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How do the " leaders" do it?


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posted in another thread but I have been wanting to post this question for a while and since I typed it, I wanted to give it it's own thread.

Question/rant

one thing I never could understand about this world is this. Why or better, how, do such a miniscule percentage of people ( I E the world leaders and such) keep the much larger percentage of people in constant turmoil, war and misery? How is it even possible that so few ( the worlds "leaders and politicians, probably easily under 1,5oo people worldwide) keep the millions, or billions of other people stirred up, fighting, dying and committing violence against one another? It makes no sense whatsoever on ANY level, yet every day, there it is.

If you talk to average people you will hardly find anyone who is for any war, certainly not in favor of starting any war. Yet every single day you or I have been alive on this earth, every single day your parents, grand parents, great great grand parents and keep going back, every single day there has been conflict and wars somewhere amongst nations claiming to be civilized.

And as far as the actual foot soldiers how do they get riled up enough to keep going to die in a fight no one with any stake in the war ( the leaders) will never fight in? How does it keep going, in some endless circle like that?

It is impossible on any level short of demonic influence to explain. And all those leaders banging the drums of war, wanting to rule the world. they die and turn to dust and before the soot of those wars washes away, there are other such " leaders" in their place, convincing the farmers and family men to leave their lives behind and jump in the fray against another enemy sprung from the ashes of the last one.

Can ANYone explain this to me?

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posted in another thread but I have been wanting to post this question for a while and since I typed it, I wanted to give it it's own thread.

Question/rant

one thing I never could understand about this world is this. Why or better, how, do such a miniscule percentage of people ( I E the world leaders and such) keep the much larger percentage of people in constant turmoil, war and misery? How is it even possible that so few ( the worlds "leaders and politicians, probably easily under 1,5oo people worldwide) keep the millions, or billions of other people stirred up, fighting, dying and committing violence against one another? It makes no sense whatsoever on ANY level, yet every day, there it is.

If you talk to average people you will hardly find anyone who is for any war, certainly not in favor of starting any war. Yet every single day you or I have been alive on this earth, every single day your parents, grand parents, great great grand parents and keep going back, every single day there has been conflict and wars somewhere amongst nations claiming to be civilized.

And as far as the actual foot soldiers how do they get riled up enough to keep going to die in a fight no one with any stake in the war ( the leaders) will never fight in? How does it keep going, in some endless circle like that?

It is impossible on any level short of demonic influence to explain. And all those leaders banging the drums of war, wanting to rule the world. they die and turn to dust and before the soot of those wars washes away, there are other such " leaders" in their place, convincing the farmers and family men to leave their lives behind and jump in the fray against another enemy sprung from the ashes of the last one.

Can ANYone explain this to me?

No, but some will try. I know I don't have a clue. But, was there EVER a time in the history of mankind where there were no wars\conflicts, in any part of the world? Can you imagine what it would take to accomplish that, for all mankind?

We'd all have to completely deny our phobias of other people\cultures\values, on a WORLDWIDE scale. May be too much to ask man.

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No, but some will try. I know I don't have a clue. But, was there EVER a time in the history of mankind where there were no wars\conflicts, in any part of the world? Can you imagine what it would take to accomplish that, for all mankind?

We'd all have to completely deny our phobias of other people\cultures\values, on a WORLDWIDE scale. May be too much to ask man.

That's what I am wondering. If countries don't have wealth, their leaders will convince their people to fight over a ragged rock in the middle of a barren field. How in the world do they do it?

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I might be the goat in this thread but I will share a very short personal outlook on the last few conflicts. I'm very busy today so I will leave this for you to chew on and I will probably not be back to defend myself. I ARE allso NoT vEri skiLLed @T de-bait so that is also a good reason not to come back and defend myself. :lol:

1. After September 11, 2001 if you needed a leader of any sort to motivate you to want to crush Al-Qaida, you are a stinkin yellow belly. This war was as neccesary as World War II after Pearl Harbor.

2. Saddam Hussein - This guy needed taken out, did we need to be at war with Iraq to do it...NO.

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I might be the goat in this thread but I will share a very short personal outlook on the last few conflicts. I'm very busy today so I will leave this for you to chew on and I will probably not be back to defend myself. I ARE allso NoT vEri skiLLed @T de-bait so that is also a good reason not to come back and defend myself. :lol:

1. After September 11, 2001 if you needed a leader of any sort to motivate you to want to crush Al-Qaida, you are a stinkin yellow belly. This war was as neccesary as World War II after Pearl Harbor.

2. Saddam Hussein - This guy needed taken out, did we need to be at war with Iraq to do it...NO.

No need to debate #1. I agree. Should have taken the war and kept the war right on their front doorstep. But we all know that did not happen.

2. I don't necessarily feel Saddam needed to be taken out. I don't think he was any threat to us and he was actually a buffer in the area for Iran. Now there's only a vacuum there.There certainly isn't any more peace there.

But this won't turn into any debate on my part about these two wars. Like I said, all through history a very small % have been able to entice a very large % to try everything but peace. I don't understand how its possible. That's what this thread is about.

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I believe that most leaders simply exploit the feelings and attitudes that many in the populous already possess. Its pretty tough in this day and age for a leader to come out of the clear blue sky and say "lets start a war with Lithuania" and expect the masses to do anything but put a bullet in his brain.

There has to be some type of rub to begin with that these leaders are successful at exploiting or most wars simply will never get off the ground.

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Power lust.

I know the leaders have power lust, but how have they throughout world history had no trouble getting the common men, the foot soldiers to go be cannon fodder for their lusts?

As someone mentioned, I know they fan the flames of whatever is smoldering at the time, but man, how do they get that to work EVERY time? Sooner or later wouldn't the underlings realize they've seen that movie before?

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Fear and pride are the two primary influences on large groups of people. If you mix those factors with times of poverty and struggle, you only exasperate the condition.

Look at the rise of Hitler for a great example of this. He lived in a time where Germany was in economic turmoil, created a fear of the Jewish people(the enemy), and then played towards a strong sense of nationalism to help create a nation of loyal servants.

You'd think that in the days of the internet, where you have unlimited sources of information, we'd get past this. Sadly however, a lot of simple minded people live for the concept of us(good) versus them(evil), love to see us kicking someone's *ss, and take great amount of pride for whatever perceived boundary/difference that they think separates themselves from other.

Humans from birth naturally fear those that are different, which naturally turns to hostilities. From birth, they indoctrinated, some more some less, to value their skin color over others, to take pride in which country their parent's had s*x in, to follow certain religious beliefs, etc. This human condition is what ultimately leads to conflict, and is thus the story of humanity.

I could rant on and on for hours, but I don't really feel like writing an essay. It's really not hard to see why the world is the way it is, you can just sit on this forum for a while to see the certain people that have the traits that naturally lead to strife and chaos in this world.

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Guest Absconditus

Because as a collective, we're nothing more than monkeys waiting for a chance to fling our poo.

THIS.

Great song, great lyrics.

I'll respond here with the same thing I responded with in the other thread.

A person is smart. People are stupid.

A group of people is a lot easier to control than just one.

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I know the leaders have power lust, but how have they throughout world history had no trouble getting the common men, the foot soldiers to go be cannon fodder for their lusts?

As someone mentioned, I know they fan the flames of whatever is smoldering at the time, but man, how do they get that to work EVERY time? Sooner or later wouldn't the underlings realize they've seen that movie before?

It requires that the victims give their consent. How do they get people to provide it? By telling them that its their moral duty. There are a variety of ways they can do that.

You tell them that they need to sacrifice for society, so that it will be better for future generations. or....

You tell them that they need to give their lives to God, because they are too evil to live for themselves. or...

You tell them that they need to sacrifice everything that they own to you, because they have no right to it.

Many people live second-handed, meaning that they live to see themselves through other people's lives. If society tells them that they need to live their lives a certain way, then they do it. If they believe it strong enough, then they'll be happy to ignore the piles of bodies that they pass on their way to hand it all over to their masters.

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I think,and feel free to disagree entirely with me on this you are confusing the statement and moral or ideological objections of the average man with the underlying nature of the human condition. This requires of course the acceptance of certain objective statements, in particular that morality is in essence a social contruct and not a natural occurence.

Or as Hobbes would put it "the time men live without a common Power to keep them all in awe, they are in that condition which is called Warre; and such a warre, as is of every man, against every man" which is to say ,in the context of your question, that war by and the actions of its participants.Is an example of human nature unchecked that is to say without a higher obligation whether direct(law) or implied(social convention) it is our most primal and animalistic nature which prevails.

Or you know to sum it up in a much more concise and less pretentious manner its not that there is something flawed in their nature it's their circumstance which exposes the flaws in human nature.

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