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Question For Those Who Support Republicans In The Shutdown Fight...


Leon Troutsky
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Suppose that it were 2007 and Nancy Pelosi along with the Democrats attached a full repeal of the Patriot Act and the Bush tax cuts to the budget. Bush and Republicans would obviously have rejected that. Pelosi says that unless they get some repeal of these laws, the government will shutdown.

Would you say that Pelosi was being reasonable? Would you argue that Bush should "compromise" and "negotiate" with the Democrats? Would you say that Bush should give up parts of the tax cuts or parts of the Patriot in exchange? And would you say that a shutdown would be Bush's fault because he wouldn't negotiate?

Is this how you want things to work if Republicans ever get the presidency?

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No, the debt is out of control and insanity is Adding 1 more gigantic entitlement program on top of the 5 other entitlement programs that are a huge part of our $17 trillion deficit. How does adding another Govt PROGRAM when they have NEVER worked before gonna be benificial? And, Obamas budget is a complete farce as well. TO hel. with these shenanigans.

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No, the debt is out of control and insanity is Adding 1 more gigantic entitlement program on top of the 5 other entitlement programs that are a huge part of our $17 trillion deficit. How does adding another Govt PROGRAM when they have NEVER worked before gonna be benificial? And, Obamas budget is a complete farce as well. TO hel. with these shenanigans.

You didn't answer any of the questions. Would you find this acceptable if Democrats had made such demands on Bush? And would Bush have been responsible for a shutdown for refusing to repeal some of his signature laws in exchange for keeping the government running for two months?

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The entire basis of your question (and thread) is the reason why you're viewed as a complete partisan hack.

You assume that people do not support Obamacare because it is sponsored by the Democrats; when in fact, the people are cheering on the Republicans because they are finally realizing how awful the legislation is.

And the answer to your question is that the people should support any party willing to to oppose any government action this awful. For example, I was emphatically opposed to both the Bush tax cuts (and stimulus) and Obama Porkulus bills.

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Why not? Parts of the Patriot act were an overreach. Of course, most of it had a sunset clause, not so with Obamacare. Plus, tax rates can be changed at any time, so you comparison is weak. But then any time you try to make your childish arguments they're weak.

Democrats in 2007 couldn't change the tax rates "at any time". Bush opposed eliminating them. Bush opposed repealing the Patriot Act.

Do you only support hostage-taking politics for policies you don't like? Or would you support these tactics if the party was trying to repeal policies that you supported?

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The entire basis of your question (and thread) is the reason why you're viewed as a complete partisan hack.

You assume that people do not support Obamacare because it is sponsored by the Democrats; when in fact, the people are cheering on the Republicans because they are finally realizing how awful the legislation is.

And the answer to your question is that the people should support any party willing to to oppose any government action this awful. For example, I was emphatically opposed to both the Bush tax cuts (and stimulus) and Obama Porkulus bills.

False, and ironic that you're calling other people partisan hacks.

I'm not asking if people are cheering Republicans because Obamacare is supported by Democrats. I'm asking if they would support the minority party using a government shutdown to force a repeal of policies they LIKE or personally support.

I noticed that you never answered the question. Should Bush have repealed the Patriot Act and his tax cuts in 2007 if Democrats had threatened to shut down the government? Is this how you want things to be governed?

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Also consider that even when Democrats had majorities in the House and Senate, they were unable to repeal the Bush tax cuts because of Republican filibusters. Interesting that Republicans want to stop the majority party from passing its agenda and now wants to force its own agenda onto the majority party.

Are we now going to allow the minority to dictate policy?

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False, and ironic that you're calling other people partisan hacks.

I'm not asking if people are cheering Republicans because Obamacare is supported by Democrats. I'm asking if they would support the minority party using a government shutdown to force a repeal of policies they LIKE or personally support.

I noticed that you never answered the question. Should Bush have repealed the Patriot Act and his tax cuts in 2007 if Democrats had threatened to shut down the government? Is this how you want things to be governed?

Can you read? I said that the people should support anyone willing to back their interests regardless of party.

I answered your question, but apparently you don't even understand what you asked...

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Can you read? I said that the people should support anyone willing to back their interests regardless of party.

I answered your question, but apparently you don't even understand what you asked...

So basically for you the ends justify the means - any action that stops legislation you don't support is okay. The minority gets to dictate policy to the majority, but only if you oppose the policy.

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So basically for you the ends justify the means - any action that stops legislation you don't support is okay. The minority gets to dictate policy to the majority, but only if you oppose the policy.

Depending on the severity of the situation, then the answer is yes. A Representive should be able to use any legal means to delay policy in favor of more discussion.

The founding fathers warned us on the ability of the majority to oppress the minority opinion; which is why they made it much easier to stop the government than to empower it.

Edited by Doozer
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Depending on the severity of the situation, then the answer is yes. A Representive should be able to use any legal means to delay policy in favor of more discussion.

The founding fathers warned us on the ability of the majority to oppress the minority opinion; which is why they made it much easier to stop the government than to empower it.

The law was passed three years ago. How much discussion do you think we need? blink.png

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I don't see the tactics to support political policy as "hostage taking" measures. Any time a liberal dislike the tactics of the opposition, they cry phrases like "hostage taking" "terrorist"."throwing granny off the cliff" etc.....

Yeah, it's the Democrats who talk about taking hostages. rolleyes.gif

The Oklahoma Republican said that after seven or eight days of shutdown the Republicans will begin to feel the heat from their constituents over lack of services back home, like pay for members of the military. To that end, Coburn explained that Republicans will not keep the government shuttered in order to defund Obamacare.

“The only time you shut down the government is when you shut it down and refuse to open it until you accomplish what you want. But we’ll fold like hotcakes,” Coburn told reporters. “You do not take a hostage you are not going to for sure shoot. And we will not for sure shoot this hostage.

From a Wall Street Journal editorial:

We'll support efforts to cut spending and reform entitlements, but the political result will be far worse if Republicans start this fight only to cave in the end. You can't take a hostage you aren't prepared to shoot. Do the two GOP leaders have a better strategy today than they did in 2011, and do they have the backbench support to execute it?

Or Mitch McConnell:

“I think some of our members may have thought the default issue was a hostage you might take a chance at shooting. Most of us didn’t think that. What we did learn is this — it’s a hostage that’s worth ransoming. And it focuses the Congress on something that must be done.”

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We dont have a parliamentary system. The minority is more powerful here. That is a good thing. Your guys are winning. So, why are you whining?

The minority has more power, but the system was never designed to require 60% majority on every single decision. And it was never designed for the minority to dictate policy by threatening to shut down the government or default on the debt.

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I don't see the tactics to support political policy as "hostage taking" measures.

Republicans voted 42 times on Obamacare. They've made their position clear. They lost. Now they want to shut down the government to get the policies they couldn't get in the last election.

Just because we don't like the law doesn't mean we should justify an "any means necessary" approach.

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The minority has more power, but the system was never designed to require 60% majority on every single decision. And it was never designed for the minority to dictate policy by threatening to shut down the government or default on the debt.

But they arent, are they. Obamacare passed. It will get funding.
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