Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

The Shotfather

White Cop Shoots Unarmed Black Guy In Back 8 Times, Plants Taser On Him. Just Another Day In America.

593 posts in this topic

Yet you completely leave out what I said the majority could do for their "part". You don't get to parse out the conversation to suit your needs. I flat out said that the legal system needed to be reformed, re-trained and re-organized to foster trust. In return, black communities would, in essence, police themselves, be mentors, etc. since gang members, etc aren't exactly going to listen to a 40 year old white dude. Not sure why you edited out the fact that I said the government would have to take the first steps and initiate action and just skip to this but that only looks agenda driven to me or only reading what you want to read...

I absolutely mentioned the part where you recommended things that won't happen, such as segregating police forces nationwide and decriminalizing all drugs, as if they were real world solutions that could be matched by a legion of Morgan Freemans and Bagger Vances stamping out gang violence among people of a similar hue. I just don't consider a rhetorical approach to justifying institutional discrimination to be better than a fanatical one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I absolutely mentioned the part where you recommended things that won't happen, such as segregating police forces nationwide and decriminalizing all drugs, as if they were real world solutions that could be matched by a legion of Morgan Freemans and Bagger Vances stamping out gang violence among people of a similar hue. I just don't consider a rhetorical approach to justifying institutional discrimination to be better than a fanatical one.

So nevermind re-training law enforcement and reforming it huh? Only focus on the parts that you can bend to fit your argument? How intellectually dishonest of you. Of course maybe we can all just snap our fingers and everyone will magically stop hating everyone and it'll be rainbows and unicorns for all. You guys need a serious dose of reality in addition to even out your idealism...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So nevermind re-training law enforcement and reforming it huh? Only focus on the parts that you can bend to fit your argument? How intellectually dishonest of you. Of course maybe we can all just snap our fingers and everyone will magically stop hating everyone and it'll be rainbows and unicorns for all. You guys need a serious dose of reality in addition to even out your idealism...

Bro do you really want to sit here and try to argue that while increased scrutiny of racial conflict and excess violence in law enforcement isn't feasible, it makes perfect sense to attempt to re-train and segregate police forces across the nation so that individuals don't have to interact with law enforcement of a separate race?

I don't want to belabor the obvious, but it has to be said again, your idea would never happen, suggesting it is consciously avoiding addressing a real-world problem with an applicable solution, and you're still trying to take the position that you're presenting the "realistic" side of the argument, as if not only could your idea be put into action, but that you have some way of knowing the short and long-term implications of enacting such drastic measures without the support of the general public, much less any sort of workable plan for forwarding the idea in actual legislation, creating a system of oversight, and then (dear God) attempting to apply the idea.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bro do you really want to sit here and try to argue that while increased scrutiny of racial conflict and excess violence in law enforcement isn't feasible, it makes perfect sense to attempt to re-train and segregate police forces across the nation so that individuals don't have to interact with law enforcement of a separate race?

I don't want to belabor the obvious, but it has to be said again, your idea would never happen, suggesting it is consciously avoiding addressing a real-world problem with an applicable solution, and you're still trying to take the position that you're presenting the "realistic" side of the argument, as if not only could your idea be put into action, but that you have some way of knowing the short and long-term implications of enacting such drastic measures without the support of the general public, much less any sort of workable plan for forwarding the idea in actual legislation, creating a system of oversight, and then (dear God) attempting to apply the idea.

And your idea of a solution is what? So far all I've heard is "people just need to change their attitudes" by some miraculous way. It's easy to take shots at ideas but to not respond with ideas of your own doesn't exactly present alternatives does it? I never claimed to have all the right answers. I simply named some things that "could" be done that I believe would help. The "segregation" (which really isn't a segregation at all) is temporary. If the problem is white cops killing blacks unjustly then doesn't it make sense to remove them from patrolling those affected communities until retraining and reshaping law enforcement takes place and relationships are repaired? I don't believe any of it is near as dramatic as you presented it but hey, feel free to contribute your suggestions that you believe are doable and would foster the changes needed. Maybe your ideas are better than mine, I just haven't read them yet...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't want to belabor the obvious, but it has to be said again, your idea would never happen, suggesting it is consciously avoiding addressing a real-world problem with an applicable solution, and you're still trying to take the position that you're presenting the "realistic" side of the argument, as if not only could your idea be put into action, but that you have some way of knowing the short and long-term implications of enacting such drastic measures without the support of the general public, much less any sort of workable plan for forwarding the idea in actual legislation, creating a system of oversight, and then (dear God) attempting to apply the idea.

Capologist summarized.

The onus of correcting a logical fallacy, and racial prejudice, should not be on the innocent victim of racial prejudice. Practical solutions involve a loud, open discussion about inequality, rooted in factual data, and followed by consequences for people engaging in racism. Segregating people due to racial prejudice is not only unrealistic, it's comically offensive. Sheltering racists only ensures that racism will continue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And your idea of a solution is what? So far all I've heard is "people just need to change their attitudes" by some miraculous way. It's easy to take shots at ideas but to not respond with ideas of your own doesn't exactly present alternatives does it? I never claimed to have all the right answers. I simply named some things that "could" be done that I believe would help. The "segregation" (which really isn't a segregation at all) is temporary. If the problem is white cops killing blacks unjustly then doesn't it make sense to remove them from patrolling those affected communities until retraining and reshaping law enforcement takes place and relationships are repaired? I don't believe any of it is near as dramatic as you presented it but hey, feel free to contribute your suggestions that you believe are doable and would foster the changes needed. Maybe your ideas are better than mine, I just haven't read them yet...

My "idea" is exactly what's happening at present, widening the dialogue on the nature of institutional discrimination, particularly in law enforcement and the judicial system, and reevaluating the tendency for the media and the public alike to either ignore discrimination or take up for the system in place in situations such as this one. I'm not proposing something more drastic both because there's no point to playing pretend with hypothetical legislation that would never get public approval or get past the courts, and because the expansion of dialogue is necessary for any real change. Your counter to that position has been that racism is simply endemic to the police, and the solution is a combination of short-term fixes to law enforcement that won't happen, and the Moran Freemans and Bagger Vances talking to black kids across the nation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My "idea" is exactly what's happening at present, widening the dialogue on the nature of institutional discrimination, particularly in law enforcement and the judicial system, and reevaluating the tendency for the media and the public alike to either ignore discrimination or take up for the system in place in situations such as this one. I'm not proposing something more drastic both because there's no point to playing pretend with hypothetical legislation that would never get public approval or get past the courts, and because the expansion of dialogue is necessary for any real change. Your counter to that position has been that racism is simply endemic to the police, and the solution is a combination of short-term fixes to law enforcement that won't happen, and the Moran Freemans and Bagger Vances talking to black kids across the nation.

Re-training and completely reforming law enforcement standards are not "short-term" but your suggestion is "talk about it" and do what we are currently doing. Yeah, that's gotten us a lot of progress hasn't it? People are beyond the point of just talking. Something actually has to happen to effect the change. It's not just going to happen of its own volition...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Re-training and completely reforming law enforcement standards are not "short-term" but your suggestion is "talk about it" and do what we are currently doing. Yeah, that's gotten us a lot of progress hasn't it? People are beyond the point of just talking. Something actually has to happen to effect the change. It's not just going to happen of its own volition...

You know why discussion produces slow change? Because people like you waste time with unrealistic, ridiculous fixes, while failing to call racism to task.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Re-training and completely reforming law enforcement standards are not "short-term" but your suggestion is "talk about it" and do what we are currently doing. Yeah, that's gotten us a lot of progress hasn't it? People are beyond the point of just talking. Something actually has to happen to effect the change. It's not just going to happen of its own volition...

Expanding dialogue to the point that we can deal with an issue as it is rather than rely on old ways of thinking ("we just need black people to talk to their own, that's what they're comfortable with") that have perpetuated the issue is the only way to deal with any social problem where the public and the institutions don't have a full enough awareness of what the problem is. Assuming that a solution has to be found simultaneous to understanding the full scope of the problem or else we need to retreat from acquired knowledge and rely on discrimination and ignorance to deal with it in the present is the sort of ***-backward thinking that keeps the War on Drugs and the War on Terror going strong as ever.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You know why discussion produces slow change? Because people like you waste time with unrealistic, ridiculous fixes, while failing to call racism to task.

IF you'd actually pay attention as much as you like taking shots at me you'd see that I suggested summits where people could talk about these issues BUT a bunch of talk isn't good enough. How is it unrealistic and ridiculous to call for law enforcement retraining and reform? We live in a virtual police state. How is it unrealistic and ridiculous to demand as a society that this not be the case? You can talk until you are blue in the face but do you really think a predominantly black community that has had issue after issue with the cops are going to just all of the sudden trust the white officer just because "he promised to do better"? Talk about unrealistic and ridiculous. That trust has to be EARNED. Only after that trust has been earned and all of these other things are in place do the predominantly black communities take action such as neighborhood watches, reporting crimes instead of "I didn't see anything" because they are scared out of their minds what the gang would do in retaliation. These ideas of just talking and punishment, that's what's gone on for decades and the problem isn't getting better, if anything it's gotten worse.

I'd love to hear pimpin, Andrews, lost and other black posters to comment on the idea of just talking to change things. Also, I've said multiple times now that I don't have all the answers but there is no reason for you to attack me repeatedly on a personal level. If that's your idea of "talking" then change will definitely not occur because honestly if someone ever said the things you've said to me to my face this conversation would have been over a long time ago...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

IF you'd actually pay attention as much as you like taking shots at me you'd see that I suggested summits where people could talk about these issues BUT a bunch of talk isn't good enough. How is it unrealistic and ridiculous to call for law enforcement retraining and reform? We live in a virtual police state. How is it unrealistic and ridiculous to demand as a society that this not be the case? You can talk until you are blue in the face but do you really think a predominantly black community that has had issue after issue with the cops are going to just all of the sudden trust the white officer just because "he promised to do better"? Talk about unrealistic and ridiculous. That trust has to be EARNED. Only after that trust has been earned and all of these other things are in place do the predominantly black communities take action such as neighborhood watches, reporting crimes instead of "I didn't see anything" because they are scared out of their minds what the gang would do in retaliation. These ideas of just talking and punishment, that's what's gone on for decades and the problem isn't getting better, if anything it's gotten worse.

I'd love to hear pimpin, Andrews, lost and other black posters to comment on the idea of just talking to change things. Also, I've said multiple times now that I don't have all the answers but there is no reason for you to attack me repeatedly on a personal level. If that's your idea of "talking" then change will definitely not occur because honestly if someone ever said the things you've said to me to my face this conversation would have been over a long time ago...

Summits where people can say things like 'if these Black people didn't break the law, they wouldn't be shot', like you've said? Do you think that's helpful? And how do you think 'retraining the police' is going to eradicate the kind of racism we saw in Ferguson?

The way the police can earn trust is to expose and punish racist sentiments, and racist behavior. Investigate cases where there appear to be statistical anomalies in how races are treated by police, rather then suggesting broad, do-nothing solutions like 'training', or providing circular arguments like 'Black people commit more crimes'. When minorities see the police being held to an actual standard, indicted and investigated, instead of being apologized for, then perhaps people will being to perceive the situation as equitable.

I enjoyed your childish threat. Grow up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Summits where people can say things like 'if these Black people didn't break the law, they wouldn't be shot', like you've said? Do you think that's helpful? And how do you think 'retraining the police' is going to eradicate the kind of racism we saw in Ferguson?

The way the police can earn trust is to expose and punish racist sentiments, and racist behavior. Investigate cases where there appear to be statistical anomalies in how races are treated by police, rather then suggesting broad, do-nothing solutions like 'training', or providing circular arguments like 'Black people commit more crimes'. When minorities see the police being held to an actual standard, indicted and investigated, instead of being apologized for, then perhaps people will being to perceive the situation as equitable.

I enjoyed your childish threat. Grow up.

There was no "threat". I simply said that a live in person conversation would have ended a long time ago. blink.png In other words, I'd have walked away from your nonsense and petty attacks a long time ago (although I would want to deck someone who has spoken to me the way you have, I'm proud enough to say I'm grown enough to simply shake my head and walk away).

As for the summits, you put the quote in there, not me. I said talk about the issues (which is what you and Serge have said).

They already do the things you are talking about and the progress isn't good enough. I love how you just brush off retraining and reforming though. As for the circular arguments, I never made that statement so I'm not sure why you bothered to even post it.

The fact that you think police can be held to any other standard than what exists without retraining and reformation is beyond "ridiculous" as you put it. Things don't change just because it's the right thing to do. Something has to cause the change. You've provided nothing that ignites the change. You just think that people should conduct themselves differently magically. Yet that is somehow real world? 'Fraid not...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So *amn depressing

Being pulled over is #1 worst feeling I have now.

Free BO

In the mean time lets keep the discussion going:

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/apr/22/acquittal-of-chicago-police-officer-in-shooting-death-of-unarmed-woman-prompts-protest-anger-0

Backs turned and still fired on. Wonder how this one is portrayed? It is odd how the most egregious police shootings are often not talked about as much.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There was no "threat". I simply said that a live in person conversation would have ended a long time ago. blink.png In other words, I'd have walked away from your nonsense and petty attacks a long time ago (although I would want to deck someone who has spoken to me the way you have, I'm proud enough to say I'm grown enough to simply shake my head and walk away).

As for the summits, you put the quote in there, not me. I said talk about the issues (which is what you and Serge have said).

They already do the things you are talking about and the progress isn't good enough. I love how you just brush off retraining and reforming though. As for the circular arguments, I never made that statement so I'm not sure why you bothered to even post it.

The fact that you think police can be held to any other standard than what exists without retraining and reformation is beyond "ridiculous" as you put it. Things don't change just because it's the right thing to do. Something has to cause the change. You've provided nothing that ignites the change. You just think that people should conduct themselves differently magically. Yet that is somehow real world? 'Fraid not...

They're not investigating, and they're not indicting in many cases, so there have been a lot more suggestions other than to magically retrain people to not be racists. We need to get rid of the system where people who work closely with the police are the people who seek indictment. They're also not investigating departments based on statistical anomalies. As it stands, we're asking people to indict the people who they work with every day, which isn't realistic. Simply put, they're not doing the things I'm talking about.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They're not investigating, and they're not indicting in many cases, so there have been a lot more suggestions other than to magically retrain people to not be racists. We need to get rid of the system where people who work closely with the police are the people who seek indictment. They're also not investigating departments based on statistical anomalies. As it stands, we're asking people to indict the people who they work with every day, which isn't realistic. Simply put, they're not doing the things I'm talking about.

And that's part of reforming law enforcement. I agree that the system is screwed up and needs changing. They are investigating but the problem is that "they" are investigating instead of an independent body which goes hand in hand with indicting people they work with every day. The kind of training I'm thinking of isn't to "not be racists" but changing arrest tactics so the lines aren't so blurred on what's acceptable use of force and what's not. It seems to me (as an outsider) that there's no clear definition of when it's appropriate to fire (fearing for one's life is way too subjective). I realize that when it's real life there's not time to consult a rule book and figure out what the correct action should be but I do believe the guidelines could be written clearly and officers trained via scenarios to put it in practice...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites