VanGorder: Players or Playcalling? Is this guy a Super Bowl caliber coordinator or does he lack the players?

[kennycaine]

Its been three years and the promise of a top-10 defense has yet to be realized. I will keep it simple: Is VanGorder an NFL championship caliber coordinator or simply a good college coordinator who is a mediocre pro coach? Shouldn't he now be able to produce a Raven or Tampa-like defense with the new players on the roster? I firmly believe that the weak link of the team, albeit nickel back, is the offensive and defensive play calling, with the offensive side being the lesser of two evils.

Edited September 3, 2011 by kennycaine

[birdz4i]

he has gotten a pass up until this year for personnel and injuries. going into the 4th year he should have the majority of personnel he needs to run his scheme. with everybody now supposedly healthy, this year will tell the tale. especially if the offense is more "explosive" and the d sees more time on the field.

[Guest JoeSr]

I believe it came down to the defense not being able to get off the field on 3rd downs, seemingly 3rd and longs.

[birdly]

I think an equally valid question is why do you only start negative or derogatory threads about the Falcons? If you're just a "glass half empty type of person" that's cool I guess, but I've never seen a thread started by you that wasn't slanted that way.

[Hoppy™]

I disagree.... It appears to me that, more often than not, he has his players in position to make plays... I think it is the execution, not the play calling that has been problematic at times on defense. I think our OC and our DC take more heat than they deserve... A good coordinator can put his players in position to make plays, but ultimately it is on the player to execute. It's not too often that I see our defense give up a big play because of pre-snap issues.... Missed tackles, corners biting on pump-fakes, missing their assignment, etc. are execution problems

Edited September 3, 2011 by Hoppy™

[Hoppy™]

double post.

Edited September 3, 2011 by Hoppy™

[peoriabird]

Our offense wasn't top 10 either with better players! I am more concerned about the offense than the defense and the pre-season has only re-enforced this belief.

Edited September 3, 2011 by peoriabird

[delaigle]

You have to remember that SMITH's background is as a DC

this is SMITH's defense

any DC would only be implementing what SMITH designed/developed

[East ATL a.k.a TROLL]

The defense was above average last year.

[Statick]

BVG is better than I thought he would be as an NFL DC, to be perfectly honest. I'm just baffled as to why his defense can't get off the field consistently on 3rd downs and give up big plays in the process.

This year he's working with more talent and now has the tools to get ish done with this defense.

[E. T.]

VanGorder and smitty are both old fashioned and implement alot of old school ways to the playcalling like making the safe play call versus being too aggressive and crafty like alot of coaches are doing these days. Mularkey is the same way with the offense...calling the safe play instead of taking shots.

Edited September 3, 2011 by E. T.

[Da_Truth]

Its been three years and the promise of a top-10 defense has yet to be realized. I will keep it simple: Is VanGorder an NFL championship caliber coordinator or simply a good college coordinator who is a mediocre pro coach? Shouldn't he now be able to produce a Raven or Tampa-like defense with the new players on the roster? I firmly believe that the weak link of the team, albeit nickel back, is the offensive and defensive play calling, with the offensive side being the lesser of two evils.

BVG is an average college coach IMO. He had a good defense when he coached Georgia I understand, but he hasn't shown me he's capable of producing a top tier defense with what he's had. Ravens or Tampa-like defense um NO! We don't have the personnel like those defenses had. We can hardly play fundamental defense so i don't know how we're going to be in the top 10 with the likes of Decoud, Jerry, Robinson, an aging DE, missing a massive NT that can push the middle.

[wonderboy09]

BVG is an average college coach IMO. He had a good defense when he coached Georgia I understand, but he hasn't shown me he's capable of producing a top tier defense with what he's had. Ravens or Tampa-like defense um NO! We don't have the personnel like those defenses had. We can hardly play fundamental defense so i don't know how we're going to be in the top 10 with the likes of Decoud, Jerry, Robinson, an aging DE, missing a massive NT that can push the middle.

Again.... these are not terrible players. They just need to EXECUTE.

[vel]

If we hadn't gotten trounced by the Packers in the playoffs, this thread wouldn't exist because we would have been in the Super Bowl. We would have faced the Bears, who I don't believe would have beaten us. Tell our players to wrap up the QB and other players and get off the field on 3rd down and BVG looks a lot better.

[Da_Truth]

Again.... these are not terrible players. They just need to EXECUTE.

True. My point is they don't have the type of players the Steelers nor Ravens have selected. Smitty said he wanted to model his style of play after the Steelers and he's coached on the Ravens so you expect him to know that scheme and the type of players required to make it work. I agree a lot of it does come down to execution--which a lot of these guys hit and miss at times (inconsistent).

[Karst41]

I disagree.... It appears to me that, more often than not, he has his players in position to make plays... I think it is the execution, not the play calling that has been problematic at times on defense. I think our OC and our DC take more heat than they deserve... A good coordinator can put his players in position to make plays, but ultimately it is on the player to execute. It's not too often that I see our defense give up a big play because of pre-snap issues.... Missed tackles, corners biting on pump-fakes, missing their assignment, etc. are execution problems

Not being sold on BVG, and considering that he works directly with Smitty, who we all know

was a very good DC in Jax, you have to wonder why our defense has struggled.

Your reply to this topic, is exceptionally brilliant, and the single best reply to all of the

topics on BVG to date.

Kudo's +1. more if I could

[shockerfalcon]

You have to remember that SMITH's background is as a DC

this is SMITH's defense

any DC would only be implementing what SMITH designed/developed

I disagree. MS is like Hoodie or rex meaning he doesnt micro manage the whole team like they do. Im sure he gives BVG some input but he lets him run the d.

[Menage a tron]

Well I think this is the year - his seat is going to heat up if the D cannot perform atleast better overall as it did last year, because its going to come back to fundamentals - and nobody is going to say that these players arent athletic enough to do the fundamentally sound techniques and that will fall on coaching - and to be honest thats SMitty and BVG. Jax had a nasty D there for awhile under Smitty but, I think we need one more real nasty DT for that.

[peoriabird]

I disagree. MS is like Hoodie or rex meaning he doesnt micro manage the whole team like they do. Im sure he gives BVG some input but he lets him run the d.

It is absolutely absurd to think that Mike Smith doesn't design the defensive packages and tell Van Gorder what he wants run on certain down and distances

[PokerSteve]

I disagree.... It appears to me that, more often than not, he has his players in position to make plays... I think it is the execution, not the play calling that has been problematic at times on defense. I think our OC and our DC take more heat than they deserve... A good coordinator can put his players in position to make plays, but ultimately it is on the player to execute. It's not too often that I see our defense give up a big play because of pre-snap issues.... Missed tackles, corners biting on pump-fakes, missing their assignment, etc. are execution problems

I agree that a lot of the problems the D is having getting off the field on 3rd-and-long has everything to do with execution/defensive talent rather than what BVG is responsible for in terms of calling the defense. If you can't get to the other team's QB and you can't stay with their receivers, then responsibility has to be placed squarely on the helmets of the people on the field.

On the other hand, if you can't create a denfensive strategy to contain your upcoming opponent's strengths, if you can't adjust and make corrections in strategy on game-day, then the DC is not giving the defense the best opportunity to limit the opposing offensive.

As someone else said in this thread, with the upgrades in the secondary and DL, this defense has what it needs to be a top-10 unit. If it doesn't achieve that status by the end of the season, BVG has to take a lot of the blame. (Barring a lot of injuries to key people, of course.)

Edited September 3, 2011 by PokerSteve

[vel]

BVG can't take the blame for much. His plays clearly work (10+ whiffed sacks between Saints and Packers games alone). He can't call the plays and make the tackle for them. Like the two TDs vs PIT. Grimes went to make a play and DeCoud wasn't there to back him up. How does that fall on BVG. Or how about the 46 yard bomb? Or the long kick return to set up the Steelers in FG range early.

[Sun Tzu 7]

I believe it came down to the defense not being able to get off the field on 3rd downs, seemingly 3rd and longs.

Yeah but it's been the same problem for 3 Years.

Let's look at some of the other teams in the NFL.

Jets - Rex Ryan goes there and they have one of the best defenses the next season.

Green Bay - Dom Capers changes the defense to a 3-4 and in 2 years it's pretty good

New Orleans - Gregg Williams goes there and in one year..

When we hired Wade Phillips our defense made plays the next season.

I don't know if it's BVG or Smittys system but other teams have managed to make dramatic turnarounds with existing personnel on defense.

We have problems with 3rd downs and being able to create pressure since BVG has been the DC.

[peoriabird]

We have problems with 3rd downs and being able to create pressure since BVG has been the DC.

Its that 3-3-5 that Smith firmly believes in that doesn't work on 3rd and long! If Smitty didn't believe in the 3-3-5, it would have been scrapped long time ago because the numbers don't lie. So you have to conclude that this is Smitty's baby and he will keep changing the personnel until he can get this thing to work.

Edited September 3, 2011 by peoriabird

[bossFALCON™]

i don't BVG gets the credit he deserves. we are consistently good in the redzone and are always around the top 10 in PPG. we've been a top 10 run D the last 2 years. we get good pressure on the qb and we force turnovers, the only 2 problems are the missed sacks and the 3rd down defense. i think with kelvin hayden on the team now our 3rd down defense will improve. we have 3 corners who can cover so teams can't just target the nickle guy in coverage all the time.

[ATLBrave]

BVG is an average college coach IMO. He had a good defense when he coached Georgia I understand, but he hasn't shown me he's capable of producing a top tier defense with what he's had. Ravens or Tampa-like defense um NO! We don't have the personnel like those defenses had. We can hardly play fundamental defense so i don't know how we're going to be in the top 10 with the likes of Decoud, Jerry, Robinson, an aging DE, missing a massive NT that can push the middle.

? Guy was one of the top college DCs, so I don't know how you can say he's an average college coach. And he's been more than capable of putting a top 10 defense on the field, considering he's done it, scoring wise, last year (and no worse than 12th in the other two seasons). As for that list you made there, the only real problem player has been Decoud. While it remains to be seen if Jerry can produce, he's finally healthy and the staff has been raving about him. Robinson has done well for us here. A little overpaid, but most corners are. And an aging DE? That aging DE had 13 sacks for us last year, and 16.5 in '08. Also, massive DT that can push the middle? You do know we don't run a 3-4, right?