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Just A Thought, For Those Of You That Believe The Real Refs Coming Back Brings Bias.


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So, I'm interested in hearing what everyone thinks about this since a lot of members have expressed their belief that the refs coming back is good news for GB, NE, etc.

In my opinion, the reason those usual teams are penalized less is because they may just have a good team discipline, but so do we. A subsequent result might be that they win more games, and when paired with the idea that Atlanta is way under-covered by major media, creates an illusion of bias against us. Let's look at the numbers for NE, GB, and ATL:

2012 (Penalties Per Game)

(3 wins) Atlanta- 4.0 (Best in NFL, albeit 3 games into a season, with replacement refs)

(1 win) New England- 7.0 (#18)

(1 win) Green Bay- 8.0 (#26)

2011

(10 wins) Atlanta- 5.6 (#9)

(13 wins) New England- 5.0 (#4)

(15 wins) Green Bay- 4.7 (Best in NFL)

2010

(13 wins) Atlanta- 3.8 (Best in NFL)

(14 wins) New England- 5.2 (#8)

(10 wins) Green Bay- 5.0 (#5)

2009

(9 wins) Atlanta- 4.9 (#4)

(10 wins) New England- 5.1 (#6)

(11 wins) Green Bay- 7.4 (Dead Last)

2008

(11 Wins) Atlanta- 4.5 (#4)

(10 wins) New England- 3.6 (Best in NFL)

(11 wins) Green Bay- 6.9 (#30)

You'll notice we finish in the top 5 for least penalties consistently, and once in top 10, under Smitty's regime. Now as Falcons fans I know we all love to watch our games with great detail but it seems possible our love for our team and the fact that we see all the games makes us think there is a bias when there isn't. In reality, even if there was it means we are beneficiaries too. I agree GB and NE has way more this year than in year's past, but again, if there is a bias I don't think we feel the effects of it.

Anyway, my idea is that it's really about who your coach is and how well they instill discipline. Smith, McCarthy, and Belichick are all good at that and I think it consistently shows from year to year. It isn't bias, these are just well coached football teams. Thoughts?

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It's not how many - it's when and against who. It's when those phantom calls come after a first down that forces you to punt or after a stop that gives them the first down. It's all the extra ground in spotting for certain teams that gives them a first down when your defense busted their butts to get them before they crossed the line - and vice versa - the short spots that keep you from a first down.

It's the inconsistency in the calls. Roughing Tom Brady when Jamaal Anderson didn't touch him - but Ty Warren body slams Ryan well after the fall is thrown - to the point Ryan is fighting him coming up - and no call.

It's the obvious bias - the little things - not just penalties.

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You are showing the outcome of possible bias, ie the fact that those teams weren't penalized when they should have been. GB and NE I wouldn't speak for, but I know for a fact that the Saints have gotten the benefit of calls against us that were extremely biased: ghost screen call, launching on Lofton but not on Palmer hit, holding non-calls, phantom PI on Grimes INT in 2009, etc.

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It's not how many - it's when and against who. It's when those phantom calls come after a first down that forces you to punt or after a stop that gives them the first down. It's all the extra ground in spotting for certain teams that gives them a first down when your defense busted their butts to get them before they crossed the line - and vice versa - the short spots that keep you from a first down.

It's the inconsistency in the calls. Roughing Tom Brady when Jamaal Anderson didn't touch him - but Ty Warren body slams Ryan well after the fall is thrown - to the point Ryan is fighting him coming up - and no call.

It's the obvious bias - the little things - not just penalties.

And then we have to consider if in fact that is bias. I recall Kelvin's clear non-INT being against the Eagles, but we got that. I forget the game, but Tony kept a drive alive at a critical point by falling on a ball --and it definitely did hit the ground. The same bias that could have ruled out Jenkin's catch vs the Ravens. I would argue we see bad calls all the time, as Falcons fans we notice the ones that don't go in our favor more, but that doesn't mean that all teams don't face them.

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You are showing the outcome of possible bias, ie the fact that those teams weren't penalized when they should have been. GB and NE I wouldn't speak for, but I know for a fact that the Saints have gotten the benefit of calls against us that were extremely biased: ghost screen call, launching on Lofton but not on Palmer hit, holding non-calls, phantom PI on Grimes INT in 2009, etc.

This was my fault, if I have time later I will, but I should have posted the NO penalties as well. What I found was that NO does not get away with as much as we think. They are consistently (every year in this time period) more penalized than ATL, NE, and GB, with no exception.

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Nice Post! But to see if refs are Biased against Falcons or Biased for NE,NO or GB you need something like this.

1. How many calls like holding calls were never called against NE,NO and GB.

2. How many Calls were missed against ATL,Ryan takes a beating but no flag. Defender barely touches Brady or Brees a flag is thrown.

3. How many calls were never called against NE.NO and GB which would extended drives of other teams. We remember that refs apologized for missing multiple calls in NFC Championship game including an interception of Favre late in the 4th Quarter in redone. Vikings would have won if they could have called back interception.

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Do you mean Roddy's catch?

Kind of like the game against the Patriots in 2009 - when they called Michael Jenkins for OPI - when he was clearly hand battling with the defender - who was hand battling with him. Or the fact that Randy Moss was pushing off all game - but didn't get called?

Or like the fumble that Finneran supposedly had in the game in San Diego - when the ball went right through his hands - and hit the turf - and they ran it in for a touchdown - and the ref moved in front of Ryan - who knocked him out of the way - shortly after they called a fumble on Turner when replay showed he was down - and yet both plays were reviewed and upheld? Then the ref joked about it in an interview later - hey he has to live there? Turns out the entire crew grew up in San Diego - live there now - coach high school there - and Mike Carey - the head official even played some ball there?

Or the absolute obvious muggings on Abraham by the Saints over the past few years - never called? Or the fact that Vilma can knock Roddy down on his route so they can have a nice pick 6?

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This is the most egregious example of bad officiating in all of our recent memories. And yet, it is recognized as such. Have you seen any other ESPN segments saying the same thing? I 100% agree with you, TERRIBLE officiating, but is it a consistent enough trend to call it a bias?

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This was my fault, if I have time later I will, but I should have posted the NO penalties as well. What I found was that NO does not get away with as much as we think. They are consistently (every year in this time period) more penalized than ATL, NE, and GB, with no exception.

Again, posting how many times a team was penalized has nothing to do with how many times a team should have been penalized.

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Nice Post! But to see if refs are Biased against Falcons or Biased for NE,NO or GB you need something like this.

1. How many calls like holding calls were never called against NE,NO and GB.

2. How many Calls were missed against ATL,Ryan takes a beating but no flag. Defender barely touches Brady or Brees a flag is thrown.

3. How many calls were never called against NE.NO and GB which would extended drives of other teams. We remember that refs apologized for missing multiple calls in NFC Championship game including an interception of Favre late in the 4th Quarter in redone. Vikings would have won if they could have called back interception.

Ha, I would love to, but data doesn't exist for most of those parameters. Again, NFC championship...horrid.

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Again, posting how many times a team was penalized has nothing to do with how many times a team should have been penalized.

That's true to some extent, but at the same time it does show a trend you can infer off of. At best we can eye ball test what you are talking about, and that's fine I understand because I do it too, but strictly by the numbers we would be suggesting NO is penalized more than the mentioned teams across the board except when in specific situations where it matters, then they aren't. I really have felt like I have seen NO bias before, but that might be a bit much for me to suggest.

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This is the most egregious example of bad officiating in all of our recent memories. And yet, it is recognized as such. Have you seen any other ESPN segments saying the same thing? I 100% agree with you, TERRIBLE officiating, but is it a consistent enough trend to call it a bias?

Want some more?

What about Seattle's Super Bowl game - Official comes out 4 years later and admits it. Didn't help.

Bottom line - not all officials are biased - but some are - and it seems when there is a certain team that's "supposed" to do well - they do well - and the Officiating goes their way. I don't know if it's just a mirage and some teams are "blessed" some years - but it's been a source of contention among fans for years.

The difference is - there has never been this much attention drawn to the regular refs - as their was in that Green Bay game. The media and the teams had an agenda - they wanted those refs back.

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Want some more? What about Seattle's Super Bowl game - Official comes out 4 years later and admits it. Didn't help. Bottom line - not all officials are biased - but some are - and it seems when there is a certain team that's "supposed" to do well - they do well - and the Officiating goes their way. I don't know if it's just a mirage and some teams are "blessed" some years - but it's been a source of contention among fans for years. The difference is - there has never been this much attention drawn to the regular refs - as their was in that Green Bay game. The media and the teams had an agenda - they wanted those refs back.

2001 AFC Play off game gifted to the trailing Patriots and Oakland players went crazy over it. That call was as bad as the one against GB last week.

2006 SB like you said.

2009 AFC and NFC Championship games. Especially NO shouldn't have won that game.

Edited by falcons007
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Want some more?

What about Seattle's Super Bowl game - Official comes out 4 years later and admits it. Didn't help.

Bottom line - not all officials are biased - but some are - and it seems when there is a certain team that's "supposed" to do well - they do well - and the Officiating goes their way. I don't know if it's just a mirage and some teams are "blessed" some years - but it's been a source of contention among fans for years.

The difference is - there has never been this much attention drawn to the regular refs - as their was in that Green Bay game. The media and the teams had an agenda - they wanted those refs back.

Ha, agreed, but then you have to wonder, why bias? Is it not possible some games are terribly officiated and some are not. Human errors noticed in several instances in the same game? I mean this guys are checked for possible sources of bias beforehand, and by that standard it's more likely to run into a biased replacement ref than a real one. I see how what you're saying is a possibility, but is it the most likely one? I am sure some percentage of games have had a biased official, but I feel that is in the minority. Most of the times we just see mistakes.

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Good post but one little flaw in there. When those other teams NE, GB etc finish in the top 10 they go to the Super Bowl.

Well, you'll notice that the number of wins are the same typically between the three. It is possible being older teams they are better playoff performers. The idea is that it didn't impact win counts.

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Ha, agreed, but then you have to wonder, why bias? Is it not possible some games are terribly officiated and some are not. Human errors noticed in several instances in the same game? I mean this guys are checked for possible sources of bias beforehand, and by that standard it's more likely to run into a biased replacement ref than a real one. I see how what you're saying is a possibility, but is it the most likely one? I am sure some percentage of games have had a biased official, but I feel that is in the minority. Most of the times we just see mistakes.

I can bet you will see Tom Brady,Aaron Rodgers and Drew brees will become elite again in next 2-3 weeks. The bias will be obvious but media will conveniently ignore it.

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2001 AFC Play off game gifted to the trailing Patriots and Oakland players went crazy over it. That call was as bad as the one against GB last week.

2006 SB like you said.

2009 AFC and NFC Championship games. Especially NO shouldn't have won that game.

See, I agree with you guys, but I am just saying it's bad officiating, not a present bias. I mean, it's not like we are letting normal fans ref our games. Every team has cases of biases for them and against them, it may just be perception that some have it more than others.

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Well, you'll notice that the number of wins are the same typically between the three. It is possible being older teams they are better playoff performers. The idea is that it didn't impact win counts.

Sure NO was better playoff team in NFC Championship game in 2009 when the refs stole a win from Vikings. And also NO knocked off Kurt Warner in Divisional playoffs by blowing his head and there was not even a flag for that.

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See, I agree with you guys, but I am just saying it's bad officiating, not a present bias. I mean, it's not like we are letting normal fans ref our games. Every team has cases of biases for them and against them, it may just be perception that some have it more than others.

Do you watch the saints games? There are lot of holding calls which are not called on Aints, if other teams do the same they are called.

I believe this yr if there is any bias it wont be this yr bc the real refs will def be heavily scrutinized

I hope so, but its unlikely that media will do it.

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