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DirtyBird8711

Scott Pioli Named Most Influential Falcon, But Just How Influential Is He?

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But looking for an eventual replacement isn't the same as pouring all of your resources into the defense.

The defense was at an okay place. Not great. Not elite. Decent. At a level that many defenses have succeeded with. The FO made an "over the top" move to turn a relative strength into a notable strength. And it worked. We were a good team in 2011 and a very good team in 2012. It blows that it didn't pay off with a SB....but it's not like the team cratered immediately afterward. They lost a 50/50 game against a very good football team in the conference championship. So it goes.

I agree, at least up to a point. Even though I understood the reasoning, I never agreed with the Julio trade, we were an aging team in too many key areas: Abe/Turner/TG/OL/CB. That trade also changed the culture of our defense and our team overall, we went from a balanced team offensively to trying to become a newer version of "greatest show on turf"....and our defense and depth suffered accordingly.Letting a young Lofton and Grimes walk significantly hurt as well, and that has to go on GM IMHO in not planning things out longer than beyond the immediate..

Mike Smith is and isn't alot of things, but one thing he's not is the kind of coach who can be successful with a "greatest show on turf" offense and no talent defensively. And all the injuries compounded those shortcomings even more, and we've wasted two years of our franchise QB in his prime.

I'm glad we have Julio, but I'm more excited that we're getting back to what made us successful prior to that trade....emphasis on shoring up and rebuilding our D and having more balance offensive attack,

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Wr was also a need, one can argue in 2011. Roddy white carried us to all those wins alongside turner, and he was almost done.

Anyway we've spent considerable resources on defense than we have on offense, we just didn't have the right coach to put it all together.

-Lofton (2nd)

-Chevy to the levy (3rd)

-de could not (3rd)

-Peria jellybelly (1st)

-moore (2nd)

-crisp Owens (3rd)

-Featherspoon (1st)

-Corey's Peter (3rd)

-Akeem dented (3rd)

F.A:

-Drobbery

-Ray J edwards

-grimes

That's 9 high picks including the entire 2009 draft, and 3 high profile free agents. I honestly don't think Mike smith was all that interested in acquiring high caliber personnel which is why we had a marsh mellow fluff defense. The real architect of the jags defense was probably jack del rio, who also put together a high quality denver defense.

Most of those are bust draft and bust "high profile" free agent picks. Those poor decisions are more a GM issue than a coaching issue.

And we could have gotten a more than competent WR (Torrey Smith/ Randall Cobb/Alshon Jeffrey) with one of those picks we traded...if we were a competent in those two year's draft.

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Most of those are bust draft and bust "high profile" free agent picks. Those poor decisions are more a GM issue than a coaching issue.

And we could have gotten a more than competent WR (Torrey Smith/ Randall Cobb/Alshon Jeffrey) with one of those picks we traded...if we were a competent in those two year's draft.

In comparison offense we had:

-Ryan (1st)

-Douglas (3rd)

-baker (1st)

-Gonzales (traded for a 2nd)

-Hawley

-Rodgers

-Julio

-turner (F.A)

It's very strange that we had a defensive coach, yet couldn't bring in any talent whatsoever on defense, in comparison we had a top 10 offense the entire time, don't you think?

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I agree, at least up to a point. Even though I understood the reasoning, I never agreed with the Julio trade, we were an aging team in too many key areas: Abe/Turner/TG/OL/CB. That trade also changed the culture of our defense and our team overall, we went from a balanced team offensively to trying to become a newer version of "greatest show on turf"....and our defense and depth suffered accordingly.Letting a young Lofton and Grimes walk significantly hurt as well, and that has to go on GM IMHO in not planning things out longer than beyond the immediate..

Mike Smith is and isn't alot of things, but one thing he's not is the kind of coach who can be successful with a "greatest show on turf" offense and no talent defensively. And all the injuries compounded those shortcomings even more, and we've wasted two years of our franchise QB in his prime.

I'm glad we have Julio, but I'm more excited that we're getting back to what made us successful prior to that trade....emphasis on shoring up and rebuilding our D and having more balance offensive attack,

I'm with you on most of it but the fact that we were an aging roster is supportive of making that sort of trade rather than not. An aging roster means your window is about to close....either you try to dive through it or you end up in a situation like Pittsburgh/San Diego where you're trying to push toward the top of the league with "meh" draft assets. And we've seen that happen with pretty much every team that isn't the Patriots or, to a lesser extent, the Ravens.

I'm highly skeptical of blaming things on culture or "balance" or anything like that simply because that sort of analysis is ALWAYS retrospective. No one ever complains about the lack of balance in New England despite that fact that New England has run offenses with similar splits. The reality of "balance" is that unless you're winning the game, it's incredibly difficult to achieve optimal balance.

I do like that we've entered the "third build" of the team under the current regime and we are clearly making an effort to get younger across the board. But I can't fault the FO for trying to cash in the chips that they had in 2011.

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Most of those are bust draft and bust "high profile" free agent picks. Those poor decisions are more a GM issue than a coaching issue.

And we could have gotten a more than competent WR (Torrey Smith/ Randall Cobb/Alshon Jeffrey) with one of those picks we traded...if we were a competent in those two year's draft.

I don't buy this at all. But specifically, the "competent WR" argument is full of assumptions that don't necessarily hold up to scrutiny. Torrey Smith is a highly one-dimensional WR that does pretty much one thing. Randall Cobb is a slot guy who isn't going to give you a ton of threat outside. Alshon is a slow-developing inconsistent player with ability that didn't turn into a viable target until well after our window had closed. He was awful in 2012.

And that's ignoring the possibility of our roulette wheel landing on the following players: Baldwin, Little, Young, Pettis, Hankerson, Brown, Jernigan, Wright, Jenkins, Quick, Hill, Broyles, Randle, Graham, etc.

Look at this link: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/draft-finder.cgi?request=1&year_min=1936&year_max=2015&type=&round_min=1&round_max=30&slot_min=1&slot_max=500&league_id=&team_id=&pos=WR&college_id=all&conference=any&show=all

Look at the WRs drafted in 2011 and 2012......60 different WRs drafted. How many have proven capable of being high-quality outside WRs? Three? AJ, Julio and Jeffery?

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In comparison offense we had:

-Ryan (1st)

-Douglas (3rd)

-baker (1st)

-Gonzales (traded for a 2nd)

-Hawley

-Rodgers

-Julio

-turner (F.A)

It's very strange that we had a defensive coach, yet couldn't bring in any talent whatsoever on defense, in comparison we had a top 10 offense the entire time, don't you think?

It IS strange, which is why I've never bought into the narrative that Smith had much say-so in FA and drafting of players. But to his credit, he made it work for most of his time here, even though as a defensive minded coach he had a team rich in offense and poor in defense talentwise during most of his time here as HC.. And that's also why I never bought into the narrative that Smith was not a good coach, as a good coach adjusts to his players he's been dealt, and at least early on, Smitty did that.. This team's rise and fall were both a collaborative effort.

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I don't buy this at all. But specifically, the "competent WR" argument is full of assumptions that don't necessarily hold up to scrutiny. Torrey Smith is a highly one-dimensional WR that does pretty much one thing. Randall Cobb is a slot guy who isn't going to give you a ton of threat outside. Alshon is a slow-developing inconsistent player with ability that didn't turn into a viable target until well after our window had closed. He was awful in 2012.

And that's ignoring the possibility of our roulette wheel landing on the following players: Baldwin, Little, Young, Pettis, Hankerson, Brown, Jernigan, Wright, Jenkins, Quick, Hill, Broyles, Randle, Graham, etc.

Look at this link: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/play-index/draft-finder.cgi?request=1&year_min=1936&year_max=2015&type=&round_min=1&round_max=30&slot_min=1&slot_max=500&league_id=&team_id=&pos=WR&college_id=all&conference=any&show=all

Look at the WRs drafted in 2011 and 2012......60 different WRs drafted. How many have proven capable of being high-quality outside WRs? Three? AJ, Julio and Jeffery?

I said competent, not "high quality" as you and PFF define that. I also understand why you don't buy into that, and I do respect that point of view. But a one-dimensional T Smith (or Jeffrey or Cobb) + Roddy + TG for a couple of seasons and team would have still been a serious contending team for NFCC + a couple of decent 1st round picks and this is a better team today as well.

Again, I am assuming we hit on at least 3 of those 5 draft picks with this which is far from a sure thing. Like you alluded, we could have just as easily picked an AJ Jenkins or Greg Little as any of the guys I mentioned. And as I said before, I understand why TD did the trade and I'm over it and ready to move on, I just find it interesting to explore the 'what ifs'.

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I'm with you on most of it but the fact that we were an aging roster is supportive of making that sort of trade rather than not. An aging roster means your window is about to close....either you try to dive through it or you end up in a situation like Pittsburgh/San Diego where you're trying to push toward the top of the league with "meh" draft assets. And we've seen that happen with pretty much every team that isn't the Patriots or, to a lesser extent, the Ravens.

I'm highly skeptical of blaming things on culture or "balance" or anything like that simply because that sort of analysis is ALWAYS retrospective. No one ever complains about the lack of balance in New England despite that fact that New England has run offenses with similar splits. The reality of "balance" is that unless you're winning the game, it's incredibly difficult to achieve optimal balance.

I do like that we've entered the "third build" of the team under the current regime and we are clearly making an effort to get younger across the board. But I can't fault the FO for trying to cash in the chips that they had in 2011.

This is true, and I'm sure it's what TD thought as well. It was a ballsy high risk-reward move. I wouldn't have done it and said so at the time, but I'm just some arm-chair amateur with the benefit of hind-site.

:)

By 'culture' change I mean team changed from it's HC personality. Like I said, he's not a "greatest show on turf" kind of coach, so it seemed almost like this wasn't his team anymore after Julio trade.

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In comparison offense we had:

-Ryan (1st)

-Douglas (3rd)

-baker (1st)

-Gonzales (traded for a 2nd)

-Hawley

-Rodgers

-Julio

-turner (F.A)

It's very strange that we had a defensive coach, yet couldn't bring in any talent whatsoever on defense, in comparison we had a top 10 offense the entire time, don't you think?

Most of that is TD and his explosive directive.

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The only explosive player on that list is Julio.

Most?

Just because they didn't pan out to be explosive doesn't mean that wasn't TD's intent. That is why the offense consistently got attention and the defense was allowed to fall off.

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It IS strange, which is why I've never bought into the narrative that Smith had much say-so in FA and drafting of players. But to his credit, he made it work for most of his time here, even though as a defensive minded coach he had a team rich in offense and poor in defense talentwise during most of his time here as HC.. And that's also why I never bought into the narrative that Smith was not a good coach, as a good coach adjusts to his players he's been dealt, and at least early on, Smitty did that.. This team's rise and fall were both a collaborative effort.

You mean he must've had alot of say so,

If TD can bring in talent on offense (the area where smitty has the least say), then it should tell you something that we always brought in scrubs on defense(the area where smitty would have a say). Smitty also had brooking, abraham, coleman, and grimes to work with. He just didn't have a winning strategy on defense. We always came out flat and deflated in big games.

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Most of that is TD and his explosive directive.

Right and we brought in a great slot wr in douglas, a hof in TG, ring of honor RB in turner, the best franchise qb ever in mr2, and a good change of pace in quizz, possibly the best wr ever, and a decent center in hawley.

On defense we brought in moore out of 2x as many picks. Maybe just maybe we had a suckazz coach.

Doubt that TD would pick defensive players in a vacuum.

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You mean he must've had alot of say so,

If TD can bring in talent on offense (the area where smitty has the least say), then it should tell you something that we always brought in scrubs on defense(the area where smitty would have a say). Smitty also had brooking, abraham, coleman, and grimes to work with. He just didn't have a winning strategy on defense. We always came out flat and deflated in big games.

No, that does not tell me that at all. A defensive minded coach who (according to people such as yourself) supposedly had a strong say so is going to pound the table to draft defensive guys all day long, especially on a team that was so obviously lacking such as pass rush.

I don't give Smith the credit for the good drafting either of Lofton/Peters/Moore/Biermann/Trufants or (hopefully) Hageman hits, nor do you guys who carry the blame Smitty for everything narrative. Nor should he get the blame for the many drafting misses either. You can't have it both ways.

Smith was never ever mistakenly considered (before or after he was hired) as some great evaluator of drafting talent, he left that to scouts and GM, that's just a concocted story you guys throw out there. He had a voice of course, but just like most coaches, they don't have the time to scout college players, that's what the scouts are for. And the GM hires the scouts.

And when we had Abraham/Grimes/Coleman/Lofton et al, Falcons were a decent defense. After they were allowed to leave with no suitable replacements + Julio trade, it all went downhill.

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Right and we brought in a great slot wr in douglas, a hof in TG, ring of honor RB in turner, the best franchise qb ever in mr2, and a good change of pace in quizz, possibly the best wr ever, and a decent center in hawley.

On defense we brought in moore out of 2x as many picks. Maybe just maybe we had a suckazz coach.

Doubt that TD would pick defensive players in a vacuum.

Yes, because all those suck azz picks are all flourishing right now on some other team with better coaching, right?

Whatever happened to those incredible talents that just lacked good coaching such as L Sidbury, A Dent, DeCoud, P Jerry, R Edwards, J Anderson, C Owens, et al after they left Falcons? Betcha $1 Mass goes down similar road.

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No, that does not tell me that at all. A defensive minded coach who (according to people such as yourself) supposedly had a strong say so is going to pound the table to draft defensive guys all day long, especially on a team that was so obviously lacking such as pass rush.

I don't give Smith the credit for the good drafting either of Lofton/Peters/Moore/Biermann/Trufants or (hopefully) Hageman hits, nor do you guys who carry the blame Smitty for everything narrative. Nor should he get the blame for the many drafting misses either. You can't have it both ways.

Smith was never ever mistakenly considered (before or after he was hired) as some great evaluator of drafting talent, he left that to scouts and GM, that's just a concocted story you guys throw out there. He had a voice of course, but just like most coaches, they don't have the time to scout college players, that's what the scouts are for. And the GM hires the scouts.

And when we had Abraham/Grimes/Coleman/Lofton et al, Falcons were a decent defense. After they were allowed to leave with no suitable replacements + Julio trade, it all went downhill.

We were decent against the worst offenses in the league, we flat fell on our faces when we played good teams.

So your saying that was Smittiot's stunt double at the combines helping scout in the stands with TD? How about holding smitty accountable for not placing a premium on pass rushers is that not feasible either?

I figure if MS is the defensive guru he was touted, he would atleast have some input on what the defense would look like.

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Yes, because all those suck azz picks are all flourishing right now on some other team with better coaching, right?

Whatever happened to those incredible talents that just lacked good coaching such as L Sidbury, A Dent, DeCoud, P Jerry, R Edwards, J Anderson, C Owens, et al after they left Falcons? Betcha $1 Mass goes down similar road.

I bet there will be a huge difference between the players we acquired under quinn vs under smith.

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I'm wondering what the opinion is on the following group of players (as a group, not individually):

Sam Baker

Peria Jerry

Peter Konz

Lawrence Sidbury

Levine Toilolo

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What's the quote from? Not the article you posted...

"Our interview schedule will be skewed that way," Smith said. "We got an opportunity to have extensive interviews with 110 guys already. We feel like we have a big advantage than the other 30 teams. I think us in Jacksonville get an advantage."

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"Our interview schedule will be skewed that way," Smith said. "We got an opportunity to have extensive interviews with 110 guys already. We feel like we have a big advantage than the other 30 teams. I think us in Jacksonville get an advantage."

"SAYS HE'S DIRECTLY INVOLVED....BUT DID NOT HELP SCOUT DEFENSIVE PLAYERS"

How are these the same?

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