Yes, Another Ryan Thread, But With Answers

[74ice]

It is the scheme!!, let's agree on somethings first

-Ryan is not an elite QB, he's an over average QB and one that can win a SB, like Flacco and Eli, elite QBs could play in any system and do well, Ryan is not and needs support...

-Ryan is a rhythm, timing passer,

Remember his first NFL pass...steps 1, 2, 3 ,4 , 5 back foot hits the ground and throw

-his best asset is his brain and yes he needs a nice pocket to really excel, he is not that great at improvising

shanahans system requires him to turn his back to the D, requires boot legs, play action movement, and doesn't allow him to have total control at the line with plays, requires him to be lighter.. which equals less strength

In shanahans system you lock in on one read(Julio), then dump to the TE or RB

Koetters had multiple options, multiple route trees and flexibility at the line, imagine if we had the zone blocking running(freeman) but Koetters passing, I think Ryan would be ok

So what's off with Ryan, his timing, accuracy, and arm strength

A 30 year old year QB with multiple pro bowls doesn't just regress in year 8, without something major changing....system or injury, someone give me an example otherwise

It's the system

[JDaveG]

Your assessment of the system is way off. It's designed to allow the QB to go through his progressions quickly and then hit a check down to the RB or FB quickly to get positive yards. That's why Montana always managed to get to his 3rd and 4th read -- because he was going through them so quickly and trusting the timing of the offense. The TE has been one of the first 3 reads all season, and we hit him a lot. If Ryan is a rhythm, timing passer (and I agree with you he is), this system is perfect for his skillset. It's exactly what the WCO is -- a rhythm, timing based offense.

It is the system, but it isn't that the system is designed as you say. It's that Ryan hasn't yet mastered it. Everyone wants a quick fix. There isn't one. He has to learn the system and learn to trust it. When that happens, he'll improve. How much is anyone's guess, but there is no sense in pretending he can't ever learn it or that he's done as a QB. Neither is true.

[E. T.]

I'll add to your word improvise... and say he's inconsistent as well.

[74ice]

I would agree with you on somethings, I don't remember Montana, turning his back to the d as much, or boot legs, or play action roll outs as much, shanahans system is a little different than Bill walshs, Also shanahans requires an over reliance on the # 1 WR, his history proves it

[Guest Dirty Bird Nation ®]

Get rid of Ryan and Shanny both.

Problem solved

[JDaveG]

I would agree with you on somethings, I don't remember Montana, turning his back to the d as much, or boot legs, or play action roll outs as much, shanahans system is a little different than Bill walshs, Also shanahans requires an over reliance on the # 1 WR, his history proves it

So did Walsh's. That doesn't mean Montana was locking onto Jerry Rice and then dumping it to Roger Craig. The no. 1 receiver in this offense will always get the most looks, but that's not the same as suggesting the read is "Julio, Freeman, bail."

And yes, Montana ran a ton of bootlegs. A ton.

[JDaveG]

To illustrate my point, who caught Montana's most famous pass -- "the catch?"

[E. T.]

I would agree with you on somethings, I don't remember Montana, turning his back to the d as much, or boot legs, or play action roll outs as much, shanahans system is a little different than Bill walshs, Also shanahans requires an over reliance on the # 1 WR, his history proves it

If Ryan said screw it and targets other open receivers against shannys wishes, will he get benched? This is where I think Ryan as a man and as a professional player needs to step up and take control. Having balls in the NFL is a necessity to win.

[74ice]

To illustrate my point, who caught Montana's most famous pass -- "the catch?"

I'll give you the bootleg, on that one, miraculous catch

1st read on the play, WR

2nd read on that play, RB,

3rd read on that play, TE

That's what I said about the WCO

Seriously, walshs WCO offense relied on a lot on 2wr, 1 TE, 1 fb(remember Tom Rathman) and 1 RB, the CATCH was exactly that lineup. shanahan relies more on 3 WR sets, which is worse if you think about, regarding the reliance on Jones, just like he did with Andre johnson and Pierre Garçon

[JDaveG]

I'll give you the bootleg, on that one, miraculous catch

1st read on the play, WR

2nd read on that play, RB,

3rd read on that play, TE

That's what I said about the WCO

Seriously, walshs WCO offense relied on a lot on 2wr, 1 TE, 1 fb(remember Tom Rathman) and 1 RB, the CATCH was exactly that lineup. shanahan relies more on 3 WR sets, which is worse if you think about, regarding the reliance on Jones, just like he did with Andre johnson and Pierre Garçon

It wasn't a bootleg. It was a sprint option. There is a reason it's still a goal line staple to this day. We've run it this season.

I also don't think the RB was implicated in the pattern. The read was Soloman, then Clark, with a run option if both were covered. Rice was on the other side of the play I believe, and the running backs were in pass protection.

P.S., Dwight Clark is a wide receiver. And it was a 3 WR set.

[JDaveG]

Seriously, walshs WCO offense relied on a lot on 2wr, 1 TE, 1 fb(remember Tom Rathman) and 1 RB, the CATCH was exactly that lineup. shanahan relies more on 3 WR sets, which is worse if you think about, regarding the reliance on Jones, just like he did with Andre johnson and Pierre Garçon

As to this, it's simply not true. They ran a LOT of 3 wide sets, and even some 4 wide sets. They didn't do a lot of shotgun -- that's something that's been worked into the system over time. But they absolutely ran more spread looks than you seem to remember. The base set for any WCO is 21 personnel, but they probably run base less than a third of the time.