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Robb4242

2013 Imd Discussion

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Well this about sums up the arizona cardinals draft tell me what you guys think

1. OG Chance Warmack

2. OC/OG Barrett Jones

3. QB Tyler Wilson

4. ILB Kiko Alonso

5. Traded

6. OLB Keith Pough

Looks like a descent draft added matt flynn in FA to compete with wilson.

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Well this about sums up the arizona cardinals draft tell me what you guys think

1. OG Chance Warmack

2. OC/OG Barrett Jones

3. QB Tyler Wilson

4. ILB Kiko Alonso

5. Traded

6. OLB Keith Pough

Looks like a descent draft added matt flynn in FA to compete with wilson.

I love what you've done with the O-line, which has been a Cardinal weakness for several seasons.

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I love what you've done with the O-line, which has been a Cardinal weakness for several seasons.

yeah IMO the interior needed **** near a complete makeover, and felt lucky to be able to snag the two top performers on bamas o line.

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yeah IMO the interior needed **** near a complete makeover, and felt lucky to be able to snag the two top performers on bamas o line.

Now if you could just find a replacement for Levi Brown!

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i believe san francisco is up.. i will be doing the cleveland pick and then sf pick in a few minutes.. i need to finish hardening this server..

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i believe san francisco is up.. i will be doing the cleveland pick and then sf pick in a few minutes.. i need to finish hardening this server..

ph34r.png

Is there Cialis or viagra involved in this process?

laugh.png

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Did people forget about Robert Lester? I need to know, because there is no chance he falls out of the 4th round in the draft and am curious. Then again, there weren't that many teams with safety needs that didn't fill them in FA or earlier in the draft which would allow for a guy to fall.

I have Lester rated as the #5 or #6 SS, depending on if you count Elam as a SS.

#1 = Jon Cyprien

#2 = Matt Elam

#3 = Bacarri Rambo

#4 = TJ McDonald

#5 = Shawn Williams

#6 = Robert Lester

But #4-#6 are also neck and neck and pretty much interchangeable. Lester was pitched as a 1st round talent after his sophomore year when he had 8 interceptions as the free safety to go with 4 PBUs, 52 tackles, 2 QB hurries, 1.5 TFL, 1 sack, and 1 FR.

Lester reminds me a lot of William Moore, from everything from size to range to ball skills to how his college career played out as an All-American leading the league in interceptions to have a "down" senior year and fall out of the 1st round. Lester is 6'2, 210 lbs, runs a 4.62 40, has a 34.5 inch vertical jump, --- he's basically a slightly less athletic Moore. I love William Moore and was banging the table for us to draft him for two years, so don't get me wrong here.

Lester had a "down" junior year and teams stopped testing Bama deep -- when Lester was a sophomore they didn't fear him and it turned out to be a mistake. His junior year when he was teamed up with Mark Barron, teams tried to beat Alabama up the sidelines vs. the corners and in the short passing game because they were BIG but not quick (LBs). He had a slow start to his senior year, but really started to turn things around in the 2nd half finishing with 48 tackles, 4 interceptions, 3.5 TFL, 1.5 sacks, and 3 PBUs.

Not the best athlete, and a natural offseason "faller" -- but he's a **** good football player. I'd love for the Falcons to scoop him up in the 5th. I'd feel much better about our safety depth, and we could certainly find situations to get all 3 talented safeties on the field with Lester in the box.

For the Jets, I'm drafting him as a strong safety that won't go back in a Cover 1 deep zone a ton. Think a poor man's Moore with less expanded role, or Bernard Pollard 2.0. I know Nolan would have some fun moving DeCoud up into the slot CB position (he was a CB also at Cal) and having Lester and Moore back at safety for his big nickel packages, or having Lester up near the LOS as an extra LB basically. Lotta bang for your buck in the 5th round. And to think if he ran the 40 in 4.4 instead of low 4.6 he'd be Round 2 lock.

Was a necessity pick for me because I had a gaping hole at SS -- had a deal in place to get an established stop gap SS, but I'm very comfortable with Lester flying around the box and Clemons back at FS.

Safety will probably be #1 on the Jets needs next year (IMD version), since CB, ILB, OLB, DE, DT, WR, TE, OL, RB and QB are locked up. Maybe OG is #2 to replace Brandon Moore eventually. But taking a safety in the 1st round if needed usually yields the top safety prospect.

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Did people forget about Robert Lester? I need to know, because there is no chance he falls out of the 4th round in the draft and am curious. Then again, there weren't that many teams with safety needs that didn't fill them in FA or earlier in the draft which would allow for a guy to fall.

I have Lester rated as the #5 or #6 SS, depending on if you count Elam as a SS.

#1 = Jon Cyprien

#2 = Matt Elam

#3 = Bacarri Rambo

#4 = TJ McDonald

#5 = Shawn Williams

#6 = Robert Lester

But #4-#6 are also neck and neck and pretty much interchangeable. Lester was pitched as a 1st round talent after his sophomore year when he had 8 interceptions as the free safety to go with 4 PBUs, 52 tackles, 2 QB hurries, 1.5 TFL, 1 sack, and 1 FR.

Lester reminds me a lot of William Moore, from everything from size to range to ball skills to how his college career played out as an All-American leading the league in interceptions to have a "down" senior year and fall out of the 1st round. Lester is 6'2, 210 lbs, runs a 4.62 40, has a 34.5 inch vertical jump, --- he's basically a slightly less athletic Moore. I love William Moore and was banging the table for us to draft him for two years, so don't get me wrong here.

Lester had a "down" junior year and teams stopped testing Bama deep -- when Lester was a sophomore they didn't fear him and it turned out to be a mistake. His junior year when he was teamed up with Mark Barron, teams tried to beat Alabama up the sidelines vs. the corners and in the short passing game because they were BIG but not quick (LBs). He had a slow start to his senior year, but really started to turn things around in the 2nd half finishing with 48 tackles, 4 interceptions, 3.5 TFL, 1.5 sacks, and 3 PBUs.

Not the best athlete, and a natural offseason "faller" -- but he's a **** good football player. I'd love for the Falcons to scoop him up in the 5th. I'd feel much better about our safety depth, and we could certainly find situations to get all 3 talented safeties on the field with Lester in the box.

For the Jets, I'm drafting him as a strong safety that won't go back in a Cover 1 deep zone a ton. Think a poor man's Moore with less expanded role, or Bernard Pollard 2.0. I know Nolan would have some fun moving DeCoud up into the slot CB position (he was a CB also at Cal) and having Lester and Moore back at safety for his big nickel packages, or having Lester up near the LOS as an extra LB basically. Lotta bang for your buck in the 5th round. And to think if he ran the 40 in 4.4 instead of low 4.6 he'd be Round 2 lock.

Was a necessity pick for me because I had a gaping hole at SS -- had a deal in place to get an established stop gap SS, but I'm very comfortable with Lester flying around the box and Clemons back at FS.

Safety will probably be #1 on the Jets needs next year (IMD version), since CB, ILB, OLB, DE, DT, WR, TE, OL, RB and QB are locked up. Maybe OG is #2 to replace Brandon Moore eventually. But taking a safety in the 1st round if needed usually yields the top safety prospect.

some ppl just value certain players differently, lester wasnt even on my draft board.

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some ppl just value certain players differently, lester wasnt even on my draft board.

yeah he was not on my draft board either.. part of it was due to not needing any additional safeties, but the other is he was one of the least impressive safeties i have seen play and i have seen a lot of his games.

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some ppl just value certain players differently, lester wasnt even on my draft board.

That's what I mean though -- he's flying under the radar because he isn't a workout guy so for the IMD if there is no buzz he somehow ends up not on a board? Strange to me, but I get how he wouldn't be a popular IMD pick. In real life it's a much different story.

yeah he was not on my draft board either.. part of it was due to not needing any additional safeties, but the other is he was one of the least impressive safeties i have seen play and i have seen a lot of his games.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the last part. You would have said the same thing about William Moore if you watched him as a senior at Mizzou. There were so many "what happened to William Moore threads" around it was uncomfortable. His sophomore year tape is absolutely balling. He has unnatural ball skills for a bigger safety....I think a good defensive coach (Nolan, or in the IMD case it would be Rex Ryan) would turn him into a great strong safety.

He tackles really well, he brings a thud, he's got better than prototypical safety size at 6'2 (6'3 in cleats) and 210, and he has standard safety speed with a 4.6 40. I do agree he had a down first half of the year, and the game you watched were probably in that 1st half. But he turned it around in a strong fashion in the 2nd half. There was probably a lot of pressure early on to be the next Mark Barron and be a Top 20 pick because he was projected to be prior to the season -- when you're pressing and trying to do too much, you usually end up not doing so well. He got comfortable and just started playing ball and reeled in 4 interceptions in the 2nd half as well as continued his very strong run support.

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yep we will disagree on Lester man.. i saw him in almost every game he was in and while it's a nice 6th round pick with who is on the board, he was not impressive at all to me. you might be impressed with him, but i wasn't. as you said we will agree to disagree on him.

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i was considering simon pretty hard for my next pick. good selection, sacfalcfan.

thanks. yeah i considered him in my previous pick, but a few guys i liked more where there so i skipped him.

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btw i know this is a discussion regarding our draft, but i really hope TD does a good job with our mid draft picks this year.. we have 2 4s and a 3rd.. there is plenty of talent and i hope he does a better job than in years past.. i think a number of guys in this draft have maximized their picks mid draft.. i would like to see the falcons do that this year.

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btw i know this is a discussion regarding our draft, but i really hope TD does a good job with our mid draft picks this year.. we have 2 4s and a 3rd.. there is plenty of talent and i hope he does a better job than in years past.. i think a number of guys in this draft have maximized their picks mid draft.. i would like to see the falcons do that this year.

It's very clear that this is a year where the 3rd and 4th round is going to be great for a RB, TE, and slot WR --- I'm hoping we nail these exact positions in those rounds.

Would love to get Jordan Reed in the 3rd to use as a joker TE -- would walk right into this offense like Hernandez did in New England. Josh Boyce with our 4th round comp pick as a slot WR would also be heavenly. There should be a ton of quality RBs (Lattimore, Davis, Gillislee, Michael, Randle) available in the 3rd/4th area. Would love to end up with the SJax/Lattimore pairing -- makes too much sense. Lattimore would be a free 1st round pick in 2014 basically because if he stayed and had a good year next year that's what he would have been. Instead he'd walk in with a full knowledge of our playbook and chemistry with our offense, an added bonus.

EDIT: I will say this though, and I've written threads dedicated to the topic --- TD has been horrendous in Rounds 3-7. Our typical mid-rounder is someone like Chevis Jackson, Harry Douglas, Dominique Franks, Joe Hawley, Spencer Adkins, Akeem Dent, Lawrence Sidbury --- guys we either stubbornly hold onto for too long once we've realized they're below average at their position (HD, Sidbury, Owens, Franks), cut within two seasons (Jackson, also Middleton), or are just never going to contribute and we immediately look for an upgrade in FA or early in the draft (Hawley, Dent). Rounds 6-7 are like a graveyard. Keith Zinger, Thomas Brown,......eesh.

The depth in this draft perfectly fits our team needs -- for if there ever was a year for TD to crush an entire draft, this would be it.

I would LOVE a full draft of:

1) Alec Ogletree, LB, UGA

2) Cornelius Washington, DE/OLB, UGA

3) Jordan Reed, TE/WR, UF

4a) Montori Hughes, NT, ex-Tenn

4comp) Sanders Commings, CB, UGA

5) Josh Boyce, slot WR/RS, TCU

6) Marcus Lattimore, RB, SC

7) Elvis Fisher, OT, Mizzou

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Lester is...difficult, at least for me, to rate properly. Never was impressed with him, but at the same time, picking where you are now, he's incredible value. Had a late fourth round grade on him myself. Don't much understand the Moore comparison, Lester isn't half the tackler and physical baller that Moore is. Has good height, but that doesn't change his lack of really physical play.

I agree with you about how workout results shouldn't determine draft stock, even though I find it funny coming from you, seeing as most picks you adore as sleepers were really just people who did well at the combine - that said, yeah, I enjoy the combine most because it lets people slip farther in the draft than they usually would. Some things are still really important, though. Vertical and broad jump have given me good results with DEs, and 20 yard shuttles are great predictors for OLBs.

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It's very clear that this is a year where the 3rd and 4th round is going to be great for a RB, TE, and slot WR --- I'm hoping we nail these exact positions in those rounds.

Would love to get Jordan Reed in the 3rd to use as a joker TE -- would walk right into this offense like Hernandez did in New England. Josh Boyce with our 4th round comp pick as a slot WR would also be heavenly. There should be a ton of quality RBs (Lattimore, Davis, Gillislee, Michael, Randle) available in the 3rd/4th area. Would love to end up with the SJax/Lattimore pairing -- makes too much sense. Lattimore would be a free 1st round pick in 2014 basically because if he stayed and had a good year next year that's what he would have been. Instead he'd walk in with a full knowledge of our playbook and chemistry with our offense, an added bonus.

EDIT: I will say this though, and I've written threads dedicated to the topic --- TD has been horrendous in Rounds 3-7. Our typical mid-rounder is someone like Chevis Jackson, Harry Douglas, Dominique Franks, Joe Hawley, Spencer Adkins, Akeem Dent, Lawrence Sidbury --- guys we either stubbornly hold onto for too long once we've realized they're below average at their position (HD, Sidbury, Owens, Franks), cut within two seasons (Jackson, also Middleton), or are just never going to contribute and we immediately look for an upgrade in FA or early in the draft (Hawley, Dent). Rounds 6-7 are like a graveyard. Keith Zinger, Thomas Brown,......eesh.

The depth in this draft perfectly fits our team needs -- for if there ever was a year for TD to crush an entire draft, this would be it.

I would LOVE a full draft of:

1) Alec Ogletree, LB, UGA

2) Cornelius Washington, DE/OLB, UGA

3) Jordan Reed, TE/WR, UF

4a) Montori Hughes, NT, ex-Tenn

4comp) Sanders Commings, CB, UGA

5) Josh Boyce, slot WR/RS, TCU

6) Marcus Lattimore, RB, SC

7) Elvis Fisher, OT, Mizzou

I'm a huge UGA fan, but that's too much UGA for me. That entire defense this year was uber talented, but half of them had their heads up their collective arses most of the season looking towards the money at the next level IMO. I expect to see several flameouts (Ogletree) at the NFL level.

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Lester is...difficult, at least for me, to rate properly. Never was impressed with him, but at the same time, picking where you are now, he's incredible value. Had a late fourth round grade on him myself. Don't much understand the Moore comparison, Lester isn't half the tackler and physical baller that Moore is. Has good height, but that doesn't change his lack of really physical play.

I agree with you about how workout results shouldn't determine draft stock, even though I find it funny coming from you, seeing as most picks you adore as sleepers were really just people who did well at the combine - that said, yeah, I enjoy the combine most because it lets people slip farther in the draft than they usually would. Some things are still really important, though. Vertical and broad jump have given me good results with DEs, and 20 yard shuttles are great predictors for OLBs.

Lester is a physical player, I really don't know where this idea is coming from. You're comparing William Moore, the current Atlanta Falcon, and not William Moore the "down" year senior out of Missouri to Robert Lester. That's an unfair comparison, because if Lester had several years of coaching and training in the league I'd like to think he'd be a much better strong safety than what he put on tape as a senior.

To be honest I've been ignoring 95% of your posts over the last few days, especially in the Ogletree thread but there's far off base, but these kind of comments are asinine.

Most picks I adore as sleepers were people that did well at the combine? Trust in that it's coincidence that Washington and Davis did well at the combine, and every player that I like is based on their ability on the field not in shorts. The only player I re-examined because of the combine was Washington, because on tape this last year he didn't really do anything as a 3-4 DE or so it appeared. Then you go back and actually watch when they used him as a 4-3 DE or a 3-4 OLB, and he flashed dominance. When asked to play 3-4 DE for no apparent reason other than they had no one else to do it, he held the point really well and allowed the OLBs to freely get to the ball carriers and into the backfield. It's not a glorious job, and some of the best 3-4 DEs in the NFL simply do that and rack up no stats like Justin Smith in San Fran. 3-4 DEs mostly get their recognition based on the pass rusher they are freeing up. Odd that Jarvis Jones went off this year and no one wanted to give credit to the 3-4 DEs freeing him up -- as is the way of college football.

If you go back to two seasons' ago tape, you'll see a 4-3 D mostly and Washington dominate OTs. He has a rare burst that he translates into equally rare power and it drives OTs and OGs directly into the backfield. I never saw anyone all year give Chance Warmack any trouble on a single snap, until you watch Washington line up over him in sub-sets as a DT and he destroyed Warmack. Literally, several yards into the backfield. Washington is raw, because he's moved around from position to position and never really had time to be coached up an refine a skill set at one spot. He also played far out of position next year and not a single team in the NFL would ask him to play 3-4 DE as his normal position. If he lands in a 4-3 D, or as a strongside OLB like Adalius Thomas in a 3-4, he can be a scary rusher. And people saying he isn't fluid enough, it's ridiculous. You need fluidity to be a 4-3 OLB, not a 3-4 OLB and he's plenty fluid as it is. Mario Williams, Terrell Suggs, Anthony Spencer, etc. are all guys who were DEs and not "fluid" coming out of college and have become some of the game's best 3-4 OLBs because you mainly just rush the passer with a step's head start. With his impressive ability to turn speed into insane power, Washington could be on helluva 3-4 OLB.

More, separate objective analysis of Cornelius as a rusher and not a 3-4 DE:

http://www.battleredblog.com/2013/2/28/4039104/scouting-report-cornelius-washington

I have two questions for the Georgia coaching staff: where was this guy all year, and why weren't you using him more often? I have never seen that kind of explosion out of a 265 pound man before. His first step was insane, and once he got under a blocker's pads on a bull rush, it was over. Nobody could anchor against him if he got a half decent start. He’s the only player I've ever seen go one-on-one with Chance Warmack and literally jack him back seven yards into the quarterback. That doesn't happen to Warmack against behemoths like John Jenkins, let alone against someone who is 50 pounds his junior. So what exactly happened between then and now? When comparing his Alabama tape to his earlier tapes, I noticed one little tweak that made all the difference – stance.

Early in the year, Washington’s three-point stance was very top heavy and unbalanced. His feet were too close together and his back was slightly arched rather than flattened out. He looked to be trying to balance his weight over his hips and feet rather than leaning hard into his hands and letting his leg muscles focus on getting an explosive first step. In the Bama game, however, his feet were staggered and his shoulders were further forward. His weight was on his hands and he looked much more "streamlined." When he uncoiled out of this newer, more energy efficient stance, it was one of the most awesome physical displays of power I have seen so far. His explosiveness off the snap is difficult to prepare for, and the ensuing strength of his bull rush as he pumps his legs deeper and deeper into the pocket is something few, if any, tackles can handle over the course of an entire game. He’s exhausting to deal with, and when his pad level is low enough, he’s almost unblockable. Most of the game Alabama’s offensive line merely slowed his bull rush down rather than outright stop it, and considering Bama’s offensive line is the litmus test that all defenders are judged by, I would say that's pretty high praise.

Encouraged by the Bama tape, I put on the Georgia-Nebraska bowl game and saw the exact same eye-popping explosion. The Bulldogs lined him up all over the field as a stand-up linebacker in 3-4 looks, defensive end in both 3-4 and 4-3 looks, and as a defensive tackle in obvious passing situations. Despite being next to big pocket pushers like Jenkins and Geathers, it was not uncommon to see Washington get the most push out of anybody. Off the edge, his excellent burst and inhuman speed showed itself as he raced tackles around the pocket. He didn't put up many numbers this season due to limited playing time as a rotational player and not really learning how to use his body until the end of the season, but he definitely was just as hard to handle as the rest of his vaunted team mates.

Washington was just as dominant in the Senior Bowl where he was finally utilized correctly and got the playing time he deserved. He might have only gotten one sack on the day as his only stat contribution, but he was manhandling tackles the entire game. They don’t record pressures in the Senior Bowl, but he got a lot. Justin Pugh and Ricky Wagner couldn't stop his bull rush; really, the only guy who was able to handle him was Kyle Long (sadly, they only got few snaps against one another). His first step explosion, speed, and power were on full display yet again.

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I'm a huge UGA fan, but that's too much UGA for me. That entire defense this year was uber talented, but half of them had their heads up their collective arses most of the season looking towards the money at the next level IMO. I expect to see several flameouts (Ogletree) at the NFL level.

I thought myself a little too much UGA, but Ogletree, Washington, and Commings would be welcome additions to our defense for certain. I won't go in on Washington again, and I've heard that some teams have given Commings 2nd round grades for his physicality and athleticism, but I really strongly disagree with you on Ogletree's prospects. I will say he is still raw because he needs coaching -- UGA just stuck him at LB from safety and asked him to chase down the ball which he did. He didn't get proper coaching and training in taking on linemen, and just found his way around them most of the time. It's the same scenario that the Bears took on when they drafted Urlacher in the 1st round out of New Mexico, where he was a safety. He was an insane athlete with a nose for the football and they felt their coaches could take his talents and make him into a great LB who could cover. Ogletree has even more impressive size than Urlacher with similar athleticism and arguably better coverage ability as incoming rookies.......I would trust Nolan to turn him into an animal over a season or two. Immediately he'd still be a starter inside a 3-4 or as a 4-3 SLB over a tight end. But in Year 3 he should be a dominant NFL player with the right coaching and scheme.

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Dude, I've tried to be accommodating and such, but right now you're not even making sense. Just because you say it doesn't make it true. Sell me on Lester. Give me some game tape that will make me think he's a special player. I'm not just talking about this year; I wasn't sold on him last year either. Sell me, though. I've never refused to give a player a chance. Heck, if you don't have a particular game, just give me a Youtube video of the game like people always post snapshots of here. Just not a highlight tape...that's flat out insulting.

While we're at it, sell me on Washington too. I love Commings late, and Ogletree has enough potential that he's not worth arguing about. Don't see anything in Lester though, and Washington has almost no good game tape, even last year.

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While we're at it, sell me on Washington too.

I second that statement. CornWash has had one game where he lived up to his athletic potential, and he got a DUI after that game. He then proceeded to bash UGA fans.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you aren't old enough to remember Mike Mamula.

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