Grades Through Week 12 (Pff)

[Intellectually Honest]

Except that it's not just players....it's TEAMS and personnel departments. And analysts.

And no, I'm not asserting a fallacy as I am not suggesting that their "authority" or the authority of their users results in the establishment of a FACT through the use of deductive logic. I said they were a voice.

Now, you seem to be adhering to a system of opinion-based relativism, which has its own logical issues. Yes, they have an opinion. Yes, you have an opinion. However, there is nothing to suggest that the two opinions are of equal weight or map to reality in an equally accurate fashion. To assume the "its just an opinion" is correct is to undermine almost everything ever stated outside of the realm of mathematics and deductive logic.

Not all voices or "eyeballs" are equal. And to PFF's credit, they have received a degree of sponsorship from a lot of qualified eyeballs.

So what. It doesn't make it any more than just an opinion. It doesn't matter if the over whelming vast majority of football viewers use it: from fans to owners. That is just an appeal to popularity. A popular opinion holds no more weight than an unpopular one. Without a methodology and using empirical evidence and logic to make those inferences it doesn't mean squat.

[Intellectually Honest]

Ahh but you're assuming that our ignorance of the specific reasoning behind their opinion leads us to believe that there ISNT a specific reason underlying their opinions. That isn't true. Of course they have a methodology. Or course they have reasoning. The fact that you arent privvy to their particular line of thinking doesnt make their line of thinking flawed or non-existent.

What is their criteria? I already asked another supporter of PFF on this thread, Evil Dan Quinn, and he conceded it was the eye ball test. Are you saying you disagree with that, and it is something else?

[Intellectually Honest]

Except that it's not just players....it's TEAMS and personnel departments. And analysts.

And no, I'm not asserting a fallacy as I am not suggesting that their "authority" or the authority of their users results in the establishment of a FACT through the use of deductive logic. I said they were a voice.

Now, you seem to be adhering to a system of opinion-based relativism, which has its own logical issues. Yes, they have an opinion. Yes, you have an opinion. However, there is nothing to suggest that the two opinions are of equal weight or map to reality in an equally accurate fashion. To assume the "its just an opinion" is correct is to undermine almost everything ever stated outside of the realm of mathematics and deductive logic.

Not all voices or "eyeballs" are equal. And to PFF's credit, they have received a degree of sponsorship from a lot of qualified eyeballs.

So because PFF is sponsered by what you call "qualified eyeballs" that somehow it give their opinion more weight. What about the NFL executives, player personal, and players that disagree with PFF, which there are plenty. Are you going to disregard their "qualified eyeballs"?

Edited December 4, 2015 by Intellectually Honest

[SyCo]

What is their criteria? I already asked another supporter of PFF on this thread, Evil Dan Quinn, and he conceded it was the eye ball test. Are you saying you disagree with that, and it is something else?

What's a criteria that works for you? can we go any further than someone looking at a player with their eyes and determining it was a good or bad pay.

[Intellectually Honest]

Except that it's not just players....it's TEAMS and personnel departments. And analysts.

And no, I'm not asserting a fallacy as I am not suggesting that their "authority" or the authority of their users results in the establishment of a FACT through the use of deductive logic. I said they were a voice.

Now, you seem to be adhering to a system of opinion-based relativism, which has its own logical issues. Yes, they have an opinion. Yes, you have an opinion. However, there is nothing to suggest that the two opinions are of equal weight or map to reality in an equally accurate fashion. To assume the "its just an opinion" is correct is to undermine almost everything ever stated outside of the realm of mathematics and deductive logic.

Not all voices or "eyeballs" are equal. And to PFF's credit, they have received a degree of sponsorship from a lot of qualified eyeballs.

I am not adhering to opinion based relativism. I am simply saying you can't have a debate when it's opinion vs opinion. I have no problem with the OP asking for PFF skeptics for logic and reason. But that needs to come from both sides of the argument not just one. It makes no sense just to throw PFF grades into the mix since it is not logic and reason and just the opinions of those who made the grades to begin with.

If one group needs logic and reason, so does the other.

[Intellectually Honest]

What's a criteria that works for you? can we go any further than someone looking at a player with their eyes and determining it was a good or bad pay.

I already answered this. Disputing opinions is meaningless. I don't care if it is yours, mine or PFFs. Without evidence to back up our arguments and using logic to interprit what we are seeing, there is no debate.

My point is PFF grades simply muddies the waters since it is not facts being given but someone else's eye ball test. Why should I trust someone else's eye ball test vs my own. Why should you?

If we are going to have a debate, lets just stick to the facts rather than bringing someone else's opinion to the mix, as if that matters.

[SyCo]

I already answered this. Disputing opinions is meaningless. I don't care if it is yours, mine or PFFs. Without evidence to back up our arguments and using logic to interprit what we are seeing, there is no debate.

My point is PFF grades simply muddies the waters since it is not facts being given but someone else's eye ball test. Why should I trust someone else's eye ball test vs my own. Why should you?

If we are going to have a debate, lets just stick to the facts rather than bringing someone else's opinion to the mix, as if that matters.

why should I? because I want to. you dont have to do anything you dont want to do. i dont have time to watch every single play and every single player.. ill let someone do that for me and tell me what they saw.

it isnt that serious anyways, it's not a life or death situation, governments wont collapse based on the information they provide..at worse, someone will have the wrong impression of a player...oh no

[Intellectually Honest]

why should I? because I want to. you dont have to do anything you dont want to do. i dont have time to watch every single play and every single player.. ill let someone do that for me and tell me what they saw.

it isnt that serious anyways, it's not a life or death situation, governments wont collapse based on the information they provide..at worse, someone will have the wrong impression of a player...oh no

I never claimed you are telling me I have to. I don't know why you keep bringing this up. I was addressing what the OP said, and gave reasons why I don't accept PFF grades and I made logical arguments for it. Why does this concern you?

Edited December 4, 2015 by Intellectually Honest

[SyCo]

I never claimed you are telling me I have to. I don't know why you keep bringing this up. I was addressing what the OP said, and gave reasons why I don't accept PFF grades and I made logical arguments for it. Why does this concern you?

you quoted me, and inside the quote asked "why should i". thats why i said you dont have to do anything you dont want to do.

[Intellectually Honest]

you quoted me, and inside the quote asked "why should i". thats why i said you dont have to do anything you dont want to do.

Well since you initially responded to me after I responded to the OP, because OP was using PFF grades, for whatever reason, and asked people to give reasons to disregard them rather than just saying they are stupid, which I did.

You responded to me asking what criteria I was looking for. I was simply responded by asking for any. Which you eventually conceded it was an eye ball test.

So if it is an eyeball test, why would the OP even bring PFF grades into the discussion to begin with? Given the fact that you are questioning me questioning him, I inferred you agreed with the OP. Do you agree with the OP?

Edited December 4, 2015 by Intellectually Honest

[A-TowN.-]

What was a thread about our lack luster players in our team has turned into a debate about the credibility of a website. Smh.

[SyCo]

Well since you initially responded to me after I responded to the OP, because OP was using PFF grades, for whatever reason, and asked people to give reasons to disregard them rather than just saying they are stupid, which I did.

You responded to me asking what criteria I was looking for. I was simply responded by asking for any. Which you eventually conceded it was an eye ball test.

So if it is an eyeball test, why would the OP even bring PFF grades into the discussion to begin with? Given the fact that you are questioning me questioning him, I inferred you agreed with the OP. Do you agree with the OP?

[TeamPlayer1]

Well, let's look at some facts concerning one of our players.Beasley:20 tackles,2 sacks,1 ff, 1 int. Shane Ray:8 tackles, 2 sacks. Randy Gregory:6 tackles, 0 sacks. The legend Jadevon Clowney:1.5 sacks, 1 ff, playing across from Watt and of course Dante Fowler is out this year.

[Falcanuck]

Kayoh is PFF

[HEIST]

Well, let's look at some facts concerning one of our players.Beasley:20 tackles,2 sacks,1 ff, 1 int. Shane Ray:8 tackles, 2 sacks. Randy Gregory:6 tackles, 0 sacks. The legend Jadevon Clowney:1.5 sacks, 1 ff, playing across from Watt and of course Dante Fowler is out this year.

To be fair all of the other players you mentioned have been out with injury for at least 4 weeks each... which is a + to Beasley I suppose.

[TeamPlayer1]

To be fair, Clowney and Ray have played 9 and missed 2 and Gregory has missed 4. Gregory's next sack will be his first. This is according to nfl.com.

[DoYouSeeWhatHappensLarry]

So what. It doesn't make it any more than just an opinion. It doesn't matter if the over whelming vast majority of football viewers use it: from fans to owners. That is just an appeal to popularity. A popular opinion holds no more weight than an unpopular one. Without a methodology and using empirical evidence and logic to make those inferences it doesn't mean squat.

Again, such a methodology exists. Such empirical evidence exists. Further, just because a popular opinion does not make said opinion de facto correct, the fact that it is an opinion does not it place it on equal footing with all other opinions. You're trying to shirk the duty here.

You're essentially arguing that your ignorance of their methodology renders their methodology incorrect. That's a terrible argument.

Did you get your "Logic For Dummies" book in the mail this week?

[DoYouSeeWhatHappensLarry]

So because PFF is sponsered by what you call "qualified eyeballs" that somehow it give their opinion more weight. What about the NFL executives, player personal, and players that disagree with PFF, which there are plenty. Are you going to disregard their "qualified eyeballs"?

Yes, it does.

Expertise is a real thing. That's why we have doctors and lawyers and chemists and engineers. Because superior levels of training, experience and knowledge across a decent sized spectrum of similarly situated practitioners leads to the development of things like expertise, consensus, etc.

The fact that a wide spectrum of experienced, knowledgeable people in football give some credence to PFF's ratings, scores, methodology, etc., strongly suggests that their opinions are meritorious. That doesnt mean reasonable minds can't disagree, of course they can. But this suggestion that the existence of disagreement among well-qualified individuals somehow renders every opinion expressed by PFF moot is incorrect. And somehow, thats not as bad as your "its only opinions!" argument as it has been applied to the general consumers of football.

You're not in a world where deductive logic has much of a place. I'm not quite sure why you think you're getting anywhere in trying to apply it.

[DoYouSeeWhatHappensLarry]

I never claimed you are telling me I have to. I don't know why you keep bringing this up. I was addressing what the OP said, and gave reasons why I don't accept PFF grades and I made logical arguments for it. Why does this concern you?

And no, no you didnt. You didn't give reasons why you dont accept PFF's grades. You predicated your rejection of their grades on your lack of access to their criteria. Again, that's not logical. Not at all.

[Intellectually Honest]

And no, no you didnt. You didn't give reasons why you dont accept PFF's grades. You predicated your rejection of their grades on your lack of access to their criteria. Again, that's not logical. Not at all.

A lack of a criteria is a logical reason not to accept PFF or anything else for that matter. You need to have a standard in order to say someone is playing well or doing badly for instance. If there is no methodology in how someone is graded in this case, then the grades are meaningless.

[Intellectually Honest]

Yes, it does.

Expertise is a real thing. That's why we have doctors and lawyers and chemists and engineers. Because superior levels of training, experience and knowledge across a decent sized spectrum of similarly situated practitioners leads to the development of things like expertise, consensus, etc.

The fact that a wide spectrum of experienced, knowledgeable people in football give some credence to PFF's ratings, scores, methodology, etc., strongly suggests that their opinions are meritorious. That doesnt mean reasonable minds can't disagree, of course they can. But this suggestion that the existence of disagreement among well-qualified individuals somehow renders every opinion expressed by PFF moot is incorrect. And somehow, thats not as bad as your "its only opinions!" argument as it has been applied to the general consumers of football.

You're not in a world where deductive logic has much of a place. I'm not quite sure why you think you're getting anywhere in trying to apply it.

I never claimed that experts don't exist. So saying that experts exist is a moot point since that was not an issue. The issue is if those who grade player for PFF are actual experts and what criteria do they use to grade the players. Even if you think they are experts, name me a guy from PFF and his credentials to call him an expert.

Edited December 4, 2015 by Intellectually Honest

[Intellectually Honest]

Again, such a methodology exists. Such empirical evidence exists. Further, just because a popular opinion does not make said opinion de facto correct, the fact that it is an opinion does not it place it on equal footing with all other opinions. You're trying to shirk the duty here.

You're essentially arguing that your ignorance of their methodology renders their methodology incorrect. That's a terrible argument.

Did you get your "Logic For Dummies" book in the mail this week?

You keep insisting there is a methodology, and I ask you what it is and you have no answers. I didn't say whether the methodology is correct or not because you haven't given any.

Do you even know what logic is?

Edited December 4, 2015 by Intellectually Honest

[krammmit]

Matt Ryans run blocking sucks!

/purple

[Intellectually Honest]

Yeah putting a gif in here is not a answer to my question. Do you agree with the OP, as in using PFF as a source for basing one's arguments on for debating football?

[SyCo]

Yeah putting a gif in here is not a answer to my question. Do you agree with the OP, as in using PFF as a source for basing one's arguments on for debating football?

yes