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Jdaveg Question Concerning The New Pope


Sobeit
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If I was Catholic I'd be ashamed of this Pope. Siding with darwinists is ridiculous for the leader of the Catholic church. Apparently this Pope isn't familiar with the Bible.

I'm still interested in JDaves take on it by all accounts I think he is a well meaning christian and seems very much in the know of church history and I am sure he is well aware of the Jesuits and their history.

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JDave is Orthodox.

Greek Orthodox? It is kind of a broad title. Anyway I have never asked him but got the impression he was Catholic from a couple of his post? If he is Greek Orthodox I am really interested in hearing what he thinks of the new pope.

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Jdave's church is Eastern Orthodox, IIRC.

Ah ok. All the Orthodox churches can be a bit confusing to keep up with. Anyway thanks for answering. Hopefully he will be on sometime soon still interested in seeing what he thinks about this Pope and Jesuits.

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Yeah, sorry -- silentbob is Catholic, so he'd be a better person to ask.

My personal take, as an outsider, is I love Pope Francis' overtures to the Eastern Church (such as when he refers to himself as "the bishop of Rome, who presides in love over the other churches," etc.). And I think he brings a really nice pastoral approach to the Papacy, which is a nice change of tone coming on the heels of two solid theologians (who I also respect greatly, by the way).

I think the political take on Pope Francis is funny for the most part. People on both sides seem to think he's the Commie Pope, coming to take away our capitalism and ordain women and same-sex couples and give all our money away to the poor. But the reality is, Pope Francis and Pope Benedict have extremely similar views on all those issues. Benedict just approached them from the standpoint of a theologian and dogmatician, and Francis approaches them as a pastor. So the tone is somewhat different, but the doctrine is the same.

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Yeah, sorry -- silentbob is Catholic, so he'd be a better person to ask.

My personal take, as an outsider, is I love Pope Francis' overtures to the Eastern Church (such as when he refers to himself as "the bishop of Rome, who presides in love over the other churches," etc.). And I think he brings a really nice pastoral approach to the Papacy, which is a nice change of tone coming on the heels of two solid theologians (who I also respect greatly, by the way).

I think the political take on Pope Francis is funny for the most part. People on both sides seem to think he's the Commie Pope, coming to take away our capitalism and ordain women and same-sex couples and give all our money away to the poor. But the reality is, Pope Francis and Pope Benedict have extremely similar views on all those issues. Benedict just approached them from the standpoint of a theologian and dogmatician, and Francis approaches them as a pastor. So the tone is somewhat different, but the doctrine is the same.

What about his call for global governance? Your thoughts on the Jesuits? I was under the impression that Jesuits could not become Pope.

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Well I was kind of hoping for a discussion on his take on the Pope and the Jesuit order. How ironic he thinks it is that a Jesuit Pope calls for global governance considering that the founder of the order was questioned by the Inquisition for his sympathy to a gnostic group known as Los Alumbrados. Then to only at a later date to have a Jesuit schooled Adam Weishaupt infiltrate masonry and set up the Illuminati.

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I still don't understand why everyone wants to beat up Jdave for Catholicism. Yall need to meet silent bob in the Waffle House parking lot for that.

I'm not wanting to beat Jdave up I was just curious his take on it. I like Dave he is very smart and knows a good bit about church history. I was just wondering if he was aware or had any thoughts on it. As I have also said I did not think that Jesuits could be Pope not sure why I thought that, but it has been in my head for a long time.

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I haven't read anything about a call for global governance. I'll try to look into it.

As for the Jesuits, Pope Francis is the first Jesuit Pope in history, but there is nothing I am aware of saying their members cannot be Pope. Further, I can't think of any practical reason they should not be, since the Jesuits have historically been champions of the papacy, tensions on doctrinal issues aside. I would say again that I think the notion that Pope Francis is some sort of secular leftist political champion is nonsense, and I think a huge part of the reason it is nonsense has to do with the tensions between Jesuit educational institutions and the official dogmatic positions of the Catholic Church. It seems to me that these are more academic discussions among the Jesuits that are not intended to change doctrine. I also think Pope Francis is proving this, reiterating the historic teachings of the Catholic Church on things like abortion and homosexuality, while at the same time suggesting (rightly IMHO) that too much time is spent on those issues and not others, such as economic justice, environmental issues, etc. I think the issues you raise regarding individual Jesuits ought not be used to tar the entire organization.

Which is to say, I think secular political types and conservative Christians tend to place a lot more weight on Pope Francis' supposed leftist tendencies and Jesuit affiliation than is appropriate, and for the same reason -- both are hyper-focused on worldly, secular issues, and view the Jesuits through that lens. Most Popes are functionally Distributists in an economic sense, for example, and yet the most "liberal" Pope in history (according to his champions and detractors) called abortion "horrific" recently and said "abortion compounds the grief of many women who now carry with them deep physical and spiritual wounds after succumbing to the pressures of a secular culture which devalues God’s gift of sexuality and the right to life of the unborn." I think viewing the Jesuits as some sort of Illuminati type global organization is wrong-headed. I just don't see the issue, honestly. I have both practical issues and theological issues with the Jesuits. I don't like their loosey-goosey approach to Liturgy, for example, and I obviously disagree with their support of the Papacy as having primacy of jurisdiction over all Christians. But I don't think we should make more of them than they are. They're a religious order within the Catholic Church. And apart from a few outliers, that's all they are.

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I haven't read anything about a call for global governance. I'll try to look into it.

As for the Jesuits, Pope Francis is the first Jesuit Pope in history, but there is nothing I am aware of saying their members cannot be Pope. Further, I can't think of any practical reason they should not be, since the Jesuits have historically been champions of the papacy, tensions on doctrinal issues aside. I would say again that I think the notion that Pope Francis is some sort of secular leftist political champion is nonsense, and I think a huge part of the reason it is nonsense has to do with the tensions between Jesuit educational institutions and the official dogmatic positions of the Catholic Church. It seems to me that these are more academic discussions among the Jesuits that are not intended to change doctrine. I also think Pope Francis is proving this, reiterating the historic teachings of the Catholic Church on things like abortion and homosexuality, while at the same time suggesting (rightly IMHO) that too much time is spent on those issues and not others, such as economic justice, environmental issues, etc. I think the issues you raise regarding individual Jesuits ought not be used to tar the entire organization.

Which is to say, I think secular political types and conservative Christians tend to place a lot more weight on Pope Francis' supposed leftist tendencies and Jesuit affiliation than is appropriate, and for the same reason -- both are hyper-focused on worldly, secular issues, and view the Jesuits through that lens. Most Popes are functionally Distributists in an economic sense, for example, and yet the most "liberal" Pope in history (according to his champions and detractors) called abortion "horrific" recently and said "abortion compounds the grief of many women who now carry with them deep physical and spiritual wounds after succumbing to the pressures of a secular culture which devalues God’s gift of sexuality and the right to life of the unborn." I think viewing the Jesuits as some sort of Illuminati type global organization is wrong-headed. I just don't see the issue, honestly. I have both practical issues and theological issues with the Jesuits. I don't like their loosey-goosey approach to Liturgy, for example, and I obviously disagree with their support of the Papacy as having primacy of jurisdiction over all Christians. But I don't think we should make more of them than they are. They're a religious order within the Catholic Church. And apart from a few outliers, that's all they are.

Well my point about the Illuminati and the secret occult societies is that they are really effective cover for intelligence agencies, and I think the Jesuit order is probably one of the most successful intelligence agencies in history. I've got too much understanding of how the world really works to think the Jesuits as a Illuminati global organization, but I do understand them to be the intelligence agency for the Catholic church and the Vatican which is a Global organization.

He has said that we need global governance to combat combat economic issues and environmental issues. Needless to say I am always leery and skeptical when very wealthy groups and individuals talk about social and economic justice. It seems that they are never about lifting the worst but lowering the best while concreting their wealth and power.

Well I am not too hard on real collectivist because I think there is a place for some collectivism. Not on a large scale but on smaller ones families, neighborhoods, communities. Yeah I agree I do not get too caught up in the whole left right discussion because when I step back and look at the big picture I can see that we are on a course and most things seem to lead us further down this course and what lies in the future is far worse than anything we have yet seen in the world.

Was just interested in hearing your take on it since you seem aware of church history and figured you knew something of Jesuits, and seem sincere about your faith. Thanks for sharing.

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Well my point about the Illuminati and the secret occult societies is that they are really effective cover for intelligence agencies, and I think the Jesuit order is probably one of the most successful intelligence agencies in history. I've got too much understanding of how the world really works to think the Jesuits as a Illuminati global organization, but I do understand them to be the intelligence agency for the Catholic church and the Vatican which is a Global organization.

He has said that we need global governance to combat combat economic issues and environmental issues. Needless to say I am always leery and skeptical when very wealthy groups and individuals talk about social and economic justice. It seems that they are never about lifting the worst but lowering the best while concreting their wealth and power.

Well I am not too hard on real collectivist because I think there is a place for some collectivism. Not on a large scale but on smaller ones families, neighborhoods, communities. Yeah I agree I do not get too caught up in the whole left right discussion because when I step back and look at the big picture I can see that we are on a course and most things seem to lead us further down this course and what lies in the future is far worse than anything we have yet seen in the world.

Was just interested in hearing your take on it since you seem aware of church history and figured you knew something of Jesuits, and seem sincere about your faith. Thanks for sharing.

Ignoring the Illuminati crap...

Most of the Catholic Church's wealth is in real estate (eg. Cathedrals, churches, monasteries, etc.) and cultural artifacts (ie. art), both of which they spend a significant amount of money restoring and maintaining. It's why many view the Vatican as the keepers of European history and why it is an idiotic argument when people point out the Vatican's wealth and say they should pay for their proposed social justice programs... What are they going to do? Sell off the art and cathedrals? [Note: Not saying that you're saying this] Also, this ignores that the Vatican runs in the red because they're doing that along with spending whatever is leftover and then some on social justice programs such as soup kitchens and, maybe more importantly, the Catholic Church does not dictate law to sovereign nations, at least not anymore. The most they can do is educate their followers, remind them what God called them to do, and get them to push their nation to enact certain policies (eg. Pope Francis' latest encyclical on climate change and reminding Catholics everywhere that they are called to be good stewards of creation).

As for collectivism, the Catholic Church's teachings on social justice are based on Jesus' teachings and actions. The poor need to be taken care of, their needs to not be ignored, and to not be allowed to fall through the cracks of society, as that can lead to a whole slew of societal woes. It's not like the Church seeks to eliminate classes or confiscate the wealth of the rich, but they do want to give everyone a chance and for everyone to be treated with dignity and the best way to ensure that is through political action. An example of this would be the Christian democracy movement in Europe and was a huge factor in Germany's current economic and welfare systems. It's also not like this started with Francis since pretty much everything he preaches is about the same as his predecessors, the only real difference is that he's a much better communicator and comes off as much more friendly than Benedict XVI.

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Well my point about the Illuminati and the secret occult societies is that they are really effective cover for intelligence agencies, and I think the Jesuit order is probably one of the most successful intelligence agencies in history. I've got too much understanding of how the world really works to think the Jesuits as a Illuminati global organization, but I do understand them to be the intelligence agency for the Catholic church and the Vatican which is a Global organization.

He has said that we need global governance to combat combat economic issues and environmental issues. Needless to say I am always leery and skeptical when very wealthy groups and individuals talk about social and economic justice. It seems that they are never about lifting the worst but lowering the best while concreting their wealth and power.

Well I am not too hard on real collectivist because I think there is a place for some collectivism. Not on a large scale but on smaller ones families, neighborhoods, communities. Yeah I agree I do not get too caught up in the whole left right discussion because when I step back and look at the big picture I can see that we are on a course and most things seem to lead us further down this course and what lies in the future is far worse than anything we have yet seen in the world.

Was just interested in hearing your take on it since you seem aware of church history and figured you knew something of Jesuits, and seem sincere about your faith. Thanks for sharing.

No problem at all. I think Psychic Gibbon makes a great case for why the Catholic Church is not this rich organization (as, say, the Church of Scientology is, or even organizations such as Joel Osteen's or Creflo Dollar's). Moreover, even if they are, they put their money where their mouth is in spades. I'm Eastern Orthodox, and I have to say, the Catholic Church probably does more charity work than all other Christian organizations combined. Part of that is sheer numbers, but a huge part of it is their priests take a vow of poverty and celibacy, and so they are able to put huge resources toward things like feeding the hungry and clothing the poor.

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Ignoring the Illuminati crap...

Most of the Catholic Church's wealth is in real estate (eg. Cathedrals, churches, monasteries, etc.) and cultural artifacts (ie. art), both of which they spend a significant amount of money restoring and maintaining. It's why many view the Vatican as the keepers of European history and why it is an idiotic argument when people point out the Vatican's wealth and say they should pay for their proposed social justice programs... What are they going to do? Sell off the art and cathedrals? [Note: Not saying that you're saying this] Also, this ignores that the Vatican runs in the red because they're doing that along with spending whatever is leftover and then some on social justice programs such as soup kitchens and, maybe more importantly, the Catholic Church does not dictate law to sovereign nations, at least not anymore. The most they can do is educate their followers, remind them what God called them to do, and get them to push their nation to enact certain policies (eg. Pope Francis' latest encyclical on climate change and reminding Catholics everywhere that they are called to be good stewards of creation).

As for collectivism, the Catholic Church's teachings on social justice are based on Jesus' teachings and actions. The poor need to be taken care of, their needs to not be ignored, and to not be allowed to fall through the cracks of society, as that can lead to a whole slew of societal woes. It's not like the Church seeks to eliminate classes or confiscate the wealth of the rich, but they do want to give everyone a chance and for everyone to be treated with dignity and the best way to ensure that is through political action. An example of this would be the Christian democracy movement in Europe and was a huge factor in Germany's current economic and welfare systems. It's also not like this started with Francis since pretty much everything he preaches is about the same as his predecessors, the only real difference is that he's a much better communicator and comes off as much more friendly than Benedict XVI.

Firstly the Illuminati stuff is not crap it is very well documented.

Ok you contradict yourself somewhat. You claim it is based on the teachings of Jesus yet you then say the best way to accomplish this is through political action and democracy. I'm not sure that these things go together.

So the Catholic money is better spent maintaining historical and cultural artifacts, building hospitals fancy cathedrals, and colleges to further their Christ centered political agenda. Ok, got ya.

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No problem at all. I think Psychic Gibbon makes a great case for why the Catholic Church is not this rich organization (as, say, the Church of Scientology is, or even organizations such as Joel Osteen's or Creflo Dollar's). Moreover, even if they are, they put their money where their mouth is in spades. I'm Eastern Orthodox, and I have to say, the Catholic Church probably does more charity work than all other Christian organizations combined. Part of that is sheer numbers, but a huge part of it is their priests take a vow of poverty and celibacy, and so they are able to put huge resources toward things like feeding the hungry and clothing the poor.

Yeah after listening to a little of those guys I would have kicked the dirt off my feet if I had ever been in their church. Oh without a doubt the Catholic church does a lot of good things. Like the majority of the denominations I attribute those things to the good people within the organizations more than the organizations and power structure of those organizations themselves.

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