4-2-5 Defense - Is This Reason The Falcons Cannot Stop The Run?

[g-dawg 43,244]

I watch the game from a fan's perspective moreso than some of you that are more technical.

Some of you who re-watch and breakdown every play - tell me this. Are we running a 4-2-5 on obvious running downs? That would mean we are "shorting the box" by one big linebacker at the expense of a nickel back or 3rd safety.

Seems like this would be an obvious explanation for how poor our run defense is. I know it cannot be that simple and Nolan/Smith cannot be that stupid - but just wanted some of your opinions on this who watch a little more intently.

[Dominique is Manufique 638]

i see babs playing DE a lot. while he is a good athlete he needs to be at DT. it's like horford playing 5. he's good, but not his natural position. that seems to me to be the biggest problem - guys playing out of position. maybe it's only babs, but it seems to me that way...too much out thinking the room.

[MSalmon 11,150]

I watch the game from a fan's perspective moreso than some of you that are more technical.

Some of you who re-watch and breakdown every play - tell me this. Are we running a 4-2-5 on obvious running downs? That would mean we are "shorting the box" by one big linebacker at the expense of a nickel back or 3rd safety.

Seems like this would be an obvious explanation for how poor our run defense is. I know it cannot be that simple and Nolan/Smith cannot be that stupid - but just wanted some of your opinions on this who watch a little more intently.

Lol thanks for asking this. I'm wondering the same thing. Im not as technical as say GeorgiaFan, Vel or KOG...from my non-technical eye it seems like what you said were shorting a bigger backer in favor of extra cb and we don't really have the physical cbs or slammer safety like a browner to compensate

[feelnu 20]

I've lost faith in Nolan and Smiths ability to coach. Leaving Alford alone on multiple plays one on one with Marshall was atrocious. Thank goodness Chicago coaches and Cutler are just as inept or else they could've scored 50+ points. ONE ON ONE with no safety help on most of those big plays we gave up. Alford is OK, he's not D.Sanders. If you gone leave these guys in these situations, why not BLITZ. I sit in Section 104 row 10, and I've seen us rush 4 and drop into gaping holed zone that Nolan calls. We should be sending 6 every play. No pressure on the QB while our DBs are left to cover zones until the WR finds an open space. We'll never win a game. We're losing anyway, f'k it and send the whole front seven. That 2LB defense is not working. If I don't see a change soon, I'll be losing $$$ and either not going to the games or just giving the tickets to my mom.

[LADBABY 294]

g-dawg all you have to do is look at our defense and see that it is

imbalanced and without enough linebackers to cover the width

of the field. Then you just attack the obvious weakness until you

see that the linebackers are cheating that way and then go where

they are supposed to be. Repeat. 2 linebackers don't have a chance. It is

the most technically flawed looking and functioning defensive alignment

I have ever seen.

[falcon057 1,436]

NOLANed!!!!

[since68andcounting 3,645]

I watch the game from a fan's perspective moreso than some of you that are more technical.

Some of you who re-watch and breakdown every play - tell me this. Are we running a 4-2-5 on obvious running downs? That would mean we are "shorting the box" by one big linebacker at the expense of a nickel back or 3rd safety.

Seems like this would be an obvious explanation for how poor our run defense is. I know it cannot be that simple and Nolan/Smith cannot be that stupid - but just wanted some of your opinions on this who watch a little more intently.

I watched replay through the Bears final TD. BOTH of their final TDs were the exact same play. One right, one left. The second time we were in DIME with Lowery essentially acting as a nickel LB. Cutler saw the formation and checked to that play.

The play is a strong side trap. The center blocks down on the weak side DT. This is an easy angle so it' not a tough block. The weak side OT blocks our far side DE. But the play hits so fast it doesn't take much at all there. The weak side OG pulls to the strong side and makes the key trap block.

BOTH the DT and DE on the play side go initially unblocked. The DT is then trapped by the pulling offside guard. The near side DE is left completely unblocked for the entire play! But the play is a quick hitter and effectively he's screened out of making the tackle by his own teammate (DT) who is being trapped. By the time he sees what is happening Hester is past him through the hole. So effectively this design allows them the ability to "block" 6 defenders with 5 men.

This leaves two big blockers (play side OG and OT) free to go after our 2 LBs. The second time they ran it we had one less player in the box so that left their TE free to go downfield as well. So essentially they had a TE, an OT, and and OG downfield with a head of steam blocking Lowery and Worrilow. It was a massacre.

The first time they ran it, Hageman was trapped and Mass screened. The second time Goodman was trapped and Osi screened. They got 8-10 yards each time. I have to admit this was an incredibly well designed play against a nickel front. And the Bears executed it like a machine. I'm not sure how you stop it unless one of the LBs dodges a block. Maybe somebody else has an idea.

Edited October 13, 2014 by since68andcounting

[A-TowN.- 5,455]

I would only run the 4-2-5 on 3rd down or long distance plays (2nd and 11). Nolan is not doing a good job here.

[sdogg 9,792]

Everyone knows that, except Smith and Nolan. 70% of our issues are due to poor coaching.

[Osiruz 10,079]

We run nickel like % 50 of the time and its a big reason we get ran on. Josh wilson being in for mcclain has made a difference but not by much. The other sets were in 3-4 defense, imo tyson and babineaux don't seem to fit us. Neither has any value as a pass rusher as a 3-4 de.

[obmann 109]

Why is every Running Back put good numbers, when your QB is Peyton manning?

Because the defense is almost playing every time Nickel D. So every RB has a good chance for running.

And the falcons play nickel against a rookie QB Bridgewater and are wondering, why the RBs are running over them. Of course the front 7 is weak, but now it is a front 6 and a very weak.

[since68andcounting 3,645]

It looked to me like we were in nickel on 75% of snaps. The others we're slit between a 3-4 that looks more like a 5-2 and dime (4-1-6).

It ain't working.

[since68andcounting 3,645]

Here ya go. This is the play they killed us on. It blocks 7 men with 6 players.

The second time they ran it was to the left side and we had replaced the strong side backer with a safety. And there was no other safety in the box, giving even more favorable numbers to the Bears. So they were then blocking 6 (actually 5 counting the screened DE) with 6, allowing a double team on our LB/safety.

Edited October 13, 2014 by since68andcounting

[vel 32,246]

You hit the nail on the head. Unless they are considering Kroy a LB, then they are running a lot of 3-3-5. Either way, we are trying to defend the run with a lot of 6 man front looks.

[ukfalc 3,721]

To make it even worse, we are trying to make up for the lack of numbers in the box by running it with stouter space eating DL, forfeiting our pass rush In the process. So we can't stop the run becuase we are a man light, our 2 LB's are asked to do way too much in coverage and we can't get to the QB either.

All of this to get one more DB on the field, which is no help bacuse no DB on the planet can cover for the age that it take to get anywhere near the QB.

[vel 32,246]

Here ya go. This is the play they killed us on. It blocks 7 men with 6 players.

The second time they ran it was to the left side and we had replaced the strong side backer with a safety. And there was no other safety in the box, giving even more favorable numbers to the Bears. So they were then blocking 6 (actually 5 counting the screened DE) with 6, allowing a double team on our LB/safety.

68 thanks for this. Perfect for the others to see. It's not a trick play. Pretty typical run play. We ran this in high school. It's impossible to stop when you are in a dime look like we were when Worrilow was taking on two OL.

We just don't put ourselves in favorable positions and then expect players to become supermen to make plays.

[vel 32,246]

To make it even worse, we are trying to make up for the lack of numbers in the box by running it with stouter space eating DL, forfeiting our pass rush In the process. So we can't stop the run becuase we are a man light, our 2 LB's are asked to do way too much in coverage and we can't get to the QB either.

All of this to get one more DB on the field, which is no help bacuse no DB on the planet can cover for the age that it take to get anywhere near the QB.

For the life of me I just don't get it.

We rushed 3 DL on Sunday on a third and long: Babs, Peters and Jackson. Mass was dropped into coverage, even though he had been getting pressure. It doesn't matter if we had Lawrence Taylor on the team, they'd drop him into coverage hoping a 8 man coverage scheme would produce more than putting pressure on the QB.

[g-dawg 43,244]

so basically - we are giving up on defending the run before the play even starts - that is just great!

[vel 32,246]

so basically - we are giving up on defending the run before the play even starts - that is just great!

Basically. Just watch our alignments and then watch the QB when they audible to a run.

[MSalmon 11,150]

I watched replay through the Bears final TD. BOTH of their final TDs were the exact same play. One right, one left. The second time we were in DIME with Lowery essentially acting as a nickel LB. Cutler saw the formation and checked to that play.

The play is a strong side trap. The center blocks down on the weak side DT. This is an easy angle so it' not a tough block. The weak side OT blocks our far side DE. But the play hits so fast it doesn't take much at all there. The weak side OG pulls to the strong side and makes the key trap block.

BOTH the DT and DE on the play side go initially unblocked. The DT is then trapped by the pulling offside guard. The near side DE is left completely unblocked for the entire play! But the play is a quick hitter and effectively he's screened out of making the tackle by his own teammate (DT) who is being trapped. By the time he sees what is happening Hester is past him through the hole. So effectively this design allows them the ability to "block" 6 defenders with 5 men.

This leaves two big blockers (play side OG and OT) free to go after our 2 LBs. The second time they ran it we had one less player in the box so that left their TE free to go downfield as well. So essentially they had a TE, an OT, and and OG downfield with a head of steam blocking Lowery and Worrilow. It was a massacre.

The first time they ran it, Hageman was trapped and Mass screened. The second time Goodman was trapped and Osi screened. They got 8-10 yards each time. I have to admit this was an incredibly well designed play against a nickel front. And the Bears executed it like a machine. I'm not sure how you stop it unless one of the LBs dodges a block. Maybe somebody else has an idea.

Scrap this formation and go either 4 or 4 LBs on field? Play man coverage or zone if they must with a safety deep?

[since68andcounting 3,645]

I think the only *possible* solution is a straight 4-3 moving Biermann to one of the LB spots. He's lost a step in pass rush and can no longer contain the edge well. Mass is a much better option at DE. Either that or run Shembo - Worrilow - Bartu as the LBs.

Osi wants snaps, Jackson is doing nothing. Here's my thoughts

Osi/Goodman RDE

Soleil/Travain. NT

Peters/Babs UT

Mass/Map LDE

Bartu WLB

Worrilow MLB

Shembo SLB

Use that as base. As for the secondary, I think Wilson is a true step up from McClain. Alford is getting abused. Arenas looked great in camp and hasn't seen a snap. Personally I'd be about a hair trigger from benching Alford for Arenas. But of course that could pi$$ off the draft day boy genius.

[blizzard_falcon 2,444]

I think the only *possible* solution is a straight 4-3 moving Biermann to one of the LB spots. He's lost a step in pass rush and can no longer contain the edge well. Mass is a much better option at DE. Either that or run Shembo - Worrilow - Bartu as the LBs.

Osi wants snaps, Jackson is doing nothing. Here's my thoughts

Osi/Goodman RDE

Soleil/Travain. NT

Peters/Babs UT

Mass/Map LDE

Bartu WLB

Worrilow MLB

Shembo SLB

Use that as base. As for the secondary, I think Wilson is a true step up from McClain. Alford is getting abused. Arenas looked great in camp and hasn't seen a snap. Personally I'd be about a hair trigger from benching Alford for Arenas. But of course that could pi$$ off the draft day boy genius.

This is what I'd do in an attempt to salvage something this season. Not sure where Kroy fits in, but he could play linebacker or defensive end and contribute here and there. I'd leave Robertson on the PS and make Tyson Jackson the alternate NT to Soliai.

Our LB depth would be stretched with only Stupar as a backup, but we could always trade for some depth or sign someone off the street. Starr or Cliff Matthews can be let go for a backup 4-3 LB.

[ya_boi_j 67,499]

I just figured it out. I know why the team is playing so bad. They aren't getting laid. Amukumara from the Giants has been playing great since he lost his virginity. Our guys need to get some and they will play better as well. Dammit why didn't I think of this before.

Lol yeah they suck

[blkbigdog35 11,304]

68 thanks for this. Perfect for the others to see. It's not a trick play. Pretty typical run play. We ran this in high school. It's impossible to stop when you are in a dime look like we were when Worrilow was taking on two OL.

We just don't put ourselves in favorable positions and then expect players to become supermen to make plays.

You would think Nolan and Company would see things like this when they are reviewing film and try to make corrections. It's just amazing!!

[blkbigdog35 11,304]

I just figured it out. I know why the team is playing so bad. They aren't getting laid. Amukumara from the Giants has been playing great since he lost his virginity. Our guys need to get some and they will play better as well. Dammit why didn't I think of this before.

Lol yeah they suck

LMAO, bruh I wish that was the case