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Robb4242

2013 Imd Discussion

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ah dang jrob.. i was hoping edwards would last til my pick later in this round..

I needed some more d-linemen and he was the best available according to most draft sites.

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I needed some more d-linemen and he was the best available according to most draft sites.

yep he was a good pick, i was hoping no one would pick him before my next turn.. i have seen him play and the issue for him was he was sharing time with 2 other terrific dlinemen so he was rotating in not as much as the other guys so his stats don't scream "good prospect", but a lot had to do with who else he was playing with. whoever gets him this late is getting a nice player with some good potential.

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Dude, I've tried to be accommodating and such, but right now you're not even making sense. Just because you say it doesn't make it true. Sell me on Lester. Give me some game tape that will make me think he's a special player. I'm not just talking about this year; I wasn't sold on him last year either. Sell me, though. I've never refused to give a player a chance. Heck, if you don't have a particular game, just give me a Youtube video of the game like people always post snapshots of here. Just not a highlight tape...that's flat out insulting.

While we're at it, sell me on Washington too. I love Commings late, and Ogletree has enough potential that he's not worth arguing about. Don't see anything in Lester though, and Washington has almost no good game tape, even last year.

I'm not saying Lester is a star or a special player, and also because you say it doesn't make it true. Lester has special ball skills -- any safety that has 8 interceptions in a season in the SEC and then has 4 interceptions in the 2nd half of his senior year would qualify for having special ball skills. From the safety spot, he does a great job of identifying the route being run and getting to the spot he needs to be in to make a play on the ball. That comes to naturally to some people, and others never master it. He doesn't have eye popping athleticism, not even close, so his instincts with that in mind are quite impressive. He can be a solid starter as a strong safety in the NFL -- probably not a great one but also one that you can just plug and play and not really have to worry about. He started for 3 years for Alabama and has two championships to show for it. You don't need great measurables to be an effective strong safety (see: Taylor Mays), just good instincts, good tackling, and not getting out of position. I said he'd be a good pick in the 5th for the Falcons, not the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd. He's a guy who would probably get on the field as a rookie because he's definitely better than Mitchell who we took last year as safety depth. We also will be up in a lot of games due to our offense and having 3 safeties as opposed to 3 corners or 3 linebackers could be something useful at times.

As far as Washington, I've made several posts in different threads arguing with you about his ability and I'm not going to dilute the IMD Discussion thread continuing to do that. Watch the Alabama game, and watch him destroy Chance Warmack every time they line up over each other. There won't be a lot of impressive game tape because he was playing out of position last year in a position that asks you to occupy blockers to free up outside linebackers, not make flashy plays. You claim to be an avid watcher of film and have some knowledge on football.......if that's true, I shouldn't have to explain to you the difference in a 3-4 defensive end and his responsibilities and a 4-3 defensive end and his responsibilities. And if you followed the link I already provided in my previous post, you would be reading about how most of his game tape would on the surface show a late round pick but in the few times he was used in a pass rushing or explosive role he had a dominant impact, and also that he progressed throughout the year and got much better by the end.

Washington is a little raw, just like Ogletree but for a different reason, because he hasn't been trained at a position where he will be playing in the National Football League. He was used in college at a position that his coaches needed him at and knew he would survive because of his brute strength. He's an unselfish player who put the team before himself, gave up the pursuit of sacks for holding the point and freeing up his teammates to make plays in the backfield. When he was given opportunities to play OLB and pass rushing DE at UGA he typically dominated his snaps. And when other coaches gave him an opportunity to rush at Senior Bowl practices, he was dominant all week and it made people go back and watch film from previous years before the 3-4 switch. Do not fault him for being an unselfish player and doing his job in a role that won't show up on film. If it wasn't talked about on ESPN, people wouldn't even know who Justin Smith is on the 49ers because he doesn't show up in the stat sheet. They aren't similar players, but they played the exact same role last year.

Fact is, Washington has rare athleticism, speed, and strength and has shown in limited opportunities that he can be a force few, if any can, deal with off the edge. He needs coaching and consistency in one position, and I believe if he lands on a team that uses him as a 4-3 LDE or 3-4 strongside OLB that he will be a terror in time. I hope it's the Falcons, because we could use him as a much more impressive Kroy Biermann utility piece. 3-4 DE, 4-3 DE, 3-4 OLB. Kroy can play 3-4 OLB, 4-3 DE, and limited 4-3 SLB snaps. With these kinds of players you have to project their raw, natural abilities and the kind of coaches you have and scheme you run and figure out if they can harness those abilities into a great football player. He's nowhere near his potential.

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I agreed with you on Lester being a good pick, I said in my very post I had him as a late fourth rounder and he was terrific value where you picked. I said that a while back, so I don't know why you feel like arguing with me.

In regards to Washington, bringing up the Bama game was a bad idea. He plays too high, he doesn't show his power, and he was invisible almost the entire game. Even when watching him, I had to force myself to focus on him the whole game instead of paying attention to guys like Ogletree, who was pretty freaking fantastic in it. I mean, come on...Washington lost his job to a walk on. All physical, very little actual football ability.

And calling him unselfish? Are you freaking kidding me? Just because he played a position he didn't want to? The guy is a freaking poison in the locker room. Attacks fans and says he despises them in a Facebook rant. Got a DUI arrest. Apparently talks back to coaches.

On top of that, while he was definitely miscast as a 3-4 DE, he wasn't that impressive in 2011 either. Has a good first step but he's totally undisciplined against the run. I would say that's correctable, as is his lack of hand use, but some things he does just aren't...and going off his attitude issues, I wouldn't say he's inclined to get in the film room and change them. Things like play recognition and maintaining leverage. His pass rush move repertoire is limited as well.

Just can't see our FO taking that chance. He needs a perfect situation to even have a chance at success in the NFL, and what we have, with our needs - he just doesn't fit. Square muscle bound peg in a round hole.

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I agreed with you on Lester being a good pick, I said in my very post I had him as a late fourth rounder and he was terrific value where you picked. I said that a while back, so I don't know why you feel like arguing with me.

In regards to Washington, bringing up the Bama game was a bad idea. He plays too high, he doesn't show his power, and he was invisible almost the entire game. Even when watching him, I had to force myself to focus on him the whole game instead of paying attention to guys like Ogletree, who was pretty freaking fantastic in it. I mean, come on...Washington lost his job to a walk on. All physical, very little actual football ability.

And calling him unselfish? Are you freaking kidding me? Just because he played a position he didn't want to? The guy is a freaking poison in the locker room. Attacks fans and says he despises them in a Facebook rant. Got a DUI arrest. Apparently talks back to coaches.

On top of that, while he was definitely miscast as a 3-4 DE, he wasn't that impressive in 2011 either. Has a good first step but he's totally undisciplined against the run. I would say that's correctable, as is his lack of hand use, but some things he does just aren't...and going off his attitude issues, I wouldn't say he's inclined to get in the film room and change them. Things like play recognition and maintaining leverage. His pass rush move repertoire is limited as well.

Just can't see our FO taking that chance. He needs a perfect situation to even have a chance at success in the NFL, and what we have, with our needs - he just doesn't fit. Square muscle bound peg in a round hole.

Once again, you aren't going to find good tape on a kid who is playing a position that asks him to occupy blockers and playing a position he isn't meant to play. You are in the real world minority when it comes to if he has a ton of potential waiting to be tapped in the right role:

02/27/2013 - 02/27/13 NFL DRAFT SCOUT RISER: 3. Cornelius Washington, DE, Georgia...The Bulldogs have several defenders who will hear their name called in the 2013 NFL Draft, including notable prospects like Jarvis Jones, Alec Ogletree and John Jenkins. However, one name who is often overlooked is Washington, a versatile pass rusher who turned heads at the Senior Bowl and this past week in Indianapolis. At 6-4 and 265 pounds, he was one of the top performers among several drills, including the 40-yard dash (4.55), bench press (36 reps), vertical leap (39 inches) and broad jump (10-8). Miscast as a down-lineman in the Georgia's three-man front, Washington registered just a half sack as a senior in 2012 and was used to occupy blocks, freeing up room for Jones and the other Bulldog pass rushers. But Washington has the athleticism to be a handful for blockers in his own right. - Dane Brugler, NFLDraftScout.com

He routinely got the better of Alabama's OL -- and that doesn't mean he has to be disruptive. If his job is to occupy blockers and keep them off of the linebackers to allow players like Ogletree to roam free and make plays left and right ---- and then you say that Ogletree had a fantastic game making plays left and right ---- it means that Washington had a very good game doing what he was asked to do. This is exactly my point and I'm not going to discuss it further because we keep coming back to this idiotic notion of he had to have flash plays when his role specifically demanded for him not to.

He got a DUI, he didn't commit murder. And he's an emotional player, that's fine with me. He attacked fans for getting down the team, it's not the best but some people let it get the best of them and can't take booing by their fans who are supposed to support them. If he lands in a situation where he will be used in the right role and is coached up --- and we certainly have a strong locker room with veteran leadership to help steer him in the right direction --- he can really become a force. When he fires low out of his stance he was unmatchable leverage because of his strength and ability to turn speed to power. You are going off of "character issues" based on a DUI and one facebook post....that is laughable. He didn't quit on his team, he didn't get in any fights on the team...he's just an emotional kid. He'll be fine. Hopefully he doesn't get Dorsey'd and land on a team that asks him to be a 3-4 DE. Wherever he ends up he will naturally wow in camp and he'll probably impress in the preseason in pass rushing opportunities.

He's actually a muscled up round peg for a round hole in Atlanta. We're going to be running a hybrid defense, and value versatility. We want defensive ends who can hold the point and help stop the run, but also because able to collapse the pocket from the edge. Washington can certainly hold the point which we saw him do snap after snap all season as a miscast 3-4 DE. And we know from his Senior Bowl week that given an opportunity as a 4-3 DE and even just a little bit of coaching from people who run a 4-3, he can be a terror rushing the passer. A good coaching staff can take Washington and his natural abilities and turn him into a very good complete defensive end. We haven't seen even close to the best of Cornelius Washington because we haven't seen him in a role that can come close to maximizing his abilities. That is the consensus.

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I couldn't give a rat's about consensus, I say what I see and it's worked out really well in the past in terms of evaluating players. Pay too much attention to what the media says and it's easy to lose sight of what your own opinion really is.

And I already said I watched Washington play other positions and he didn't impress me that much. He's got physical upside, and he looked good some times at the Senior Bowl. I just don't think he's that great, though, and on top of that, he's not a likely pick for our coaches.

It's your opinion though, that's fine. Feel free to dig up stuff on how you were right later, if you are - I just personally find myself really, really unimpressed with him.

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I couldn't give a rat's about consensus, I say what I see and it's worked out really well in the past in terms of evaluating players. Pay too much attention to what the media says and it's easy to lose sight of what your own opinion really is.

And I already said I watched Washington play other positions and he didn't impress me that much. He's got physical upside, and he looked good some times at the Senior Bowl. I just don't think he's that great, though, and on top of that, he's not a likely pick for our coaches.

It's your opinion though, that's fine. Feel free to dig up stuff on how you were right later, if you are - I just personally find myself really, really unimpressed with him.

How dare you suggest that anything TDB says could be anything other than fact! -_-

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How dare you suggest that anything TDB says could be anything other than fact! sleep.png

If only we had Reggie Wayne, Domenik Hixon, and Brandon Gibson as our WR core.....we'd have the most explosive offense in the league!!

Oh wait.....oh yeah, that's insane.

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shush bitter boy, clearly something is bothering you today. You don't have to go around commenting on it.

Quit crying.

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everything I have read on him says he will be a right tackle in the NFL.

I've read quite a few people saying that but I think that's garbage. Even if it is true the Skins needed a RT.

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LMAO I love how Robert Lester is an instant starter and a great player but DJ Swearinger isn't athletic enough.

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Quit crying.

LMAO I love how Robert Lester is an instant starter and a great player but DJ Swearinger isn't athletic enough.

You need to quit crying, clearly something crawled up your skirt a week ago and you went back to dig it up because it hasn't crawled back out.

And again, if you can read, I never said Lester is a great player and I said safety will likely be the Jets #1 need next offseason for the IMD. He has 3 years starting experience for Saban and has proven he's a solid strong safety, so he can plug and play as a rookie.

And yes, he is more athletic than Swearinger. That's just a fact. Sorry you have a crush on Swearinger, a smaller, slower safety than Lester who was less of a playmaker in college. Also a fact.

I wonder where you get your ideas from........walterfootball?

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If only we had Reggie Wayne, Domenik Hixon, and Brandon Gibson as our WR core.....we'd have the most explosive offense in the league!!

Oh wait.....oh yeah, that's insane.

Someone is jealous. You forgot Jason Avant, too. ;)

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You need to quit crying, clearly something crawled up your skirt a week ago and you went back to dig it up because it hasn't crawled back out.

And again, if you can read, I never said Lester is a great player and I said safety will likely be the Jets #1 need next offseason for the IMD. He has 3 years starting experience for Saban and has proven he's a solid strong safety, so he can plug and play as a rookie.

And yes, he is more athletic than Swearinger. That's just a fact. Sorry you have a crush on Swearinger, a smaller, slower safety than Lester who was less of a playmaker in college. Also a fact.

I wonder where you get your ideas from........walterfootball?

No I get them from watching football which clearly you don't do enough of.

So because someone starts for Saban that makes them a great player? Better than almost every safety in the draft? Seems like some very very crappy way to draw an opinion.

more athletic? So timed speed always equals game speed? Lester ran a 4.66 Swearinger ran a 4.67, Are you seriously going to tell me their timed speed is not exactly the same. Swearinger plays much faster than he times. Lester doesn't.

Less of a playmaker? Based on what? Swearinger had way way more big hits and passes defended.

2012:

Lester: 4 int, 2 passes defended

Swearinger: 2 int, 7 passes defended

2011:

Lester: 2 int, 3 passes defended

Swearinger: 3 int, 3 passes defended

So how exactly has Lester proved he is a better playmaker in the last two seasons?

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No I get them from watching football which clearly you don't do enough of.

So because someone starts for Saban that makes them a great player? Better than almost every safety in the draft? Seems like some very very crappy way to draw an opinion.

more athletic? So timed speed always equals game speed? Lester ran a 4.66 Swearinger ran a 4.67, Are you seriously going to tell me their timed speed is not exactly the same. Swearinger plays much faster than he times. Lester doesn't.

Less of a playmaker? Based on what? Swearinger had way way more big hits and passes defended.

2012:

Lester: 2 int, 2 passes defended

Swearinger: 2 int, 7 passes defended

2011:

Lester: 2 int, 3 passes defended

Swearinger: 3 int, 3 passes defended

So how exactly has Lester proved he is a better playmaker in the last two seasons?

LOL.

First off, if you're going to quote stats you better be d@mn sure get them right.

Lester had 4 interceptions in 2012, double what you said and double what Swearinger had, and also 3 PBU to put that at even. And a bigger LOL for leaving off 2010, his first year as a starter for Saban. I wrote in all of my posts that he had a down junior year and started his senior year off poorly.

Lester had 52 tackles, 8 interceptions, 4 PBUs, 2 QB hurries, 1 sack, 1.5 TFL, and 1 fumble recovery he came a few yards short of returning for a TD (89 yards).

In 2010, Swearinger had 66 tackles, 1 interception, 5 PBUs, 1 QB hurry, 1 FF, 0 sacks, and 2 TFL.

Advantage = Lester.

And again, I never said he was a great player. Saban runs a tight program, and churns out pro ready players. A 3 year starter at safety who won two national championships and had an All-American campaign = more pro ready than most players in college. He won't be a great player for you, which I said, but you seem to have real trouble reading and have a bone to pick. Which is funny, since your way of arguing is to misconstrue the facts both of the argument itself and of the players by making up BS stats. He can start at SS as a rookie and be a solid player.

But go on Kennesaw, keep making up wrong stats, deflating Lester's stats in 2012 and entirely ignoring his 2010 season because it "helps" your case. I can't think of a more childish move to try and "win" an argument, which is clearly what you view this as, than reading that I said 2010 was his strongest year and he had a down 2011 and half of 2012, and then ignoring 2010 when you try to compare stats.

And even in 2011 and 2012, Lester was a bigger playmaker. He's also bigger and faster and won't be picked on for his height by the ever-growing NFL WR. I get you have a crush on Swearinger, but if you're going to make a case for him try to do it accurately. Otherwise I'm just listening to a kid yelling at his keyboard making stuff up.

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Hey TDB, where are you getting your stats for QB Hurries? Can't find a really accurate site for those right now, but I've never really bothered looking at stats much for most prospects. Have an idea for them though.

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Hey TDB, where are you getting your stats for QB Hurries? Can't find a really accurate site for those right now, but I've never really bothered looking at stats much for most prospects. Have an idea for them though.

CFBStats.com is a really comprehensive site for statistics. The best way to find a particular players stats is to google "Player name cfbstats", then click the first link that the google search yields, then click "player home" at the top left of the screen and you can go through season by season. They also do split stats, which I find useful for the month by month breakdown to see if they improved statistically over the course of the season.

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The Redskins just got Devonte Holloman. Holloman is a great player and I'm not sure how he slipped through the cracks. A projected 3rd rd pick he is a do it all player. He will instantly upgrade special teams, can cover, and can hit. He is a really nice player.

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LOL.

First off, if you're going to quote stats you better be d@mn sure get them right.

Lester had 4 interceptions in 2012, double what you said and double what Swearinger had, and also 3 PBU to put that at even. And a bigger LOL for leaving off 2010, his first year as a starter for Saban. I wrote in all of my posts that he had a down junior year and started his senior year off poorly.

Lester had 52 tackles, 8 interceptions, 4 PBUs, 2 QB hurries, 1 sack, 1.5 TFL, and 1 fumble recovery he came a few yards short of returning for a TD (89 yards).

In 2010, Swearinger had 66 tackles, 1 interception, 5 PBUs, 1 QB hurry, 1 FF, 0 sacks, and 2 TFL.

Advantage = Lester.

And again, I never said he was a great player. Saban runs a tight program, and churns out pro ready players. A 3 year starter at safety who won two national championships and had an All-American campaign = more pro ready than most players in college. He won't be a great player for you, which I said, but you seem to have real trouble reading and have a bone to pick. Which is funny, since your way of arguing is to misconstrue the facts both of the argument itself and of the players by making up BS stats. He can start at SS as a rookie and be a solid player.

But go on Kennesaw, keep making up wrong stats, deflating Lester's stats in 2012 and entirely ignoring his 2010 season because it "helps" your case. I can't think of a more childish move to try and "win" an argument, which is clearly what you view this as, than reading that I said 2010 was his strongest year and he had a down 2011 and half of 2012, and then ignoring 2010 when you try to compare stats.

And even in 2011 and 2012, Lester was a bigger playmaker. He's also bigger and faster and won't be picked on for his height by the ever-growing NFL WR. I get you have a crush on Swearinger, but if you're going to make a case for him try to do it accurately. Otherwise I'm just listening to a kid yelling at his keyboard making stuff up.

So Lester topped out in 2010 and only got worse? That's exactly what you want from a player. haha I'm not going to count stats from 3 years ago because you think they are relevant. Two years ago is plenty far enough back. Lester topped out his ability in college as a sophomore and got progressively worse from there. I absolutely love that you think stats from 2010 are more relevant than stats from 2011 and 2012 because "Lester had a down year in 11 and half of 12 was down." How can you not see how dumb that is?

I would 100% guarantee you that Lester won't start as a rook and Swearinger has a better chance to start.

He is NOT faster. There is no possible way you can say Lester is faster that's absolute drivel. Have you ever seen Swearinger play? Dude is tough he isn't going to get "picked on". To say that he will lets me know you obviously haven't seen him play.

BTW, all my stats are from espn. Where are yours from?

I'm not misconstruing anything. The facts are facts. I did get Lester's int wrong for 2012.

http://espn.go.com/c...3/dj-swearinger

http://espn.go.com/c...5/robert-lester

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In regards to the Lester-Swearinger debate, I like DJ.

Is Denver OTC?

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I have to amend one thing about taking a safety late for the Falcons though ------ Ray Ray Armstrong is absolutely the perfect prospect for us to scoop up in the 6th round.

I had been aiming for Lester for a few rounds because I needed someone who could be plugged in comfortable and perform as a strong safety from Day 1. Lester can be solid, and flash some playmaking ability, but the safety with the highest potential after round 3 is certainly Miami's Ray Ray Armstrong. He absolutely cannot start as a rookie, and probably not as a second year player either because he's been out of the game for a year and was raw in coverage to begin with. But at 6'4 with amazing athleticism and just a good football player, I would love Armstrong backing up DeCoud and Moore.

Wanna talk about a big nickel? Think about either 6'2 DeCoud coming down into the slot with 6'4 Ray Ray going back to play centerfielder free safety. DeCoud was a cornerback and safety at Cal, so he probably has the best man coverage skills in the slot out of the safeties, but Armstrong could also come up to the line of scrimmage an stick his nose in the run game. At 6'4, more importantly, he can line up over and follow the tight end around the formation and stick with him in coverage from the line. 6'6 Jimmy Graham, 6'3 Vernon Davis, etc. ---- all with Ray Ray Armstrong draped on them in coverage.

For the Falcons, he's a better long term fit than Lester or a short stack like Swearinger....really anyone after Shawn Williams is taken. Also, when DeCoud's deal is up in 3 or so years Armstrong should be fully conditioned and ready to take on a starting free safety role entering his prime. 6'4 with his ability is very rare. I also think he needs a few years of coaching and limited playing time until he can really blossom into his potential. If he's put on the field too soon....he could be ruined.

If I signed Dashon Goldson and Phil Loadholt in free agency instead of opting for the superior pass protector (and more expensive) Sebastian Vollmer in free agency, I would have taken Ray Ray Armstrong to stash behind Goldson and Clemons at safety. But like I said, Lester's 3 year starting tenure and 14 interceptions in those 3 seasons with solid run support.....plus Alabama's pedigree as a program and the pro readiness of the players to come out of it under Saban....it tilted my hand to Lester.

Great pick for the Jaguars if they plan on stashing him for two seasons basically. If you're planning on rolling him out at free safety as a rookie......that Madden move will backfire so badly Jags fans will need an extra paper bag for their heads.

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I'd love for Ray Ray to get a chance with us, even if he has to sit for a while...especially if he has to sit for a while. Has a really high ceiling, and learning behind two good to great safeties with such differing skill sets can only help him.

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Regarding Saban and his DB's how about a history of Saban coached DB's. Obviously Saban is a great coach but it's something important to think about that none of his players from the secondary have done very well in the NFL.

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