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Is Political Correctness Impeding Our Rights To Be Safe?


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3 hours ago, Free Radical said:

The "right to safety" is arbitrary and non-existent. It has no definition, and advocating the ban of immigrants because "I have a right to safety" could be used for advocating the banning of guns, cars, and so on, because I am much more likely to get hurt by one of those than I am an immigrant.

**** it then....by that 'logic' just get rid of the military, police, and judicial system 

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Focus people. My greater point is that simply demanding action, even at the expense of principles and law, because you feel an unqualified and possibly unjustified threat to your safety, is a senseless road to go down. What's next? Are we going to start violating international and evem our own laws by torturing people whenever we feel threatened...? Oh wait. Maybe we should start assassinating Americans with no due process whenever we feel threatened by them...? Oh wait. Where does this end? Do we start blindly throwing billions of dollars at an ineffective and poorly thought out plan to build a giant wall along the U.S. border because we're afraid? Swinging our ***** and making snap decisions based on gut instinct works when you're an animal, but not when deciding policy that costs billions or trillions of dollars and impacts millions of people. 

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14 minutes ago, Free Radical said:

Focus people. My greater point is that simply demanding action, even at the expense of principles and law, because you feel an unqualified and possibly unjustified threat to your safety, is a senseless road to go down. What's next? Are we going to start violating international and evem our own laws by torturing people whenever we feel threatened...? Oh wait. Maybe we should start assassinating Americans with no due process whenever we feel threatened by them...? Oh wait. Where does this end? Do we start blindly throwing billions of dollars at an ineffective and poorly thought out plan to build a giant wall along the U.S. border because we're afraid? Swinging our ***** and making snap decisions based on gut instinct works when you're an animal, but not when deciding policy that costs billions or trillions of dollars and impacts millions of people. 

'unqualified and possibly unjustified' is an opinion, nothing more. the rest of this is nonsense since it was already stated "without impeding on people's rights"

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3 minutes ago, Dago 3.0 said:

'unqualified and possibly unjustified' is an opinion, nothing more. the rest of this is nonsense since it was already stated "without impeding on people's rights"

Well then if you want to ban all immigrants from entering this country, because you believe letting a single one is a realistic threat to your safety, how about actually quantifying the threat and justifying why we should sacrifice our values before doing it. 

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Just now, Free Radical said:

Well then if you want to ban all immigrants from entering this country, because you believe letting a single one is a realistic threat to your safety, how about actually quantifying the threat and justifying why we should sacrifice our values before doing it. 

who said anything about banning all immigrants? and which values are you referring to that suggest that we should allow anybody and everybody in and disregard border security

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1 hour ago, Dago 3.0 said:

who said anything about banning all immigrants? and which values are you referring to that suggest that we should allow anybody and everybody in and disregard border security

Snake.

Throwing money blindly at an ineffective wall isn't doing anything for border security. No one is for disregarding border security, but better solutions to illegal immigration need to be thought of than just building a big wall and pointing a bunch of guns at the border. We need to start asking why. 

How many are coming in? 

Why are people coming in? 

Why are they choosing to do it illegally? 

Just because they do it illegally, are they a threat? How much of one? 

The current proposed options act as if all illegals are an immediate and major threat that need to be violently dealt with as soon as possible. I don't believe that, nor has there been justification for that view. 

How about these refugees? How many are we talking? Why? Are they actually a threat? What can we do to mitigate the threat? The dehumanizing language thrown around about these people is disgusting. Hordes of invaders? Barbarians? Savages? 

The current proposed "solution" is to shut down the borders and shoot any of them if they get close. It's cowardly. 

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20 hours ago, Free Radical said:

Snake.

Throwing money blindly at an ineffective wall isn't doing anything for border security. No one is for disregarding border security, but better solutions to illegal immigration need to be thought of than just building a big wall and pointing a bunch of guns at the border. We need to start asking why. 

How many are coming in? 

Why are people coming in? 

Why are they choosing to do it illegally? 

Just because they do it illegally, are they a threat? How much of one? 

The current proposed options act as if all illegals are an immediate and major threat that need to be violently dealt with as soon as possible. I don't believe that, nor has there been justification for that view. 

How about these refugees? How many are we talking? Why? Are they actually a threat? What can we do to mitigate the threat? The dehumanizing language thrown around about these people is disgusting. Hordes of invaders? Barbarians? Savages? 

The current proposed "solution" is to shut down the borders and shoot any of them if they get close. It's cowardly. 

1)awhile back I did some research and crunched some numbers of an analysis of building a barrier that is wall, trench, motion sensors, and seismic sensors compared to the cost of the increased border patrol since Obama took over and it was comparable over a ten year period. that barrier would be a far larger impediment to illegal immigration than our border patrol is

2)we already have a pretty good idea of how many are coming in

3)the why really isn't important. the needs of the citizens of other countries shouldn't be what makes us change our laws

4)see #3

5)in Texas alone  
https://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/pages/txCriminalAlienStatistics.htm

6)a lack of border security is an immediate and major threat and not just because of drugs, crime, and potential terrorists
http://www.abc15.com/news/national/immigrants-bringing-diseases-across-border

7)part of the reason we have the refugees we do is because of the lies being told in Central America. It is to the point that flyers are being circulated advertising that the United States is welcoming all illegals with open arms and providing support

8) our lower and middle class is having severe problems in the job market already. do you think adding millions of immigrants to that pool of people looking for blue collar work will help or hurt?

I dunno....maybe with the permission of these countries we can set up a chain of humanitarian aid. I would support that spending more than I support a lot of our other overseas expenditures 
 

 

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On May 25, 2016 at 0:59 PM, Free Radical said:

Focus people. My greater point is that simply demanding action, even at the expense of principles and law, because you feel an unqualified and possibly unjustified threat to your safety, is a senseless road to go down. What's next? Are we going to start violating international and evem our own laws by torturing people whenever we feel threatened...? Oh wait. Maybe we should start assassinating Americans with no due process whenever we feel threatened by them...? Oh wait. Where does this end? Do we start blindly throwing billions of dollars at an ineffective and poorly thought out plan to build a giant wall along the U.S. border because we're afraid? Swinging our ***** and making snap decisions based on gut instinct works when you're an animal, but not when deciding policy that costs billions or trillions of dollars and impacts millions of people. 

There is nothing counter to American values about restricting immigration.  We have no duty to accept immigrants and immigrants have no right to demand entry.  As it relates to rights, immigration policy is arbitrary.

Caution is a completely legitimate reason to impede immigration.  The threat of importing terrorism is very real.

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On 5/26/2016 at 11:36 AM, Dago 3.0 said:

1)awhile back I did some research and crunched some numbers of an analysis of building a barrier that is wall, trench, motion sensors, and seismic sensors compared to the cost of the increased border patrol since Obama took over and it was comparable over a ten year period. that barrier would be a far larger impediment to illegal immigration than our border patrol is

2)we already have a pretty good idea of how many are coming in

3)the why really isn't important. the needs of the citizens of other countries shouldn't be what makes us change our laws

4)see #3

5)in Texas alone  
https://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/pages/txCriminalAlienStatistics.htm

6)a lack of border security is an immediate and major threat and not just because of drugs, crime, and potential terrorists
http://www.abc15.com/news/national/immigrants-bringing-diseases-across-border

7)part of the reason we have the refugees we do is because of the lies being told in Central America. It is to the point that flyers are being circulated advertising that the United States is welcoming all illegals with open arms and providing support

8) our lower and middle class is having severe problems in the job market already. do you think adding millions of immigrants to that pool of people looking for blue collar work will help or hurt?

I dunno....maybe with the permission of these countries we can set up a chain of humanitarian aid. I would support that spending more than I support a lot of our other overseas expenditures

1. You're not going to convince me that a wall is going to solve the issue. The walls we've already put up haven't helped, and have caused numerous problems as it is, without really fixing anything. It costs tons of money, destroys and damages people's property, is ineffective, and doesn't really fix the issue.

3. You can't work on a problem until you understand the root issue.

5. Illegal immigrants are no more likely to commit crimes than regular citizens, and in fact, commit less crime on average. This includes illegals from central America.

6. The drugs and crime related to the south of the border is a result of the war on drugs more than anything else. Deal with that and you deal with the real problem. Terrorists can just as easily get here through legal means, and it's easier in fact. How many terrorists that have attacked America came in through illegal means?

8. They are filling a demand. It's already been covered numerous times how immigrants don't really impact natives. In the case of very low-skill labor, you should deal with the companies that hire them rather than simply attack the immigrants.

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7 hours ago, Flip Flop said:

There is nothing counter to American values about restricting immigration.  We have no duty to accept immigrants and immigrants have no right to demand entry.  As it relates to rights, immigration policy is arbitrary.

Caution is a completely legitimate reason to impede immigration.  The threat of importing terrorism is very real.

No more of a threat than how terrorists have always come here legally or were grown natively and did there damage. Your argument could be used to support going into complete isolation like 19th century Japan.

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2 hours ago, Free Radical said:

1. You're not going to convince me that a wall is going to solve the issue. The walls we've already put up haven't helped, and have caused numerous problems as it is, without really fixing anything. It costs tons of money, destroys and damages people's property, is ineffective, and doesn't really fix the issue.

3. You can't work on a problem until you understand the root issue.

5. Illegal immigrants are no more likely to commit crimes than regular citizens, and in fact, commit less crime on average. This includes illegals from central America.

6. The drugs and crime related to the south of the border is a result of the war on drugs more than anything else. Deal with that and you deal with the real problem. Terrorists can just as easily get here through legal means, and it's easier in fact. How many terrorists that have attacked America came in through illegal means?

8. They are filling a demand. It's already been covered numerous times how immigrants don't really impact natives. In the case of very low-skill labor, you should deal with the companies that hire them rather than simply attack the immigrants.

1) really? if a prison yard only has a fence around one third of its perimeter are you going to claim fences don't work to keep the prisoners in? because that is what you just did

3) only if you are assuming it is our responsibility to solve the problems of other countries or to have an open border policy

5) did I say they were? that is the most ridiculous argument. we have a crime problem so it doesn't matter if we allow more people in that will also commit crimes. the difference is that I don't trivialize the victims of crimes committed by American citizens while you are trivializing the victims of crimes from illegals with that lame argument 

6) is it a fact that it is easier for terrorists to come in legally than illegally? please present some hard evidence of that 'fact'. our government has already reported that terrorists have crossed the border. I guess you also leave your home's doors wide open 24/7 and say it's perfectly ok because you haven't been robbed yet. it's common sense

8) You sit there and talk about how there isn't enough good jobs for Americans and that greedy corporations are holding the middle and lower class down. you can't have that both ways man...if there aren't enough for existing Americans then there aren't enough if you had a few million people to the population.
and I never said don't go after the corporations as well...fine the crap out of them and throw those responsible in jail as well

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22 hours ago, Flip Flop said:

There is nothing counter to American values about restricting immigration.  We have no duty to accept immigrants and immigrants have no right to demand entry.  As it relates to rights, immigration policy is arbitrary.

Caution is a completely legitimate reason to impede immigration.  The threat of importing terrorism is very real.

No, in fact we are a very generous nation for taking on legal immigrants in terms of sheer numbers.  Not only are we generous with legal immigration but, apparently we also have an open door policy for illegal immigration which low end estimates are 12 million people.  Caution is a legitimate question regarding safety and jobs for the american people. 

For data on the number of new immigrants in the United States compared with other countries, we turned to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development. Formed in 1961, OECD collects data on a wide range of topics, including immigration.

The OECD is in the process of standardizing the data for 2013, but the United States will be in the top spot for the sheer number of immigrants with nearly one million immigrants. Provisional figures by OECD show that Germany had 466,000 while the United Kingdom had 291,000.

 

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1. The fence doesn't stop them from going over right there. It isn't much of a deterrent. If people can sneak across the N-S Korean DMZ, which has happened numerous times, we're not going to be blocking them from coming across something over 10 times the length.

2. Start addressing the issues we're creating would be a good start. The war on drugs has fueled the cartels for thirty years, and our pathway to legal immigration here is ridiculous.

3. I don't believe we have a big crime problem, and I'm not putting any special note on victims of crime either way.

4. Name the last terrorist act committed on U.S. soil where the perpetrator came across the border illegally. I'll wait.

5. My point is that our system is set up against the lower and middle class. Anti-union, corporations snuggled up with government, a party that wants to completely remove any and all assistance at any chance it can get, etc.

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31 minutes ago, Free Radical said:

1. The fence doesn't stop them from going over right there. It isn't much of a deterrent. If people can sneak across the N-S Korean DMZ, which has happened numerous times, we're not going to be blocking them from coming across something over 10 times the length.

2. Start addressing the issues we're creating would be a good start. The war on drugs has fueled the cartels for thirty years, and our pathway to legal immigration here is ridiculous.

3. I don't believe we have a big crime problem, and I'm not putting any special note on victims of crime either way.

4. Name the last terrorist act committed on U.S. soil where the perpetrator came across the border illegally. I'll wait.

5. My point is that our system is set up against the lower and middle class. Anti-union, corporations snuggled up with government, a party that wants to completely remove any and all assistance at any chance it can get, etc.

1) as I stated, it wouldn't be just a fence

2) I agree on the war of drugs. However, we have no obligation to changed our immigration laws to suit others.

3) That is nice that you don't think we have a big crime problems. I am sure the victims of the crimes I posted feel differently especially seeing as those senseless deaths could have been potentially avoided through better border security

4) So your position is do nothing until someone manages to kill a crap load of people. Gotcha. I think that is an asinine position considering our government has admitted that terrorists have crossed the border illegally, 

5) I agree. If that is your position, then you have to agree that allowing millions of uneducated, unskilled immigrants in without first addressing our issues would only make the positions of the lower and middle class worse.

I know you like to say that Americans aren't lazy and that everything is the fault of rich people (and I do agree to some extent), but I can cite one particular industry that shows you are wrong. My wife worked for the Marriott corporation for about 10 years and the hotel and people working in the hotel and hospitality industry will tell you that it is very difficult to find supervisors. They have trouble finding employees with good work ethic and good customer service skills. This isn't something that requires a college education...these are skills anybody can develop and attain a middle class income. Yet the industry has trouble finding good employees. That isn't the fault of the CEO of a hotel chain...the positions are there for the taking.

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1 minute ago, Dago 3.0 said:

1) as I stated, it wouldn't be just a fence

2) I agree on the war of drugs. However, we have no obligation to changed our immigration laws to suit others.

3) That is nice that you don't think we have a big crime problems. I am sure the victims of the crimes I posted feel differently especially seeing as those senseless deaths could have been potentially avoided through better border security

4) So your position is do nothing until someone manages to kill a crap load of people. Gotcha. I think that is an asinine position considering our government has admitted that terrorists have crossed the border illegally, 

5) I agree. If that is your position, then you have to agree that allowing millions of uneducated, unskilled immigrants in without first addressing our issues would only make the positions of the lower and middle class worse.

I know you like to say that Americans aren't lazy and that everything is the fault of rich people (and I do agree to some extent), but I can cite one particular industry that shows you are wrong. My wife worked for the Marriott corporation for about 10 years and the hotel and people working in the hotel and hospitality industry will tell you that it is very difficult to find supervisors. They have trouble finding employees with good work ethic and good customer service skills. This isn't something that requires a college education...these are skills anybody can develop and attain a middle class income. Yet the industry has trouble finding good employees. That isn't the fault of the CEO of a hotel chain...the positions are there for the taking.

1. I'm saying that a fence is just a mild band-aid that is grossly expensive without really fixing the core issues. 

2. I firmly believe that if someone wants to come here and contribute, we should give them that opportunity. Most of us wouldn't be here today if we held the same attitude when we were bringing in Chinese, Irish, Jewish, etc. immigrants.

3. Emotional arguments aren't for dictating policy. The fact is that crime is at a 30 year low, and immigrants, illegal or not, is a lower than average crime demographic. 

4. My position with dealing with terrorism is much like my position with dealing with the cartels and illegal immigration. Start dealing with the factors that are leading to the problems rather than finding half-*** ways to deal with the aftermath. Our foreign policy has created these terrorists, and pretending like closing off the border is going to protect us when a lot of these guys either come here legally or are home grown is just a false sense of security. 

5. Not necessarily. Numerous studies show that illegal immigrants aren't really competing with native born workers. The only exception is in the case of high-school drop-outs, and even then it isn't large enough to warrant such a massive reaction. On top of that, the illegal population in this country has declined by nearly 1 million since 2009. 

To your story: Are the positions compensated well enough and is it competitive to other positions in the industry? Do they properly advertise these positions through the correct channels? 

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1 hour ago, Free Radical said:

1. I'm saying that a fence is just a mild band-aid that is grossly expensive without really fixing the core issues. 

2. I firmly believe that if someone wants to come here and contribute, we should give them that opportunity. Most of us wouldn't be here today if we held the same attitude when we were bringing in Chinese, Irish, Jewish, etc. immigrants.

3. Emotional arguments aren't for dictating policy. The fact is that crime is at a 30 year low, and immigrants, illegal or not, is a lower than average crime demographic. 

4. My position with dealing with terrorism is much like my position with dealing with the cartels and illegal immigration. Start dealing with the factors that are leading to the problems rather than finding half-*** ways to deal with the aftermath. Our foreign policy has created these terrorists, and pretending like closing off the border is going to protect us when a lot of these guys either come here legally or are home grown is just a false sense of security. 

5. Not necessarily. Numerous studies show that illegal immigrants aren't really competing with native born workers. The only exception is in the case of high-school drop-outs, and even then it isn't large enough to warrant such a massive reaction. On top of that, the illegal population in this country has declined by nearly 1 million since 2009. 

To your story: Are the positions compensated well enough and is it competitive to other positions in the industry? Do they properly advertise these positions through the correct channels? 

1) as compared to the money we are spending for no results. God forbid we try something different

2) by that attitude we should have never ended segregation or given women the right to vote. times change and polices need to change with them

3) irrelevant. it is still an unnecessary addition to the crime in our country. It is not right to prioritize illegals over the citizens of this country which is what is happening by dismissing or trivializing the victims of the crimes

4) don't necessarily disagree but even if we stopped meddling today we wouldn't be safe. that would take at least two generations....there are people whose entire power base hinges on anti-American policy. why do you act like we can't work to solve both problems? it isn't an either/or situation

5) again...how can there not be enough quality jobs to go around now and not make the situation worse by allowing millions of uneducated, unskilled people in? you cannot have one without the other....it is an impossibility. the fact that the illegal population has declined is irrelevant if you were to have your way

as to my story...I am not just talking about inside Marriott. It is an industry wide problem but I can tell you that such positions pay $15+ per hour here in Louisiana and as much as $40k. Yes, positions are advertised on the chain's website, Monster.com, local newspapers/websites, and job fairs. The truth is that it is hard to find people willing to do the job right

edit: good discussion tho!

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I hate to bump this thread.  But this quote from The Greatest should end it once and for all anyway:

I am a Muslim and there is nothing Islamic about killing innocent people in Paris, San Bernardino, or anywhere else in the world. True Muslims know that the ruthless violence of so called Islamic jihadists goes against the very tenets of our religion.

We as Muslims have to stand up to those who use Islam to advance their own personal agenda. They have alienated many from learning about Islam. True Muslims know or should know that it goes against our religion to try and force Islam on anybody.

Speaking as someone who has never been accused of political correctness, I believe that our political leaders should use their position to bring understanding about the religion of Islam and clarify that these misguided murderers have perverted people's views on what Islam really is.

I have made the same point many times on the Boards.  Ali said it much better.

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With great sadness, I have to say, I TOLD YOU SO. These victims, 50+ the wounded are citizens, Americans, like you and I. These people were not guilty of anything more than being American with the further tag (by ISLAMIC NAZI's) as being gay. Under the putrid Islamic umbrella, being Gay is a death sentence across the Islamic world. These fanatics, whom we SHOULD be at war with, just brought their brand of Hate to America.

Is this uncommon? No, the Islamic Jihad being waged across the planet see's Christian school girls burned alive in a Cage. Shows mothers Burning their daughters, fathers killing their daughters and wives in HONOR killings, routinely.

Who is the enemy? Islamic Radicals who number in the Millions. We can also blame, Political Correctness, here and in Europe. Our insane policy's along with the enemy who states Daily they want to kill us, are GETTING people killed.

What needs to be done? Declare war against ISIS and take the war to them in Syria, Iraq. Kill these ******** once and for all and shut down their PR campaign in which they recruit new Minds full of Mush like this Orlando Islamic killer. Once and for all, kill these ******** and show the Islamic world their heads, show the world that if you kill Americans, you will be hunted like dogs. These fanatics only understand brute force. SHOW THEM OUR WAR FACE.

What else can be done? Throw out, forever the insane Political Correctness that allows for these types of issues.

1. Refugee programs come to a halt. No more open boarders in Mexico, and do a top to bottom review of the criminals and associations here in America that associate with terrorists activities LIKE CAIR. Build the dam wall already. It's already been passed through congress. Appropriate the monies by taking monies ear marked to go to Mexico. We give countries across the globe Billions every year. We should now reexamine our gifts, pull back from these gifts and charge countries for their protection and penalties for invading our borders ie. Mexico, and the Saudi's. We also safe guard countries across the globe with troops, billions and technology. These countries, like Japan should be paying for this gift as our expenses to do so should not be shouldered entirely on the American tax payer.

2. Uphold the Gun laws already on the book - The insanity that is the Obama administration shows many examples of their intent to skurt the rule of law. They are opening the prisons for many felons and they don't prosecute felons who run afoul of the law in many instances. The Obama administration see's racism or unfairness in sentencing guidelines and what does he do? Opens up jail cells, floods our cities with convicts, not to mention illegals, and people aren't being shut down when they go afoul of our existing laws.

3. Profile - Israel profiles and they do a dam good job of thwarting airport massacres as well as massacres in their cities. We don't hear a lot about it, but that is the POINT. In America, the refusal to use common sense allowed this Islamic Killer to not only threaten his co workers, he bought firearms just days ago, even though the FBI had him questioned twice. The Phobia issue by the Progressive left has given rise to radicals to come in and kill, although many are already known. The Boston bombers were well known. The California Islamic killers were known, heck, just look at their Facebook accounts. This Islamic killer was even associated with a suicide bomber, but Nothing was done. This has to change.

4. Elect Donald Trump. Hillary will further entrench America in these radical leftist rules. 

To all those poor souls who have left our world, RIP. To those maimed and to the families left behind, may God Bless you and your departed loved ones. 

The time for America to get real, is now. This, like 9/11 is not a time for America to further divide, it's the time for us to get our heads out of our collective rear ends.

Last but not least. Gun FREE Zones are killing fields. If anyone, multiple people had of been carrying, this slaughter may have been stopped much sooner. Even in the chaos, this shooter had a single shot hand gun and a single shot rifle. Trained citizens, who shoot, practice and know how to use a weapon, could have prevented deaths. As we all know, the only way to stop a killer with a gun is for another good guy to show up with a gun.

Edited by dirtyhairy
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Didn't DH support Ted Cruz for president?

On Friday, three Republican presidential candidates — Louisiana Gov. Bobby Jindal, Texas Sen. Ted Cruz and former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee — 

attended an event in Des Moines, Iowa, hosted by a controversial Colorado pastor who has frequently advocated against gay people, including that the government should put them to death

The event, dubbed the National Religious Liberties Conference, was hosted by pastor Kevin Swanson, who delivered a fiery speech in which he said Biblical law calls for "homosexuals" to be executed. 

"Yes, Leviticus 20:13 calls for the death penalty for homosexuals," he said. Swanson said he was "willing to go to jail for standing on the truth of the word of God."

Also this from the pastor's speech...

  • Defended a Ugandan measure to make homosexuality a criminal offense punishable by life imprisonment or the death penalty, saying he was glad the country was “standing strong” by adopting extreme anti-gay laws.

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