Why Can't Falcons Fans Be Realists?

[Scott Carasik]

Here's my question that I had last night when talking with Ryan and Pudge at FalcFans. Why can't Falcons fans be realistic?

The example was Ray Edwards.

Now, I said for his run stuffing ability and that he'll get 6-7 sacks a year, Edwards was a top 25 DE and worth the middle tier contract we gave him... they nodded and agreed because they saw it was realistic.

Why can't Falcons fans just realize that while these players are good. not all of them are great. But at the same time, they aren't Garbage either.

Is Matt Ryan a top 5 QB in the NFL? no.

But is he top 10? of course.

Is he a good leader and won at the best % in franchise history? yes.

Does he have issues throwing the deep ball? of course, but he needs to work on it.

Why can't more Falcons fans just be realistic and look at things like that? instead of the mindset of "if he's not a pro-bowl player, he's not good."

Earth to Falcons Fans, you can't afford 10 pro-bowl players in todays NFL, let alone the 22 people want unless these guys tale massive pay cuts, something they just won't do.

/endrant.

[muskokas finest ©]

Is Matt Ryan a top 5 QB in the NFL? no.

But is he top 10? of course.

Is he a good leader and won at the best % in franchise history? yes.

Does he have issues throwing the deep ball? of course, but he needs to work on it.

I don't think anybody will realistically deny that. The room for hot debate comes in whether or not that will be enough, given the sheer amounts of quality QBs ability ahead of Ryan and the talent coming up from behind. Also the issue of the high salary Matt is getting, relative to other QBs at that level and the limitations it places on assembling talent under the cap, especially along the O-line. Thirdly the mistaken presumption that there is only one significant gap in talent between the top QBs and the 10th best QB, when there is probably three tiers of difference in capability/ability.

[hjerry]

This is true of every fanbase. In all fanbases there will be those who like everyone, those who hate everyone, and prescious few that are in between. Don't sweat it.

[Scott Carasik]

I don't think anybody will realistically deny that. The room for hot debate comes in whether or not that will be enough, given the sheer amounts of quality QBs ability ahead of Ryan and the talent coming up from behind. Also the issue of the high salary Matt is getting, relative to other QBs at that level and the limitations it places on assembling talent under the cap, especially along the O-line. Thirdly the mistaken presumption that there is only one significant gap in talent between the top QBs and the 10th best QB, when there is probably three tiers of difference in capability/ability.

If Trent Dilfer can win a super bowl, any QB can. His "High Salary" isn't even in the top 15 for his position. The Falcons also started this offseason with 25M under the cap and were able to get a bunch of people to stay with the team and still stayed under the cap. There is more than enough room under the cap in future years to build with Ryan receiving a 15-16M/year deal. Especially with how amazing the new rookie cap is.

Also, offensive line talent is very easy to find in the draft and doesn't need to be huge monetary investments. just look at the Pats.

And are there really 3 tiers of talent between #1 and #10? Idk about that.

Tier 1 - Brees, Brady, Rodgers

Tier 2 - Peyton (til he proves otherwise), Eli, Stafford

Tier 3 - Rivers, Roethlisberger, Schaub, Ryan

[Peyton]

I think people just don't find being realistic all that much fun.

[Guest Gritz]

I think it's just the nature of being a sports fan. If you follow and have loyalty for a specific team you want every guy on that team to be the best. Of course it isn't possible or realistic, but I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing.

Being a Falcon fan as long as I have been though....whew!, man, it's not for sissies. Everyone knows the history of this team.....and while it's obvious we have reached a certain level of achievement and relevance we still haven't gotten the ultimate win or hoisted ourselves up to that elite level.

[IceFalcon]

I think everyone is realistic about Ryan.

It just gets annoying about some poster's perception that he is a bad QB, and we should be looking for a new one.

We are lucky to have him.

[toldyallgoham]

Ray Edwards is garbage . Even if he gets 6-7 sacks our GM should have been able to draft a DE then could have been able to find that type of production in draft past 4 years . I can name 30 DEs that have done that over past 4 years . Ray Edwards is also not a top 25 DE

As for Ryan he might not even be a top 10 QB

Rodgers

Brady

Brees

Peyton

Eli

Big Ben

Phillip Rivers

Cam Newton - Passed for 4k yards took Ryan 4 years also Cam 35 total tds

Tony Romo - check stats from last year

Stafford

So its your opinion Ryan is a top 10 there are many out there that feel he might not be

[Guest Gritz]

So its your opinion Ryan is a top 10 there are many out there that feel he might not be

Yeah, we know....but his opinion is just as valid as anyone else's.

The different methods of evaluating NFL quarterbacks are as numerous as the stars in a night sky.

[sandiegofalcon]

If Trent Dilfer can win a super bowl, any QB can. His "High Salary" isn't even in the top 15 for his position. The Falcons also started this offseason with 25M under the cap and were able to get a bunch of people to stay with the team and still stayed under the cap. There is more than enough room under the cap in future years to build with Ryan receiving a 15-16M/year deal. Especially with how amazing the new rookie cap is.

Also, offensive line talent is very easy to find in the draft and doesn't need to be huge monetary investments. just look at the Pats.

And are there really 3 tiers of talent between #1 and #10? Idk about that.

Tier 1 - Brees, Brady, Rodgers

Tier 2 - Peyton (til he proves otherwise), Eli, Stafford

Tier 3 - Rivers, Roethlisberger, Schaub, Ryan

How do you place Stafford ahead of Ryan with one good season lobbing it up to the league's best? If you're gonna do that you may as well include Newton, Dalton. Stafford is tier 3, and Roeth probably tier 2.

[paulitik]

I get what you're saying but, If I were realistic I'd spend far less time obsessing about something I have absolutely no control over. At 38 it's a little late for me to suit up. If you want to get technical "Fan", or "Fanatic" and "realist" is an oxymoron.

Sports fanhood is one of the few things in life where being an irrational, prejudiced a-hole is perfectly acceptable and encouraged. Ain't a **** thing wrong with being a little homeristic. There isn't enough of that around here or in Atlanta. That's why our fanbase has the rep it does.

[IceFalcon]

There are 12 playoff spots each year.

So you would think, the top 12 QB's would get their teams into the playoffs each year. Well, thats not exactly reality.

What is reality, is our top 12 QB has gotten us each year he's been healthy, and got a huge monkey off our back the one year he wasn't.

I'd call that progress.

He's still young.. Yes he has things to work out. Not being scared in the pocket (but honestly, ALL QB's start getting timid in the pocket when your getting crushed all game), getting better with the Deep ball (both with Trajectory, and timing).

Too me, those two things are the things he needs to improve on, which is a pretty short list.

Matt Ryan is his own breed, so let's let him mature into what he is, Matt Ryan. Not Peyton Manning, or Drew Brees, or Tom Brady, or anybody else.

[Peyton]

I mean, who cares, more power to them.

I am known as one of the most "real" posters on the board, for not getting carried away with good vibes, but honestly, I wish I were one of those people. It seems like more fun. It's just that by my nature, I'm not anymore.

If someone thinks that Matt Ryan is the best QB in the history of the NFL, Quizz is the next Ladanian Tomlinson, and Massoqoui is a Demarcus Ware clone, what harm does it really do to anybody?

[jbrinson]

Ray Edwards is garbage . Even if he gets 6-7 sacks our GM should have been able to draft a DE then could have been able to find that type of production in draft past 4 years . I can name 30 DEs that have done that over past 4 years . Ray Edwards is also not a top 25 DE

As for Ryan he might not even be a top 10 QB

Rodgers

Brady

Brees

Peyton

Eli

Big Ben

Phillip Rivers

Cam Newton - Passed for 4k yards took Ryan 4 years also Cam 35 total tds

Tony Romo - check stats from last year

Stafford

So its your opinion Ryan is a top 10 there are many out there that feel he might not be

This was Staffords best year and his stats are expected when you're the #1 pick throwing to the best WR in the league. Philip Rivers was horrible last year and didn't even make the playoffs. Cam only won 6 games. Tony Romo cost his team numerous games and didn't make the playoffs. If Matt and the falcons can make one a run and win the superbowl people will count him as an elite QB.

[FalcoChicquera]

Also, offensive line talent is very easy to find in the draft and doesn't need to be huge monetary investments. just look at the Pats.

Only 2 1st round picks and a 2nd rounder on that offensive line.

Used 14 picks (average of 2 a year) on the OL since 2005.

But of course it's dead easy to find OL...

[muskokas finest ©]

If Trent Dilfer can win a super bowl, any QB can. His "High Salary" isn't even in the top 15 for his position. The Falcons also started this offseason with 25M under the cap and were able to get a bunch of people to stay with the team and still stayed under the cap. There is more than enough room under the cap in future years to build with Ryan receiving a 15-16M/year deal. Especially with how amazing the new rookie cap is.

Also, offensive line talent is very easy to find in the draft and doesn't need to be huge monetary investments. just look at the Pats.

And are there really 3 tiers of talent between #1 and #10? Idk about that.

Tier 1 - Brees, Brady, Rodgers

Tier 2 - Peyton (til he proves otherwise), Eli, Stafford

Tier 3 - Rivers, Roethlisberger, Schaub, Ryan

Ryan's salary >>>>Rivers, Romo, Schaub. Significantly more than senior QBs in similar situations. The cap isn't growing in the next few years and talented QBs coming into the league aren't getting nearly the deals that Ryan and Bradford got.

If offensive line is so easy to find in the draft, how come TD hasn't found it? The 2 "core" O-line players you identify in another thread are holdovers from the McKay regime.

Tier 1 - Brees, Brady, Peyton, Rodgers - Proven Elite

Tier 2 - Big Ben, Eli - Proven winners

Tier 3 - Rivers, Stafford - Explosive, but not consistent winners

Tier 4 - Romo, Schaub, Ryan, Vick etc. 3 tiers down

[FalcoChicquera]

As to your more general point, I would agree that having 10 or so core players playing at a pro bowl level is all you can afford.

Ryan, White, Turner, Gonzalez, Jones, Clabo, Blalock, Weatherspoon, Abraham, Grimes, Samuel, Robinson is 12.

They are all core players in terms of contract or draft pick investment. Ryan of course is both (high draft pick and significant contract).

But you also need role players to step up and play above that level (unless you get all-pro play from your stars) - see Brian Waters for the Pats, Carlos Rogers / Navarro Bowman for the 49ers, Webb / Torrey Smith for the Ravens, Cruz / Ballard for the Giants. Few of our role players made that standard in 2011 - whereas in 2010 guys like Babineaux, McClure, Biermann all contributed more than expected.

[PokerSteve]

My question is why can't people who supposedly come into TATF to discuss the Falcons instead come in here and talk crap about Falcon fans? The fans are entitled to their opinions, regardless of whether other pinhead, anal-retentive, knee-jerk wangers object to those opinions. You people are so interested in the team, yet your only inspiration for a post is to denigrate what some other Falcon fans say or think? Pathetic and sad.

Edited June 5, 2012 by PokerSteve

[toldyallgoham]

This was Staffords best year and his stats are expected when you're the #1 pick throwing to the best WR in the league. Philip Rivers was horrible last year and didn't even make the playoffs. Cam only won 6 games. Tony Romo cost his team numerous games and didn't make the playoffs. If Matt and the falcons can make one a run and win the superbowl people will count him as an elite QB.

This is exactly what I mean about our fan base .. Staffords stats are expected cause he has best wr in game

and Ryan has what nothing ? Roddy White 5th best wr in league a beast number 2 in Julio

and a HOF TE in Tony G

so we shouldnt expect Ryan to throw for 4k and 29 tds lol

[muskokas finest ©]

This was Staffords best year and his stats are expected when you're the #1 pick throwing to the best WR in the league. Philip Rivers was horrible last year and didn't even make the playoffs. Cam only won 6 games. Tony Romo cost his team numerous games and didn't make the playoffs. If Matt and the falcons can make one a run and win the superbowl people will count him as an elite QB.

There are not a lot of 5000 yards in a season QBs walking around. Check out the huge bump in Calvin Johnson's stats when he had a full year of Matt Stafford. It's also not easy to be productive at QB with no threat of a running game, a defense that forces you into passing early and often, or lacking legitimate secondary receiving threats.

[toldyallgoham]

also for Rivers down year be still passed for more yards and only 2 less tds then Ryan which is arguably his best year stats wise . Makes you think .. Who was Rivers throwing to VJ and Gates who was hurt

[FalcoChicquera]

There are not a lot of 5000 yards in a season QBs walking around. Check out the huge bump in Calvin Johnson's stats when he had a full year of Matt Stafford. It's also not easy to be productive at QB with no threat of a running game, a defense that forces you into passing early and often, or lacking legitimate secondary receiving threats.

I disagree that Stafford didn't have secondary receiving options - Brandon Pettigrew, Tony Scheffler, Nate Burleson and Titus Young are a reasonable unit (although probably not as strong as the Packers or Cowboys units)

The other two points are valid though.

[O-TownFalcon]

This is exactly what I mean about our fan base .. Staffords stats are expected cause he has best wr in game

and Ryan has what nothing ? Roddy White 5th best wr in league a beast number 2 in Julio

and a HOF TE in Tony G

so we shouldnt expect Ryan to throw for 4k and 29 tds lol

That's a good point. I'm interested to see what a new coordinator brings to the table.

Ryan was in the Top 10 in both yards and TDs last year. Tied for 6th in TDs with Eli.

[A Pimp Named Slickback™]

This is exactly what I mean about our fan base .. Staffords stats are expected cause he has best wr in game

and Ryan has what nothing ? Roddy White 5th best wr in league a beast number 2 in Julio

and a HOF TE in Tony G

so we shouldnt expect Ryan to throw for 4k and 29 tds lol

I would if he was playing in the type of system that allowed it for 4 seasons.

[ukfalc]

To be fair, the majority of people don't see things in such black and white terms. They see the huge greay area between the 2 extremes and know that the truth lies somewhere between the 2.

Extreme views, basically come down to a total lack of intelligence and perspective. Some people think that becasue they can win the SB on the rookie level on madden, that it qualifies them to cricisise a GM/Coach/Player who can't do likewise in real life. They demand instant success, and unrealstic levels of success from people at every level of the organisation.

The reality, is that the NFL is the most competitive sports league on the Planet. A league with 32 teams all of whom are desparate to win, playing under a structure and rules (from the draft and salary cap, down to the strict limits on organised off-season acivities and padded practices etc) that give every team an equal chance of success. In a league of parity, each year, you have a 6 in 16 chance of making the playoffs, a 3 in 16 chance of progressing beyond your first playoff game, a 1 in 4 chance of winning your division, a 1 in 16 chance of winning the conference title and a 1 in 32 chance of winning the SB. Against thsoe odds, demanding instant super bowl success is foolish.

The other thing with football fans, is that many have a very short term outlook. If the team has a hole they want to sign the biggest name available to fill it, without seeing the bigger picture. We see this lack of perspective every off season, with the large volume of threads calling for the team to sign that years big name FA or move up in the draft for a top 5 prospect, irrespective the the cost. With limited cap space and draft picks, you can't acquire or afford top talent at more than a handful of positions. However, many fans would still rather pay $20m a season for big name, than find a $5m a season player who can give you 90% of the production whilst 'saving' you $15m that you can then use to stregngthen multiple other positions.

As for ranking Qb's, IMO there are 4 QB's who are head and shoulders above the rest (P.Manning Brady, Brees and Rodgers). Behind that I'd very begudgingly put Eli and Roethlisberger based solely on their super bowl win (although I'm not at all conviced that either are significantly better than the guys mentioned below). Behind that, positions 7-12/13/14 are very tight, with little between buys like Schaub, Ryan, Stafford, Flacco, Rivers, Romo and possibly even MV and Cutler. They are all very good QBs who are capable of winning a championship with the right players around them and a little bit of good fortune (just like Eli and Ben).