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The Obamacare Website - How Does It Represent A Failure Of Government?


Leon Troutsky
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I'd also like to hear a credible alternative to Obamacare from the right. All that I've heard so far is "tort reform". But tort reform is not going to keep uninsured people from going to the ER, which increases costs for everyone. Tort reform is not going to help people who have preexisting conditions from getting insurance to cover their illnesses.

So we have Obamacare and we have a system modeled on what other countries around the world have done (like single payer). And from the right, we have what proposal or plan?

Do you believe that healthy people that work and pay taxes should subsidize the sick and the deadbeats? If so, just say so.

Call it what you want - its a tax increase on the middle class. Even the Supreme Court said its a tax.

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Then what is your alternative proposal? What ideas are there from the right to bring down the costs and increase the number of insured people?

No idea. I've got nothin'. The plans the right has proposed don't appeal to me and more importantly don't tackle the problem of out of control costs.

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Do you believe that healthy people that work and pay taxes should subsidize the sick and the deadbeats? If so, just say so.

Call it what you want - its a tax increase on the middle class. Even the Supreme Court said its a tax.

Healthy people who work subsidize the health care of the sick who work under the previous system. It's called insurance. You get a pool of people together and, on average, the profits from the healthy people will offset the losses from the sick people. Group plans have been based on this idea for years.

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Right. That's why when you bring the sick into the pool, it's not exactly insurance anymore.

Honest question here - why didn't we just expand Medicare/Medicaid for those people? That's the one thing that gives me pause when I hear the whackos screaming that this thing was designed to fail.

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So we're stuck with what might be a flawed law, a system with single-payer, or nothing. That's a pretty strong case for single payer, I think.

Just because it's the one we haven't tried? It MIGHT be OK? That's like picking cancer over AIDS.

Why can't someone with some smarts come up with an actual plan? And then get everyone to actually read it?

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Healthy people who work subsidize the health care of the sick who work under the previous system. It's called insurance. You get a pool of people together and, on average, the profits from the healthy people will offset the losses from the sick people. Group plans have been based on this idea for years.

yeah, its group coverage. However, Obamacare is asking for people that are known to be sick and will run up big health bills - Obamacare wants private insurance to take them anyway.

As far as the deadbeats go, they can still get care now at emergency rooms - its inefficient, but at least its inconvenient for them as well - which makes the deadbeats likely to only go to the doctor when they really need to. Give them "free" insurance and having no jobs, we will have to take a number at the doctor's office to get in the building.

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Right. That's why when you bring the sick into the pool, it's not exactly insurance anymore.

Honest question here - why didn't we just expand Medicare/Medicaid for those people? That's the one thing that gives me pause when I hear the whackos screaming that this thing was designed to fail.

It depends on which people you're talking about. The ACA does include an expansion of Medicaid for poor people.

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I'm just wondering where the money is going to come from to pay for this if it ever gets fully implemented.

its a middle class tax - disguised as your monthly healthcare premium.

For a family of four, making $100,000/yr in household income and currently paying $6,000/yr in healthcare premiums, they will probably pay about $10,000 (example) - so its a huge tax increase - plain and simple.

Obama ran for President saying he represented the middle class and jobs - all he has done in his presidency is work against the middle class with his job-killing policies and tax hikes - aka Obamacare.

The rich are not hurt by Obama as much as the middle class is - Obama has declared war on the middle class.

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I found the following two articles from 2009 very interesting. They show popular support for a public option, pretty substantially

http://www.reuters.c...E5B20OL20091203

http://www.huffingto...o_n_264375.html

public option explanation to the gov't educated people

Q: Do you want the government to make it where everyone has insurance all the time and runs things?

A: Yeah, that sounds good

There is never the follow-up question:

Q: For that, are you willing to pay an additional 10% of your income each year (for example)

Poll was conducted by MoveOn.org LOL

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The only way this will be able to work is to have the highest tax rates of any country in the history of the world and hope that the impossible happens and our economy grows at a faster rate than any country ever forever.

At a time when even liberal european countries are tacking back to the right and lowering tax rates and spending, America is moving to the left.

Greece is bankrupt and rioting in the streets as the failed social utopia has collapsed.

Barack Obama and U.S. are zigging while others see that zigging does not work and they are starting to zag.

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So since our deficit spending is half of what it was in 2009, what does that mean when people keep saying we aren't trying to get spending under control?

It means that we are still not operating without a deficit. Getting spending under control does not equate to incurring less debt. At some point, you have to try to reduce the amount of debt you are carrying by paying it back.

We are still spending about $600 BILLION more than we take in. Our government pays about $450 BILLION in interest on our outstanding debts every single year. To put that in perspective, if we didn't have any debt, we could almost operate at our current spending rate without increasing our debt. Getting spending under control would be paying down our debts to reduce our interest payments, which gives the government more money to spend without increasing taxes.

P.S. As we continue to operate with a deficit and we continue to increase our debt, we will begin paying even more in interest. Why would we not want to keep that interest money in the US?

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It means that we are still not operating without a deficit. Getting spending under control does not equate to incurring less debt. At some point, you have to try to reduce the amount of debt you are carrying by paying it back.

We are still spending about $600 BILLION more than we take in. Our government pays about $450 BILLION in interest on our outstanding debts every single year. To put that in perspective, if we didn't have any debt, we could almost operate at our current spending rate without increasing our debt. Getting spending under control would be paying down our debts to reduce our interest payments, which gives the government more money to spend without increasing taxes.

P.S. As we continue to operate with a deficit and we continue to increase our debt, we will begin paying even more in interest. Why would we not want to keep that interest money in the US?

Only point I was making was it's not going up and up like people are saying. Now let's cut some more and get us back to surplus! But I hope we can so it in such a way that we don't go back into a recession...

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