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Obamacare: If You Don't Think Obama/dems Goal Is "single-Payer" Then You Are On Crack...


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Acworth is far from ignorant in my opinion, he is just so invested in ideology that he continues to labor under the delusion that democrats give a crap about him, the ideals they shout that they care about, or the good of this country. Washington politics corrupts all of those in power who go there.

Republicans are every bit as bad, but I just don't argue that they are trying to do better for any of us, but just can't because the big, bad liberal machine won't let them. All any of them care about is staying in their ivory towers. To **** with all of them. This is just the latest example of the hubris and narcissism of Washington politicians, no surprises, just more disappointment..

My point in this thread is simple - there is no grand conspiracy to have some socialist Marxist Kenyan government takeover of health care. "Obamacare" is really just a Republican proposal from two decades ago. It's pretty telling that Republican ideas from 20 years ago are now considered extreme and liberal by those on the right. Conservatives thought the individual mandate and health care exchanges were pretty good ideas...until Obama proposed them.

Calm down and stop getting so wrapped up in the "ZOMG it's a conspirazies" stuff. Does Obama support single payer? Of course he does. Republicans support privatizing social security, as well. But I don't think their proposal to raise the retirement age is somehow a conspiracy that would inevitably put us on track to privatization.

Some things are just what they are.

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Acworth is far from ignorant in my opinion, he is just so invested in ideology that he continues to labor under the delusion that democrats give a crap about him, the ideals they shout that they care about, or the good of this country. Washington politics corrupts all of those in power who go there.

Also, this part is kind of hilarious. You are the one so invested in an extreme conservative ideology that you will call people like Newt Gingrich and Mitt Romney "RINOs". I'm making a case for a bipartisan, moderate proposal (individual mandate). You are calling Republicans who supported that moderate, bipartisan proposal "fools" and "RINOs". But somehow I get attacked as the ideologue.

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And before you try to tell me that we can change health in this country, let me say this, the people of this country only respond to sensationalism. We aren't about the sensationalize health in this country because we don't want people to get their feelings hurt.

As this country's health continues to trend downward rates in privatized healthcare will only continue to climb eventually to the point where the majority can't afford it.

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I hope this doesn't happen. The medical insurance business is running perfectly as it is now. Gov't intervention will surely screw this up.

Here is a real world example of how awesome our healthcare is.

I pay $183.07 per paycheck towards my health insurance, and my company pays $433.74. That is a total of $14803.44. This is for Blue Cross Blue Shield PPO. They give me a $2000 HRA account at the beginning of every year. It is a $5000 family deductible.

So far this year, we have had the following

1 Child got her shots for school

1 Child had 2 pediatric visits for being sick

1 child had 1 pediatric visit for being sick

1 child had an ER visit, that was just xrays

1 adult had an ER visit that was xrays and a tetanus shot.

After my HRA was exhausted, I still owe $2500 out of pocket. I don't know about you guys, but this system is awesome.

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Also, this part is kind of hilarious. You are the one so invested in an extreme conservative ideology that you will call people like Newt Gingrich and Mitt Romney "RINOs". I'm making a case for a bipartisan, moderate proposal (individual mandate). You are calling Republicans who supported that moderate, bipartisan proposal "fools" and "RINOs". But somehow I get attacked as the ideologue.

Because I don't care if good ideas come from a republican or a democrat, and I equally don't care where the bad ones come from. I honest to God do not care, I think that most representatives are smart people and could get an awful lot done if they had ANY interest in doing so, which I just as fervently believe that they do not.....not from either side. Those proposing this mess see the pitfalls, the long term costs. They see exactly why it is not sustainable in it's present form, but they could not care less. It will grow government, it will expand and sustain their grip on power, perks, and the comforts that they've grown to expect and that it all that really matters. I know I'm generalizing, but no one can convince me that 100 pretty intelligent (save a few notable examples) US Senators, and 435 equally intelligent (save several very notable examples) US Congressmen cannot get more done that they do. Its a game that they have made the rule for and reap the benefits of on a daily basis, so why would they change it just for the benefit of their country or their constituents.

You say I'm partisan, I used to be, but I think republicans are every bit as bad as democrats. I do agree more with what republican politicians claim to believe, but that is as far as it goes. If Obama were a good president, I would support him, but he is not.....not even a little. I say your blinded by your ideology because for the most part despite whenever obviously poor decisions are made by this president and congress, you answer those decisions by pointing out when republicans made even worse or similarly poor decisions in the past and scream hypocrisy, rather than just simply saying....."Yea, that was a pretty messed up policy or decision".

None of them are out to help you or me......or this country. Every decision is weighed and considered for political capitol vs damage, and its all about their next election.

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Because I don't care if good ideas come from a republican or a democrat, and I equally don't care where the bad ones come from. I honest to God do not care, I think that most representatives are smart people and could get an awful lot done if they had ANY interest in doing so, which I just as fervently believe that they do not.....not from either side. Those proposing this mess see the pitfalls, the long term costs. They see exactly why it is not sustainable in it's present form, but they could not care less. It will grow government, it will expand and sustain their grip on power, perks, and the comforts that they've grown to expect and that it all that really matters. I know I'm generalizing, but no one can convince me that 100 pretty intelligent (save a few notable examples) US Senators, and 435 equally intelligent (save several very notable examples) US Congressmen cannot get more done that they do. Its a game that they have made the rule for and reap the benefits of on a daily basis, so why would they change it just for the benefit of their country or their constituents.

You say I'm partisan, I used to be, but I think republicans are every bit as bad as democrats. I do agree more with what republican politicians claim to believe, but that is as far as it goes. If Obama were a good president, I would support him, but he is not.....not even a little. I say your blinded by your ideology because for the most part despite whenever obviously poor decisions are made by this president and congress, you answer those decisions by pointing out when republicans made even worse or similarly poor decisions in the past and scream hypocrisy, rather than just simply saying....."Yea, that was a pretty messed up policy or decision".

None of them are out to help you or me......or this country. Every decision is weighed and considered for political capitol vs damage, and its all about their next election.

I said that you are ideological, not partisan.

And as I explained in the previous post, my point is that there is not some vast conspiracy at play here. Or, if there is, then virtually all of the conservative Republicans in 1990 were in on the conspiracy to create a government takeover of health care. Which is to say, it's pretty silly to think that the individual mandate and health care exchanges are a conspiracy.

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Because I don't care if good ideas come from a republican or a democrat, and I equally don't care where the bad ones come from. I honest to God do not care, I think that most representatives are smart people and could get an awful lot done if they had ANY interest in doing so, which I just as fervently believe that they do not.....not from either side. Those proposing this mess see the pitfalls, the long term costs. They see exactly why it is not sustainable in it's present form, but they could not care less. It will grow government, it will expand and sustain their grip on power, perks, and the comforts that they've grown to expect and that it all that really matters. I know I'm generalizing, but no one can convince me that 100 pretty intelligent (save a few notable examples) US Senators, and 435 equally intelligent (save several very notable examples) US Congressmen cannot get more done that they do. Its a game that they have made the rule for and reap the benefits of on a daily basis, so why would they change it just for the benefit of their country or their constituents.

You say I'm partisan, I used to be, but I think republicans are every bit as bad as democrats. I do agree more with what republican politicians claim to believe, but that is as far as it goes. If Obama were a good president, I would support him, but he is not.....not even a little. I say your blinded by your ideology because for the most part despite whenever obviously poor decisions are made by this president and congress, you answer those decisions by pointing out when republicans made even worse or similarly poor decisions in the past and scream hypocrisy, rather than just simply saying....."Yea, that was a pretty messed up policy or decision".

None of them are out to help you or me......or this country. Every decision is weighed and considered for political capitol vs damage, and its all about their next election.

Dam fine piece right there, SB!

f4ifxc.jpg

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My point in this thread is simple - there is no grand conspiracy to have some socialist Marxist Kenyan government takeover of health care. "Obamacare" is really just a Republican proposal from two decades ago. It's pretty telling that Republican ideas from 20 years ago are now considered extreme and liberal by those on the right. Conservatives thought the individual mandate and health care exchanges were pretty good ideas...until Obama proposed them.

Calm down and stop getting so wrapped up in the "ZOMG it's a conspirazies" stuff. Does Obama support single payer? Of course he does. Republicans support privatizing social security, as well. But I don't think their proposal to raise the retirement age is somehow a conspiracy that would inevitably put us on track to privatization.

Some things are just what they are.

You are exactly right about this being a Republican plan. The funny thing is that if Dubya had passed the exact same plan, every Democrat would be screaming about how this is just another way for the Republicans to line the pockets of their cronies in the insurance industry.

Partisan politics is partisan.

Edited by Gritzblitz 2.0
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You are exactly right about this being a Republican plan. The funny thing is that if Dubya had passed the exact same plan, every Democrat would be screaming about how this is just another way for the Republicans to line the pocket of their cronies in the insurance industry.

Partisan politics is partisan.

Yes, it is. And you're right about Democrats. Nothing I said here contradicts that. This thread was started by some conservative whackadoodle claiming that Obamacare is some secret plot to create a government takeover of health care. If it had been started by some liberal whackadoodle making a similar conspiracy theory about Republicans, I would have responded accordingly.

Context is important.

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Yes, it is. And you're right about Democrats. Nothing I said here contradicts that. This thread was started by some conservative whackadoodle claiming that Obamacare is some secret plot to create a government takeover of health care. If it had been started by some liberal whackadoodle making a similar conspiracy theory about Republicans, I would have responded accordingly.

Context is important.

Acworthese translation for Whackadoodle; anyone who doesn't agree

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I hope this doesn't happen. The medical insurance business is running perfectly as it is now. Gov't intervention will surely screw this up.

Here is a real world example of how awesome our healthcare is.

I pay $183.07 per paycheck towards my health insurance, and my company pays $433.74. That is a total of $14803.44. This is for Blue Cross Blue Shield PPO. They give me a $2000 HRA account at the beginning of every year. It is a $5000 family deductible.

So far this year, we have had the following

1 Child got her shots for school

1 Child had 2 pediatric visits for being sick

1 child had 1 pediatric visit for being sick

1 child had an ER visit, that was just xrays

1 adult had an ER visit that was xrays and a tetanus shot.

After my HRA was exhausted, I still owe $2500 out of pocket. I don't know about you guys, but this system is awesome.

No comments on the above?

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For as much grief as snake gets, he and Acworth are two sides of the same coin. Both are blindly partisan cheerleaders. The main difference being that Acworth throws out stupid little insults to people and snake challenges people to come to his dojo.

Check out some partisan cheerleading:

President-Elect Romney bringing in some big crowds. And he doesn't even need Katy Perry and Bruce Springsteen to do it. Over 30,000 in PA tonight:

webkit-fake-url://78800AC6-3C45-417C-8A36-B44E3F7AA8C8/pastedGraphic.pdf

Here is my state of the states as I see it:

Florida and North Carolina: Pretty much locked up for Romney. The fact that Romney hasn't paid any attention to NC and little attention to FL in his final days tells you that he thinks they are pretty much locked up. Obama has pretty much given up on NC too.

Virginia: This one is leading Romney and I think he should be able to take it. Both campaigns are spending some time there. Obama to swipe it and Romney to defend it.

Ohio and Colorado: I think the early voting numbers have pretty much sealed the deal for Romney. These are his states to lose.

Nevada and Minnesota: These most likely go to Obama but early voting in NV has created a small opening for Romney. Both states slightly lean Obama but they have the chance to be close. Romney is within striking distance of an upset in both but probably won't be able to snag them.

Michigan: Romney took a stab at it but I think it's a little too far out of reach. He's wisely spending his resources on states that are closer.

Pennsylvania, New Hampshire, Wisconsin, and Iowa: These are states that usually have Obama leading in polls but I think turnout and enthusiasm makes them targets to turn to red. I think they most likely turn red but because of their history, could stay blue.

My map remains unchanged:

But some of these states could swing depending on turnout. My original prediction was "Could be anywhere from 275 to 347 electoral votes for Romney depending on turnout." but I made this map since I was asked to be more specific. This map pretty much falls in the middle of that prediction.

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This is some hard core partisan cheerleading:

The fact that we're talking about PA at all should have the libs here very worried. Per my map I would say I give PA a 55% chance of turning red. The edge I give to Romney is based on enthusiasm and Obama's war on coal and Catholics. It's nearly a coin flip and may be the closest race right now.

Think about it. In 2008 we were talking about IN possibly flipping, now are talking about PA possibly flipping. This is a different race than 2008.

Don't worry Obama worshipers, all is well. You can totally believe the polls that over-sample Democrats and pay no regard to projected voter turnout on Nov 6th. All is well...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zDAmPIq29ro

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More partisan cheerleading:

Back on topic. In 2008 it was over when Palin had to start campaigning in NC late in the game. If Republicans can't carry NC they are done.

In 2012 now you have Obama & Biden having to defend traditionally blue states like Minnesota and Pennsylvania. Not a good omen for them. If you don't believe me google it.

If you like Obama and believe Nate Silver, enjoy your comfort until election day. If you look at what the campaign is doing, you'll see it's not going so well.

That said, people are going to be VERY angry with Nate Silver after election day. Because of his analysis people have been buying up Obama shares in the prediction markets. Silver's going to cause A LOT of people to lose their shirts.

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wrong is wrong - romney was wrong too......good grief acworth - you view everything as "republicans vs. democrats" - frankly the gamesmanship does not interest me and I don't lay my head down at night thinking saying "republican, republican". Dems are wrong on most issues - Repubs are wrong on some issues - they are just the better option between the parties but far from perfect and far from conservative on a variety of topics. I don't give a rats arss what Mitt Romney wants or believes. Obamacare is WRONG for the country and Single-Payer is WRONG for the country. America has/had the best healthcare in the world - while far from perfect - it was by far the best - and it is being damaged by Obama and Liberal Utopia - and it does not matter if Romney did it / believes in it or not.

actually both dems and republicans are wrong on most issues
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Yes, it is. And you're right about Democrats. Nothing I said here contradicts that. This thread was started by some conservative whackadoodle claiming that Obamacare is some secret plot to create a government takeover of health care. If it had been started by some liberal whackadoodle making a similar conspiracy theory about Republicans, I would have responded accordingly.

Context is important.

you are the one talking in circles not me. You are sooooooo concerned with who you deem originated the idea/thought of universal healthcare. The idea of universal healthcare has been around for 50 years - hardly a new thought - Romney(Republican Governor)/Massachusettes(left-wing state) came together and adopted universal coverage for their state - they were the first one to do it. You take this fact, and twist it into something else entirely. Bad law is bad law - regardless of "who gets credit for it". If you want to give Republicans/Romney credit for the disaster that is Obamacare - you will do so - just don't expect any of us to buy your propaganda - you can credit(blame) a Republican for 1 state(Mass - even though that was bi-partisan). but Obama/Libs get the credit for the other 49 - this is an INDISPUTABLE FACT.

Like others have said, and I have said 10 times in this thread - I don't care who started this Obamacare cluster that has been forced on the American people - it does not matter who did it/ its a trainwreck - its so bad that the Dems are delaying implementing a large portion of it so they don't suffer politically from it. Obama knows this law is a trainwreck and so do his counterparts in congress - they literally don't want to implement the law they passed until after 2014.

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you are the one talking in circles not me. You are sooooooo concerned with who you deem originated the idea/thought of universal healthcare. The idea of universal healthcare has been around for 50 years - hardly a new thought - Romney(Republican Governor)/Massachusettes(left-wing state) came together and adopted universal coverage for their state - they were the first one to do it. You take this fact, and twist it into something else entirely. Bad law is bad law - regardless of "who gets credit for it". If you want to give Republicans/Romney credit for the disaster that is Obamacare - you will do so - just don't expect any of us to buy your propaganda - you can credit(blame) a Republican for 1 state(Mass - even though that was bi-partisan). but Obama/Libs get the credit for the other 49 - this is an INDISPUTABLE FACT.

Like others have said, and I have said 10 times in this thread - I don't care who started this Obamacare cluster that has been forced on the American people - it does not matter who did it/ its a trainwreck - its so bad that the Dems are delaying implementing a large portion of it so they don't suffer politically from it. Obama knows this law is a trainwreck and so do his counterparts in congress - they literally don't want to implement the law they passed until after 2014.

Clueless drivel.

First, the point is that your view that this is some vast conspiracy for government takeover of health care is ridiculous considering that "Obamacare" was once the position of conservative Republicans going as far back as 1993. It was a Republican idea originally, so it cannot be some vast leftwing conspiracy to create single payer...unless all conservatives were in on the conspiracy back in the 1990s.

Second, the reason for the delay in implementation is that businesses didn't make the proper accommodations for the transition. Insurance companies are complaining that their computer systems are not designed to aggregate all out-of-pocket expenses for their clients, so they need more time to fix their computers. The problem is that they've had a few years to do this already and delayed because they were focused on getting the law thrown out in court.

It's ironic in a sick kind of way - large businesses are requesting more time because they didn't believe the law would be implemented, Obama gives them more time, and that delay is used to attack the law itself.

But yeah, it's such a train wreck that Obama won reelection and Democrats got more votes for Congress than did Republicans. What a public relations disaster! Just imagine when people are not denied insurance for preexisting conditions. Just imagine the outrage when students can stay on their parents' health care while in college. The pitchforks are really going to come out when people realize there is a cap on how much money they have to pay each year out of pocket. I mean, who doesn't want to go bankrupt because they got sick and their insurance forces them to foot 20% of a ridiculously overpriced hospital bill?

Freedom, FFS!

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I've never seen Republicans fight so hard against something that was once their own idea (individual mandate/Obamacare). I swear, Obama could propose eliminating corporate taxes and privatizing social security and Republicans would rail against it as a "socialist government takeover".

The stupidity is mind-boggling.

what are things homo say arex
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Clueless drivel.

First, the point is that your view that this is some vast conspiracy for government takeover of health care is ridiculous considering that "Obamacare" was once the position of conservative Republicans going as far back as 1993. It was a Republican idea originally, so it cannot be some vast leftwing conspiracy to create single payer...unless all conservatives were in on the conspiracy back in the 1990s.

Second, the reason for the delay in implementation is that businesses didn't make the proper accommodations for the transition. Insurance companies are complaining that their computer systems are not designed to aggregate all out-of-pocket expenses for their clients, so they need more time to fix their computers. The problem is that they've had a few years to do this already and delayed because they were focused on getting the law thrown out in court.

It's ironic in a sick kind of way - large businesses are requesting more time because they didn't believe the law would be implemented, Obama gives them more time, and that delay is used to attack the law itself.

But yeah, it's such a train wreck that Obama won reelection and Democrats got more votes for Congress than did Republicans. What a public relations disaster! Just imagine when people are not denied insurance for preexisting conditions. Just imagine the outrage when students can stay on their parents' health care while in college. The pitchforks are really going to come out when people realize there is a cap on how much money they have to pay each year out of pocket. I mean, who doesn't want to go bankrupt because they got sick and their insurance forces them to foot 20% of a ridiculously overpriced hospital bill?

Freedom, FFS!

you really don't want to engage in debate - you want to cut off debate. you use words like "idiot", "clueless drivel", "right wing conspiracy" "republican this" "republican that" - you really don't want to engage in debate. This is classic talking points of the left - call people that disagree with you crazy names and say they are "nut jobs", etc, etc. - don't engage in the actual debates on underlying ideas. that is all you do...you don't really want to talk about the issue.
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you really don't want to engage in debate - you want to cut off debate. you use words like "idiot", "clueless drivel", "right wing conspiracy" "republican this" "republican that" - you really don't want to engage in debate. This is classic talking points of the left - call people that disagree with you crazy names and say they are "nut jobs", etc, etc. - don't engage in the actual underlying ideas. that is all you do...you don't really want to talk about the issue.

Says the guy who failed to address any of the facts that I presented in the post to which he responded.

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The prognosis isn’t looking too good for the implementation of the labyrinthine Obamacare law.

The Obama administration announced this week that special exchanges designed to “make it easier” for small businesses to provide affordable health care insurance for employees will be delayed again to 2015 in the 33 states where the federal government will be running the exchanges.

As Robert Pear of the New York Timesexplains, “The law calls for a new insurance marketplace specifically for small businesses, starting next year. But in most states, employers will not be able to get what Congress intended: the option to provide workers with a choice of health plans. They will instead be limited to a single plan.

“The promise of affordable health insurance for small businesses was portrayed as a major advantage of the new health care law, mentioned often by White House officials and Democratic leaders in Congress as they fought opponents of the legislation.”

Since insurance is more expensive for small businesses anyway, it’ll just be cheaper for them to pay the penalty and dump employees into the government exchanges than it would be to pay for the insurance. The non-partisan Congressional Budget Office projects the penalties to bring in a total of $13 billion a year in revenue – or only about 30 hours worth of federal spending.

Many other people are finding out they’re losing their plans as well due to Obamacare, from part-time employees to spouses. In fact, the CBO projected this year a total of 7 million people will lose their employment-based coverage, almost double its original estimation. The total number of people participating in those exchanges is projected to grow from 7 million in 2014 – the first year they’ll be available – to 24 million in 2016.

Rack up millions more voters dependent on government for yet another service.

On top of that, due to widespread opposition to the medical device sales tax provision of Obamacare, the Senate voted 79-20 to repeal that portion of the bill, something the House already did by a vote of 270-146.

That tax was billed as a way to help pay for the law, the projected costs of which keep rising every year. An actuarial study from the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services concluded that as a result of the law, health care spending will be $478 billion higher over the next decade than it would have otherwise been had no law been passed. Furthermore, as a result of the law, about 50 cents of every dollar of health care spending in the U.S. will be financed by the government by 2021, bringing us halfway to full government-run health care.

Almost three years after it was passed, the legislation is still as unpopular as ever. So the administration has now turned to mass marketing for help in researching the lives of uninsured people, hoping to craft winning sales pitches to garner more support for the law, especially in time for the 2014 midterm elections. Marketing for the new system will start this summer, going into high gear during the fall after premiums and other plan information becomes public.

As chaotic as this bill is, and as many times as it’s being delayed, it was still way easier to pass it than it will ever be to repeal it. That’s what the Democrats had in mind during those four months in 2009 between Sen. Arlen Specter’s switch to the Democratic Party and Sen. Ted Kennedy’s death in August. That gave them a 60 seat filibuster proof majority, in addition to a House majority, allowing them the opportunity to pass any legislation they wanted with lightening speed – highly unusual in Washington. They were going to make it count, electorally. Of all the things they could’ve passed, they went for the one goal they’ve had for decades and was thwarted the last time it was tried: near-universal health care.

Pass it now, ask questions later. And we have ever since, with everyone still trying to find out what’s in it, Republicans doing everything they can to defund it, and Democrats scrambling to still sell it in hopes of changing public opinion.

I’m sure this administration wasn’t expecting the resistance they’ve encountered from the public for yet another entitlement. Most Americans like their Social Security and Medicare, so naturally, they should’ve loved this one too. Instead, they’ve been fighting it every step of the way, and no amount of mass marketing will change the clear fact that this bill was nothing more than major federal power grab.

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