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DirtyBird8711

Scott Pioli Named Most Influential Falcon, But Just How Influential Is He?

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Won't happen. The night he was drafted I posted that he will be a beast but he will never be worth five picks. That opinion will never change. Had we used those five picks on 3-5 core players we probably win a Bowl in 2012. Maybe even in 2011.

I dunno about that, he almost personally won us a SB by himself in 2012 playoff game against 49ers. But we wouldn't have gone 10-22 the last two years, I'm pretty sure about that.

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I dunno about that, he almost personally won us a SB by himself in 2012 playoff game against 49ers. But we wouldn't have gone 10-22 the last two years, I'm pretty sure about that.

Julio couldn't stop Vernon Davis or Frank Gore in that game.

He also pretty much got shut down in the second half.

Didn't help when Turner got hurt early in the third and we had to go to Quizz.

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Julio couldn't stop Vernon Davis or Frank Gore in that game.

He also pretty much got shut down in the second half.

Didn't help when Turner got hurt early in the third and we had to go to Quizz.

That game still makes me sick to my stomach....it was our best chance ever to win it all......

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Well, the facts are we traded a boatload of picks for a dynamic WR which cost us in that we could not rebuild our D or replace aging players nor develop any depth to cover ourselves sufficiently when those injuries inevitably happened..... That combined with some pretty mediocre 4 years of overall strategic drafting 2009-2012 and there you have it....

Except these aren't the facts.....at the very least they aren't the entirety of the RELEVANT facts. It's infinitely more complex than just "we used 5 picks on a WR!"

The trade absolutely played a role in our struggles. But so did a bunch of other things. And the "inevitability" of injury doesnt mean your team is going to be a bottom 5 team in Adjusted Games Lost for two years running. Not all injuries are equal.

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Excellent post. Madden Boys cannot understand this to save their lives. They just want an explosive downfield target. Even at the cost of a 10-22 record.

Calls others Madden Boys but consistently equates a player's ability to "production"

Keep on, keepin' on Retrospect.

ukfalc and Embrace the suck like this

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Hageman was playing like sht son. When you are a coach trying to win games you play the players you think can help you win games. Every rookie aint ready to start day one.

Any questions Larry?

The point obviously flew over the top of that old-*** dome you've got.

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Except these aren't the facts.....at the very least they aren't the entirety of the RELEVANT facts. It's infinitely more complex than just "we used 5 picks on a WR!"

The trade absolutely played a role in our struggles. But so did a bunch of other things. And the "inevitability" of injury doesnt mean your team is going to be a bottom 5 team in Adjusted Games Lost for two years running. Not all injuries are equal.

That's a good point. I think though we got kinda complacent on the injury thing, as we were overly fortunate on injuries 2008-2012 and law of averages came back to bite us in 2013-14.

For the record, I think Julio is phenomenal and am a big fan, just feel we gave up way too much and could have addressed that need and others by thinking more strategic long-term. I think Pioli more than anything has brought us back to that basic truth we don't have to sacrifice picks and trade up for an infatuation but instead stay put and let draft come to us.

But then again, we came within 10 yards from a SB in a game Julio was absolutely dominant in, so I understand where TD was coming from also, as our window (Turner/Abe/Gonzo et al ) was closing fast......

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Round 2, Pick No. 37: Ra'shede Hageman, DE/DT, Minnesota

Instead of finding a pass rusher in the second round, the Falcons took a project defensive lineman, after seemingly addressing the position in free agency. The selection was considered decent value at the time, although it appeared that the Falcons may have panicked somewhat when their top two targets (Dee Ford, Demarcus Lawrence) came off the board before their turn. Hageman showed some maturity issues in camp, and was not very productive when given snaps on the field early on in the season. With his playing time increasing toward the end of the season, Hageman flashed some potential, and ended up with 16 tackles and a sack in 16 games played, with no starts. There are tools to work with here, but man could Atlanta have used an edge rusher like Kony Ealy with this pick. Grade: C+

Just one guy's opinion, but the general consensus was Hageman was not ready to play in NFL, and needed to be brought along slowly. Which is what we did.

This isn't a referendum on Hageman....it's about the coaching staff withholding snaps from young players. It wasn't just Hageman. It was Mass. And Maponga. It was Hawley for years.

You'll notice that Hageman's level of play began to improve dramatically as the season went on. Why is that? Because by and large, players need to get real life reps to show improvement. If I'm the DC of a ****** defense, I'm not withholding snaps from my talented young players so that I can keep my underperforming veterans in the game. But Smitty still kept trotting out that 4 man line of Kroy, Soliai, Jackson and Babs in passing downs....while Hageman, Maponga and Mass sat their ***** on the bench and teams kept clicking off 3rd and longs.

And for what? So Kroy could get stomped in the run game and handled in the pass rush? So Babs could play out of position even though he's our best interior pass rusher?

We were a terribly coached team these last two years. The coaches weren't working with the 85 Bears by any means, but I'm not sure it would have mattered even if they were. There are consistent issues with the snap distribution and the concepts we employed defensively. Which is why we lost that Lions game with Ish somehow on an island against Golden Tate. Boom. Conversion.

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This isn't a referendum on Hageman....it's about the coaching staff withholding snaps from young players. It wasn't just Hageman. It was Mass. And Maponga. It was Hawley for years.

You'll notice that Hageman's level of play began to improve dramatically as the season went on. Why is that? Because by and large, players need to get real life reps to show improvement. If I'm the DC of a ****** defense, I'm not withholding snaps from my talented young players so that I can keep my underperforming veterans in the game. But Smitty still kept trotting out that 4 man line of Kroy, Soliai, Jackson and Babs in passing downs....while Hageman, Maponga and Mass sat their ***** on the bench and teams kept clicking off 3rd and longs.

And for what? So Kroy could get stomped in the run game and handled in the pass rush? So Babs could play out of position even though he's our best interior pass rusher?

We were a terribly coached team these last two years. The coaches weren't working with the 85 Bears by any means, but I'm not sure it would have mattered even if they were. There are consistent issues with the snap distribution and the concepts we employed defensively. Which is why we lost that Lions game with Ish somehow on an island against Golden Tate. Boom. Conversion.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one, Larry. I'm no expert on football player mental physic, but my study of Hageman is he could have been ruined if thrown to the wolves too soon and dominated early on. We were also a bonafied playoff contending team, you don't throw projects out there when trying to win football games. Bottom line, in Hageman's case specifically, I think coaches handled him the way he needed to be.

Since Quinn let Mass walk, I think there may have been more going on with him than just the fact he was young and unproven. Plus I never saw what the big deal was with him anyway, I saw a guy who got pushed around alot more than make plays. Yes, I know the FU scheme played into that, but I never saw what everyone was so worked up about him in the first place.....We'll see if he plays anymore in Tenn than he did here, or goes down the same path as Sidbury did.....

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Hageman was playing like sht son. When you are a coach trying to win games you play the players you think can help you win games. Every rookie aint ready to start day one.

Hi

If by **** you mean he out produced the starter in 75% less snaps in blk fgs, sacks, and hurries you must be right. He must've played like sh!t ffs1970.

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That's a good point. I think though we got kinda complacent on the injury thing, as we were overly fortunate on injuries 2008-2012 and law of averages came back to bite us in 2013-14.

For the record, I think Julio is phenomenal and am a big fan, just feel we gave up way too much and could have addressed that need and others by thinking more strategic long-term. I think Pioli more than anything has brought us back to that basic truth we don't have to sacrifice picks and trade up for an infatuation but instead stay put and let draft come to us.

But then again, we came within 10 yards from a SB in a game Julio was absolutely dominant in, so I understand where TD was coming from also, as our window (Turner/Abe/Gonzo et al ) was closing fast......

Ultimately, that's where I'm fine with the disagreement. I probably would have gone about it a different way too. But TD purchased an elite talent with a ton of certainty built in.

It was a window move. And it almost worked. I'm not going to fault a guy for that. Especially when I look at the individuals that would have been on our radar had we stayed where we were. Jon Baldwin. Greg Little. Titus Young. ****, our best case was Torrey Smith....a one trick pony that doesnt offer anywhere near the same strengths as Julio.

I've never had a problem with people criticizing the Julio move. I DO have a problem with people who predicate their criticism on illogical hindsight bias. That sort of criticism is no more valid than bitching at someone for playing the "wrong numbers" the day after a Powerball draw. It's a fallacy and it's intellectually dishonest.

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Round 2, Pick No. 37: Ra'shede Hageman, DE/DT, Minnesota

Instead of finding a pass rusher in the second round, the Falcons took a project defensive lineman, after seemingly addressing the position in free agency. The selection was considered decent value at the time, although it appeared that the Falcons may have panicked somewhat when their top two targets (Dee Ford, Demarcus Lawrence) came off the board before their turn. Hageman showed some maturity issues in camp, and was not very productive when given snaps on the field early on in the season. With his playing time increasing toward the end of the season, Hageman flashed some potential, and ended up with 16 tackles and a sack in 16 games played, with no starts. There are tools to work with here, but man could Atlanta have used an edge rusher like Kony Ealy with this pick. Grade: C+

Just one guy's opinion, but the general consensus was Hageman was not ready to play in NFL, and needed to be brought along slowly. Which is what we did.

If we went by scouting reports worrilow would never start over dent, grimes wouldn't be an nfl player, and Sjax would still be on the roster starting over freeman.

Scouting reports don't determine who should play, the facts are hageman was a much better player than tyson jokeson and freeman showed more promise than Steven jackson.

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That game still makes me sick to my stomach....it was our best chance ever to win it all......

Me too bro. Many old time fans still think the 1980 loss to DAL hurts more, but nothing hurt like that 2012 NFCCG loss for me. A freakin bye, a last minute win, up 24-14, at home, crowd rockin, beatable Raven team up next, and we start slip pickin, whiff snappin and tripping over hash marks. I'm still sick.

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If we went by scouting reports worrilow would never start over dent, grimes wouldn't be an nfl player, and Sjax would still be on the roster starting over freeman.

Scouting reports don't determine who should play, the facts are hageman was a much better player than tyson jokeson and freeman showed more promise than Steven jackson.

I think in his case, there was sound reason in taking it slow and letting the game come to him. Plenty a player has been ruined by rushing them out there too soon.....

Since you brought it up....The fact that young undrafted free agent players such as Worrlow and Grimes got their chances to play under prior regime also discounts the narrative Smitty never played young players....

smile.png

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Lol @ got their chance, no they didnt. Worrilow played caused dent was hurt even though it was obvious to everyone he should've been the starter. Grimes didn't get his chance until we were very sure Owens and Houston weren't any good.

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Me too bro. Many old time fans still think the 1980 loss to DAL hurts more but nothing hurt like that 20122 NFCCG loss to me. A freakin bye, a last minute win, up 24-14, at home, crowd rockin, beatable Raven team up next, and we start slip pickin, whiff snappin and tripping over hash marks. I'm still sick.

All of those things TD's fault, right?

Face it, TD built a championship caliber team. They just didn't finish the job.

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Lol @ got their chance, no they didnt. Worrilow played caused dent was hurt even though it was obvious to everyone he should've been the starter. Grimes didn't get his chance until we were very sure Owens and Houston weren't any good.

LMAO Worrilow shouldn't start for any NFL team but that is a different thread.

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All of those things TD's fault, right?

Face it, TD built a championship caliber team. They just didn't finish the job.

Apparently you didn't see where Ozzie Newsome caused Rahim Moore to play a pass in the worst way possible.

A REAL GM CONTROLS ALL VARIABLES ALL THE TIME AND KNOWS EXACTLY WHO HE SHOULD HAVE DRAFTED THREE YEARS AGO

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If we went by scouting reports worrilow would never start over dent, grimes wouldn't be an nfl player, and Sjax would still be on the roster starting over freeman.

Makes you wonder if Smitty put all his stock in scouting reports. Lol

Embrace the suck likes this

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The trade absolutely played a role in our struggles. But so did a bunch of other things.

You ain't lyin Larry:

-Let Grimes, Dahl, Lofton, Svitek, Vance and Weems walk

-Cut Abe and Clabo

-Underestimated the readiness of our young Oline busts

-Replacing Turner with a 30 year old RB instead of a young stud like Lacy, Murray, Bell or Bernard

-Replaced Abe with Osi

-Signed RayRay Edwards as a bookend for Abe

-Didn't bring Mud Duck back when he said he wanted to come back

-Not being able to find a low round gem in seven years

-Overpaying players like Sackmaker, RobbinUs, RayRay, Blalock and Jenkins

-Reaching for several marginal players like Southward, Quizz and Puddin who were all projected to go one or two rounds later

-Drafting a slew of injury prone players like Julio, Sackmaker, Spoon, Ewing, MyJohnson, Peters, Jelly, WillyMo and more

-Trading three picks for an injury prone T-Rex then resigning him to a cap crippling deal

-Passing on Clay Matthews, Geno Atkins, Duane Brown, Cliff Avril, Carl Nicks and Dez Bryant for Jelly, Brawley, Sackmaker, Dougle, Beer and Featherspoon

-Traded five picks for Julio that we could have used on Justin Houston, DeMarco Murray, Kevin Zeitler, Julius Thomas and Brandon Boykin

That will get you to 10-22 in a hurry.

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You ain't lyin Larry:

-Let Grimes, Dahl, Lofton, Svitek, Vance and Weems walk

-Cut Abe and Clabo

-Underestimated the readiness of our young Oline busts

-Replacing Turner with a 30 year old RB instead of a young stud like Lacy, Murray, Bell or Bernard

-Replaced Abe with Osi

-Signed RayRay Edwards as a bookend for Abe

-Didn't bring Mud Duck back when he said he wanted to come back

-Not being able to find a low round gem in seven years

-Overpaying players like Sackmaker, RobbinUs, RayRay, Blalock and Jenkins

-Reaching for several marginal players like Southward, Quizz and Puddin who were all projected to go one or two rounds later

-Drafting a slew of injury prone players like Julio, Sackmaker, Spoon, Ewing, MyJohnson, Peters, Jelly, WillyMo and more

-Trading three picks for an injury prone T-Rex then resigning him to a cap crippling deal

-Passing on Clay Matthews, Geno Atkins, Duane Brown, Cliff Avril, Carl Nicks and Dez Bryant for Jelly, Brawley, Sackmaker, Dougle, Beer and Featherspoon

-Traded five picks for Julio that we could have used on Justin Houston, DeMarco Murray, Kevin Zeitler, Julius Thomas and Brandon Boykin

That will get you to 10-22 in a hurry.

didnt-read-lol-gif-13.gif

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Hi

If by **** you mean he out produced the starter in 75% less snaps in blk fgs, sacks, and hurries you must be right. He must've played like sh!t ffs1970.

TJax and Soliai were just signed six months earlier for $57M. Do you honestly think either was gonna get benched in favor of Hageman, a second round "project"? OK.

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If we went by scouting reports worrilow would never start over dent, grimes wouldn't be an nfl player, and Sjax would still be on the roster starting over freeman.

Scouting reports don't determine who should play, the facts are hageman was a much better player than tyson jokeson and freeman showed more promise than Steven jackson.

You talk like like Worrilow is some kind of as beater. He sucks monkey balls trying to cover NFL players and quite possibly might be the weakest link in our defense this year.

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I think in his case, there was sound reason in taking it slow and letting the game come to him. Plenty a player has been ruined by rushing them out there too soon.....

Since you brought it up....The fact that young undrafted free agent players such as Worrlow and Grimes got their chances to play under prior regime also discounts the narrative Smitty never played young players....

smile.png

Grimes started six games in freakin 2008. WTH you talkin bout? Worrilow is well, sorry.

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