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Some Of My Liberal Friends Help Me Out Here


Peyton
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I'm not trying to pick a fight here, I'm just trying to figure out if the average liberal agrees with the stance of the Democratic party on a certain issue. I've only found one liberal person I know that actually agrees with the Democrats on this issue.

Do you think that a state law requiring voters to have identification is bad?

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I don't. I do think that the manner in which it is required, and the type of ID required is what is most often the issue, though.

Do keep in mind that instances of voter fraud in which an individual presents themselves as someone they are not, in order to vote, are very, very rare. That fact raises questions about the motives for requiring ID to vote. Particularly when absentee voting has proven to be far more rife with fraud.

So, I am not opposed to the principle, but I am often opposed to the application.

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I'm not trying to pick a fight here, I'm just trying to figure out if the average liberal agrees with the stance of the Democratic party on a certain issue. I've only found one liberal person I know that actually agrees with the Democrats on this issue.

Do you think that a state law requiring voters to have identification is bad?

You should check the other threads where this has been addressed many times already.

But I will repeat much of that in a condensed form to answer your question. No, it's not bad. Nobody believes that there should be no ID whatsoever required.

The debate is around what types of ID are best. The current political fights are not over whether or not people should show an ID. The fight is over what kind of ID and who pays a disproportionately higher cost for those ID's.

The original Georgia ID proposal required those without a driver's license to buy a $20 state photo ID. But people could not go to the DMV to get this ID. They had to go to special centers that sold them. And the state proposal provided very few such centers. Many of them were as far as 50 miles away from residents (and most of the centers were located in more Republican areas).

What documentation was required to get this ID? Birth certificates, social security cards, and other such documents.

What documentation was required under previous law to vote? Birth certificates, social security cards, and other such documents.

So the state of Georgia wanted to force people who do not drive to pay $20 and travel excessive distances to get a photo ID before they could vote based on the exact same documentation they could currently use to vote.

In Texas, which recently proposed a similar law, the locations to get the ID were over 100 miles away from some residents.

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I don't. I do think that the manner in which it is required, and the type of ID required is what is most often the issue, though.

Do keep in mind that instances of voter fraud in which an individual presents themselves as someone they are not, in order to vote, are very, very rare. That fact raises questions about the motives for requiring ID to vote. Particularly when absentee voting has proven to be far more rife with fraud.

So, I am not opposed to the principle, but I am often opposed to the application.

Not to mention that the same Republicans who proposed requiring this state-issued ID loosened the regulations over absentee voting.

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You should check the other threads where this has been addressed many times already.

But I will repeat much of that in a condensed form to answer your question. No, it's not bad. Nobody believes that there should be no ID whatsoever required.

The debate is around what types of ID are best. The current political fights are not over whether or not people should show an ID. The fight is over what kind of ID and who pays a disproportionately higher cost for those ID's.

Well, that might be how you feel, but that is not reality. In Virginia there is pushback against the law, and it doesn't even require a photo ID. You can even utilize a utility bill, which is ridiculous by the way, and people are still objecting.

I appreciate hearing your feelings on the subject though.

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Not to mention that the same Republicans who proposed requiring this state-issued ID loosened the regulations over absentee voting.

My question wasn't about Georgia. It was really a general question. It's of interest to me because there is currently controversy in Virginia, where I live, about the recently passed legislation, which hasn't yet been signed by the Governor.

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Well, that might be how you feel, but that is not reality. In Virginia there is pushback against the law, and it doesn't even require a photo ID. You can even utilize a utility bill, which is ridiculous by the way, and people are still objecting.

I appreciate hearing your feelings on the subject though.

Actually, the reality is that a social security card can be used under current Virginia law. I'll say this again--nobody supports not having to show any ID whatsoever in order to vote.

You can see the voting requirements here:

http://www.sbe.virgi...n_Virginia.html

http://www.sbe.virgi...ntification.pdf

My reading of the law is that a utility bill can establish residence but not identification. A utility bill alone will not let you vote, IOW. Maybe I'm wrong and if a utility bill alone is sufficient for ID then the law needs to be changed. The contention seems to be voters who don't have ID at all and who vote by simply signing a sworn statement that they are who they say they are.

But let's get back to Georgia and Texas. How does requiring people without cars to travel excessive distances to get an ID using the same documentation they can currently use to vote reduce fraud (that is largely nonexistent anyway)?

Edited by AcworthFalcFan
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My question wasn't about Georgia. It was really a general question. It's of interest to me because there is currently controversy in Virginia, where I live, about the recently passed legislation, which hasn't yet been signed by the Governor.

The point is that your general question is ridiculous given the actual political debate. Again, what is the purpose of these laws and what are the proposals for the ID requirements? I've explained the nuance and complexity of the debate to you. If you want to revert back to simplistic "general questions" then expect some push back from the reality of the actual debate that is occurring.

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Actually, the reality is that a social security card can be used under current Virginia law. I'll say this again--nobody supports not having to show any ID whatsoever in order to vote.

You can see the voting requirements here:

http://www.sbe.virgi...n_Virginia.html

http://www.sbe.virgi...ntification.pdf

My reading of the law is that a utility bill can establish residence but not identification. A utility bill alone will not let you vote, IOW. Maybe I'm wrong and if a utility bill alone is sufficient for ID then the law needs to be changed. The contention seems to be voters who don't have ID at all and who vote by simply signing a sworn statement that they are who they say they are.

But let's get back to Georgia and Texas. How does requiring people without cars to travel excessive distances to get an ID using the same documentation they can currently use to vote reduce fraud (that is largely nonexistent anyway)?

If you read the requirements, you would know that currently no ID is required whatsoever in Virginia. All a voter is required to do is to sign an Affirmation of Identity statement.

The point is that your general question is ridiculous given the actual political debate. Again, what is the purpose of these laws and what are the proposals for the ID requirements? I've explained the nuance and complexity of the debate to you. If you want to revert back to simplistic "general questions" then expect some push back from the reality of the actual debate that is occurring.

Ok, well......tell me a voter ID law that you could get behind.

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If you read the requirements, you would know that currently no ID is required whatsoever in Virginia. All a voter is required to do is to sign an Affirmation of Identity statement.

Ok, well......tell me a voter ID law that you could get behind.

Are you actually reading the responses in this thread? I said the contention seems to be about the affirmation statement in the post to which you responded. ID is required but there is a process for people to vote without it. That's not the same as Nevada which requires no ID at all.

I actually think that the new Virginia law is the most reasonable of the recent proposals across the states. I have no problem requiring IDs so long as it does not put an excessive burden on poor people. If you are going to require a state ID then there should be places close to all residents where they can get them for free.

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Anybody who is opposed to showing ID cards when voting is simply just drinking the partisan kool-aid. Not enforcing photo ID opens up every election to fraud. Unacceptable.

This is an interesting vid on the subject:

Crazy that this guy could vote even when using a dead guy's name and no ID.

I'll wait until the full, unedited tapes are released before believing anything that O'Keefe puts out. It's hilarious that you were duped by the ACORN tapes and yet you still keep putting up stuff by that fraud.

Then again, you're also the one who cited Commie Blaster as a credible source, so...

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Read this article and tell me if you are OK with the Virginia law:

http://wtvr.com/2012/03/12/virginia-voter-id-bill-awaits-governor-while-texas-version-gets-court-challenge/

(WTVR)–For weeks it was the center of contentious dispute at the Virginia Capital. Lawmakers were divided, polarized by the Voter ID bill.

“Both sides see this as an issue that’s at the heart of democracy,” said election law expert Stephen Piepgrass.

The Virginia bill eventually passed the House and Senate and now rest in the hands of the Governor.

The bill requires that Virginia voters must bring proof of identity to the polls in order to vote.

That could include photo ID, a student ID, an electric bill or a paycheck.

If voters have none of those things they can’t vote provisionally and return within a week with proper proof.

Texas and South Carolina passed voter id bills and both have been challenged in court.

On Monday, Texas was told by the US Justice Department that their voter id law would discriminate against minority voters, specifically Hispanic voters who would be more likely not to have a photo id.

So will Virginia’s bill be destined for the same?

“It will have to clear those hurdles and this is a sign that the justice department is scrutinizing these bills very closely,” said Piepgrass.

Election law experts also point out that Virginia’s law is more flexible than the Texas version, allowing voters to bring multiple forms of id rather than strictly requiring a photo. But for all states involved political timing is now of the essence.

“This is an extremely divisive issue and both parties are going to use it to motivate voters come November,” said political analyst Bob Holsworth.

If the Virginia voter id bill does become law, the justice department will have to approve it. It could mean another legal showdown. Holsworth is confident the governor will sign it and defend it.

“He’s likely going to point out the differences in the Virginia law and make the argument that this is why the justice department ought to approve it,” said Holsworth.

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Anybody who is opposed to showing ID cards when voting is simply just drinking the partisan kool-aid. Not enforcing photo ID opens up every election to fraud. Unacceptable.

This is an interesting vid on the subject:

Crazy that this guy could vote even when using a dead guy's name and no ID.

Wow. Great example of the problem that we face. Thank God nobody can fake an ID or utility bill for a dead person in order to vote.

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Are you actually reading the responses in this thread? I said the contention seems to be about the affirmation statement in the post to which you responded. ID is required but there is a process for people to vote without it. That's not the same as Nevada which requires no ID at all.

I actually think that the new Virginia law is the most reasonable of the recent proposals across the states. I have no problem requiring IDs so long as it does not put an excessive burden on poor people. If you are going to require a state ID then there should be places close to all residents where they can get them for free.

Did you read the senteence you just typed there. Read it again and see if if makes sense.

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Read this article and tell me if you are OK with the Virginia law:

http://wtvr.com/2012...ourt-challenge/

(WTVR)–For weeks it was the center of contentious dispute at the Virginia Capital. Lawmakers were divided, polarized by the Voter ID bill.

“Both sides see this as an issue that’s at the heart of democracy,” said election law expert Stephen Piepgrass.

The Virginia bill eventually passed the House and Senate and now rest in the hands of the Governor.

The bill requires that Virginia voters must bring proof of identity to the polls in order to vote.

That could include photo ID, a student ID, an electric bill or a paycheck.

If voters have none of those things they can’t vote provisionally and return within a week with proper proof.

Texas and South Carolina passed voter id bills and both have been challenged in court.

On Monday, Texas was told by the US Justice Department that their voter id law would discriminate against minority voters, specifically Hispanic voters who would be more likely not to have a photo id.

So will Virginia’s bill be destined for the same?

“It will have to clear those hurdles and this is a sign that the justice department is scrutinizing these bills very closely,” said Piepgrass.

Election law experts also point out that Virginia’s law is more flexible than the Texas version, allowing voters to bring multiple forms of id rather than strictly requiring a photo. But for all states involved political timing is now of the essence.

“This is an extremely divisive issue and both parties are going to use it to motivate voters come November,” said political analyst Bob Holsworth.

If the Virginia voter id bill does become law, the justice department will have to approve it. It could mean another legal showdown. Holsworth is confident the governor will sign it and defend it.

“He’s likely going to point out the differences in the Virginia law and make the argument that this is why the justice department ought to approve it,” said Holsworth.

I actually like Georgia's approach of allowing a utility bill to serve as proof of residence but not ID. You can bring a utility bill and a social security card and the combination established ID and residency. I don't think that merely requiring a utility bill or paycheck is sufficient.

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I actually like Georgia's approach of allowing a utility bill to serve as proof of residence but not ID. You can bring a utility bill and a social security card and the combination established ID and residency. I don't think that merely requiring a utility bill or paycheck is sufficient.

Ok, I agree with you. The Virginia bill isn't even strong enough, and there are still people here b*tching about it.

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Umm yes, the video itself. Watch it.

There have also been documented cases of dead people voting in every major election.

Are you concerned about the issues with absentee voting?

The fact is that fraud fo the type you describe is extremely rare, and barely worthy of debate. The entire issue appears to be an intentional way to disenfranchise the poor.

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Faking an ID is still a lot harder than simply showing up with no ID and voting. And I don't think a utility bill is enough, I think photo ID should be required.

Cool. And how many cases of voter fraud can we look to eliminate by these laws, again? BTW, in my state I've been bringing ID for years, so this is no big deal to me personally, but I agree that it's much ado about something that is not a blip on the radar for things we should be focusing on.

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Personally, I think if you are too inept, stupid, or lazy as a human being to aquire a photo ID (and I'm not aware of meeting any of those people in my entire life), I don't think you should be allowed to vote anyway.

Personally, I think that if you are too inept, stupid, or intellectually lazy as a human being to understand that many people do not need photo IDs then you shouldn't be allow to vote.

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