in the correct spot. Very timing oriented.

This new offense is more read and react. Receivers have different route options based on what the defense does once the ball is snapped. This causes Ryan to read who is open then make an accurate throw to the moving receiver. That's why he seems so off on some throws even when the receiver is open.

Previous offenses had him practice and throw to spits on the field and it was the receivers job to be there. Now Matt has to make the accurate throw and try to hit/lead the receivers in the moment. Harder to practice those throws and could be some reason for his inaccuracy and making horrible decisions.

Thoughts?

You have it EXACTLY opposite.

This offense is no read and react. It is throw to the spot on exact timing.

Why do you think Matt plays so well in the no huddle when he gets to call the play? Because Matt is reading the defense and throwing to where he knows the D is weak. Exact opposite of Kyles offense which is throw to the primary receiver REGARDLESS of what the defense is doing.

[BeRom]

Almost without exception every QB who has ever played this game has a skill set which allows him to feel most comfortable in certain systems and not so comfortable in others. Some post have, at times, suggested that Matt can't, but should able to, adjust to any system. Just don't believe that to be true. Some of you may be able to remind me of QB's who thrived in any system, but I suspect the list will be short, if there is valid list. That doesn't mean that any given QB is incapable of being good, even great,IF his skills and comfort level are considered and used correctly.

Matt Ryan is unlikely to be remembered as an elite QB, but I'm willing to bet that given a good supporting cast and in a system that 'features' his skill set, he could be very close because he is capable of doing a number of things very well.

[JDaveG]

Almost without exception every QB who has ever played this game has a skill set which allows him to feel most comfortable in certain systems and not so comfortable in others. Some post have, at times, suggested that Matt can't, but should able to, adjust to any system. Just don't believe that to be true. Some of you may be able to remind me of QB's who thrived in any system, but I suspect the list will be short, if there is valid list. That doesn't mean that any given QB is incapable of being good, even great,IF his skills and comfort level are considered and used correctly. Matt Ryan is unlikely to be remembered as an elite QB, but I'm willing to bet that given a good supporting cast and in a system that 'features' his skill set, he could be very close because he is capable of doing a number of things very well.

I think the difference is that this system is designed to simplify things for the QB. So if he can't thrive in this system, one wonders how he could thrive in any system.

People said he couldn't work in a vertical offense because he lacked the arm strength. They were wrong and that was ridiculous for a lot of reasons, but at least it pointed to something specific that he (supposedly) lacked that would limit him in such an offense. I could get someone saying he can't thrive in a spread option because he lacks the ability to run the ball. Etc. But saying he can't do well in a West Coast Offense is basically saying the dude can't play QB. It takes time to learn it and get it down, but if he can't play QB in this system it's time to hang up the cleats. As a pocket passer who is accurate on the mid-range throws, this is the system perfectly tailored to his skill set.

[Dirtybird56]

Andy Benoit ‏@Andy_Benoit:

"Film: #Falcons problems were not schematic, they had good play designs to attack #Panthers base principles (run and especially pass)."

"#Falcons Film: there were a few cases where Ryan threw shallow when downfield route designs worked well enough to be challenged."

"#Falcons Film: Ryan was also a frenetic in pocket at times. Hes not a comfortable QB right now."

[Nono]

This is not a bash Ryan or Shannahan thread, but just a thought as to why it isn't working.

Matt's greatest asset in the past was always being a rhythm passer and throwing to a specific spot on the field.

He would read defenses pre snap, and the ball usually came out as soon as he hit the right step in his drop and he trusted his receivers would be in the correct spot. Very timing oriented.

This new offense is more read and react. Receivers have different route options based on what the defense does once the ball is snapped. This causes Ryan to read who is open then make an accurate throw to the moving receiver. That's why he seems so off on some throws even when the receiver is open.

Previous offenses had him practice and throw to spits on the field and it was the receivers job to be there. Now Matt has to make the accurate throw and try to hit/lead the receivers in the moment. Harder to practice those throws and could be some reason for his inaccuracy and making horrible decisions.

Thoughts?

If we can figure this out then why can't the fools at Flowery Branch

[JDaveG]

If we can figure this out then why can't the fools at Flowery Branch

Because none of it is true?

[Rise]

I think you have it completely and utterly backwards. Koetter relied on option routes a lot. This offense is exactly drop, hitch, throw (or hitch again and go to the next read). This is the opposite of "read and react."

Dave Archer talked a lot about it this morning on the radio and his thoughts echo some of mine, namely that Ryan is having trouble getting through his progressions for a lot of reasons. I've said for a while Ryan is slow getting to his first read. Archer indicated that he also has trouble because if his pre-snap read isn't correct, he doesn't have time to get to the 2nd read because the protection is breaking down (or Matt thinks it is, because it usually is), and that is throwing everything off. He also said that's a big reason we aren't taking deep shots. Matt lacks the confidence that the o-line will have time for the route to develop on longer drops, so he's taking the intermediate option first. This would also explain why Julio gets the ball a lot (Matt trusts him to get open and catch the ball) and Roddy doesn't (Roddy is deeper in the progression and isn't often running the shorter routes).

O-Line sin't that bad...When teams have the lead, that great Cowboys O-Line looks human too....

Matt has to step up there....Still, they cannot re-build the O-Line again..maybe one OG position...Asamoah will return..

The scheme will be.

Center can make a defense.

Free Agency = C Alex Mack.

[etherdome]

I think you have it completely and utterly backwards. Koetter relied on option routes a lot. This offense is exactly drop, hitch, throw (or hitch again and go to the next read). This is the opposite of "read and react."

Dave Archer talked a lot about it this morning on the radio and his thoughts echo some of mine, namely that Ryan is having trouble getting through his progressions for a lot of reasons. I've said for a while Ryan is slow getting to his first read. Archer indicated that he also has trouble because if his pre-snap read isn't correct, he doesn't have time to get to the 2nd read because the protection is breaking down (or Matt thinks it is, because it usually is), and that is throwing everything off. He also said that's a big reason we aren't taking deep shots. Matt lacks the confidence that the o-line will have time for the route to develop on longer drops, so he's taking the intermediate option first. This would also explain why Julio gets the ball a lot (Matt trusts him to get open and catch the ball) and Roddy doesn't (Roddy is deeper in the progression and isn't often running the shorter routes).

This sounds like the most accurate depiction of what has been going on.

I honestly believe that Ryan needs a lot more time and work to finally master this offense. Furthermore, I think that Shanahan will return next season. Between now and the opening of next season, the following has to happen:

1. Ryan works with a WCO QB expert. He needs to improve his footwork and timing. This will require self-arranged camps with our receivers.

2. The OL must be upgraded. Special attention has to be given to the interior positions. With luck, Asamoah will return to his RG position. Chester, or Jake Long to LG and a new signee at Center.

3. Shanahan has to continue his education of the WCO. He needs to understand how to adapt his offensive attack, in order to keep teams guessing.

This offense can work very well, but it will take a lot of work. It remains to be seen whether our QB, head coach, OC and Gm are up to the task.

Edited December 15, 2015 by etherdome

[JDaveG]

O-Line sin't that bad...When teams have the lead, that great Cowboys O-Line looks human too....

Matt has to step up there....Still, they cannot re-build the O-Line again..maybe one OG position...Asamoah will return..

Wait, they rebuilt the o-line?

They must suck at re-building stuff.

The o-line has been bad, especially lately, and especially up the middle. Putrid bad.

The scheme will be.

Center can make a defense.

Free Agency = C Alex Mack.

I agree 100% here. Alex Mack would solve potentially 2 problems in that you could move Person to replace Levitre or Chester (I vote Levitre -- he's been horrible, especially lately).

[Dirtybird56]

Agree with etherdome and JDaveG. We need upgrades along the interior Oline, a WR#2, and a TE#1. We can have major success with this scheme, but just because it's the WCO it can't make Levitre pick up stunts quicker, give Chester a better base to handle the bull rush, etc. Gotta have the talent first

[Dirtybird56]

I agree 100% here. Alex Mack would solve potentially 2 problems in that you could move Person to replace Levitre or Chester (I vote Levitre -- he's been horrible, especially lately).

Haven't gotten around to watching his film from this season, but Browns fans seem to be done with him. Say he hasn't been near the same since the injury. Just somethin to keep an eye on

On Levitre you are dead on. Dude has been awful, worse than Chester (barely IMO). Person has blocked much better than these two, though Chester's run blocking is typically as good as Person. I'm done with both Chester and Levitre, but it's a heck of a tall order to try to replace our entire interior in one offseason

[JDaveG]

Haven't gotten around to watching his film from this season, but Browns fans seem to be done with him. Say he hasn't been near the same since the injury. Just somethin to keep an eye on

On Levitre you are dead on. Dude has been awful, worse than Chester (barely IMO). Person has blocked much better than these two, though Chester's run blocking is typically as good as Person. I'm done with both Chester and Levitre, but it's a heck of a tall order to try to replace our entire interior in one offseason

Wow, I hate to hear that. I'm not wedded to Mack, but unless Person somehow gets it all together in the offseason, we'll be struggling again next year, and I'm not sure this team can afford that after the last 3 years. We need results, and the fastest way to get them is to get a competent center and let him snap the ball.

You're right, it's a tall order. That's why I'm hoping against hope that Person can pan out as a G and we can kill 2 birds with 1 stone. Matthews - Person - Competent Center - Chester - Schrader looks a whole lot better to me than putting Person at C and Levitre at LG.

[BeRom]

Any 'system' CAN be 'simple' if the personnel operating in it are,#1, suited for it and,#2, understand it.

We have seen Matt do some very good things in the 8 years he's been here. To wit, shotgun allows him to see the field, read, decide and throw (and w/o decent OL protection most of the time); reads defenses with the best, but that is only consistently helpful if he is allowed to change the play called to what he sees the defense giving him. Much of that has been taken out of his hands, ergo, he's not comfortable; is made inflexible; routes not run as he expects, ect. It's not the job of a coach to make things "simple" because little is simple if what one does well is subjugated to what someone else demands. It's not the job of a coach to make a system 'simple' if it is ill-suited to the team he comes to. That's the purpose of future drafts and F/A. It IS the job of a coach, if he's good at it, to build a system around the current personnel and their skill sets and gradually introduce elements of the 'system' being worked toward. That has not been done in Atlanta this year, at least on the offensive side.

[Trouble]

Because Shannahanannana sucks. He is riding his name or he wouldnt be in the NFL. Smug *** ego driving looser is a bigger ***** than his dad. Killing QB`s 1 QB at a time. He will never be the coach of any higher standard QB. Ryan was probably the most likely to put up with crap.

[Dirtybird56]

Wow, I hate to hear that. I'm not wedded to Mack, but unless Person somehow gets it all together in the offseason, we'll be struggling again next year, and I'm not sure this team can afford that after the last 3 years. We need results, and the fastest way to get them is to get a competent center and let him snap the ball.

You're right, it's a tall order. That's why I'm hoping against hope that Person can pan out as a G and we can kill 2 birds with 1 stone. Matthews - Person - Competent Center - Chester - Schrader looks a whole lot better to me than putting Person at C and Levitre at LG.

Wisniewski from Jax would be nice if he makes it to FA. Sign an OG in similar terms of Chester and Person from this previous offseason (cheap), draft a guard, re-sign Chester cheap, and let em all compete for the guard spots with the stable Wisniewski at C. I agree that no matter what C must be taken care of