Newton to start against the Phins, in preseason game 2.

[Big Bubba]

Last week analysis. Around 3 bad/horrible throws. Around 4 passes that were right on target and dropped by his WRs, and the rest(non-catches), on target, but, just very well covered by defenders. He looked poised and in control of the pocket. Didn't get antsy and try to run the ball. What stood out the most to me was, not once did he place the ball where it could be intercepted. All of his throws were in areas that only his players could make a play on the ball.

He threw off his back foot a few times, needs to clean that up.

Week 2. The Dolphins will be coming hard at him (as much as possible anyway without actually game planning against him), even in a preseason game. A rookie is a rookie, no starting defense, even in the preseason, wants a rookie qb to have a successful game against them. Unlike last week with the Giants, The Phins will have most of their starters on defense, playing against him.

I think this game is basically for the starting job in the regular season. If Newton just looks average, I think he gets the job. If he sucks, and Clausen looks good, Clausen gets the job.

Clausen doesn't get enough credit. One of the worst preseasons and regular seasons by a rookie qb, in NFL history, last year, yet... the difference in him is night and day between now and last year. The thing I'd like to see him improve on is his poise in the pocket. He has looked antsy back there, more so than any other qb. Another thing I want to see him change is, stop playing it safe.

Playing it safe never gets a qb anywhere. If you're afraid to take risks or throw it deep every now and then, you end up with a season that Clausen had last year. Or, if most of your key players are healthy, it can lead you into the playoffs, where you get schooled, at home, by the Packers. (Don't get your panties in a twist Falcon fans, Ryan and company have said that their offense is going to be more explosive this year, rather than vanilla)

Edited August 18, 2011 by Pox

[Serge]

Newton's starting the second preseason game based on the most impressive 5 of 13, the-receivers-dropped-half-of-them-he-only-made-three-really-bad-throws preseason passing performance in NFL history and whatever improvement Clausen's made since being thrown to the wolves last year is about to be buried so fast you wonder why they even used a draft pick on him in the first place?

Who could have possibly predicted such a set of circumstances? The humanity!

[Big Bubba]

Newton's starting the second preseason game based on the most impressive 5 of 13, the-receivers-dropped-half-of-them-he-only-made-three-really-bad-throws preseason passing performance in NFL history and whatever improvement Clausen's made since being thrown to the wolves last year is about to be buried so fast you wonder why they even used a draft pick on him in the first place?

Who could have possibly predicted such a set of circumstances? The humanity!

Yes...... That added a lot to the conversation. Thank you.

Now where do you stand on the subject at the bottom of my original post? Can game managers that are afraid to take risks, ever evolve into big game players?

By big game players, of course I mean the likes of Big Ben, Freeman, Brady, Vick, Peyton, Eli, Flacco,Rivers, Brees, Cutler, McNabb, etc... you know, guys that aren't afraid of throwing the ball deep. Guys that make the sport entertaining to watch.

Not sure the Qbs that are afraid of taking risks can be blamed. Their coaches only give them the plays they can handle. If they can't handle throwing the ball over 20 yards, maybe due to arm strength (a lack of), or some other issue, then their coaches just have to work around that huge flaw.

I think the best a weak armed game manager can hope for, is if everything goes their way, and they can one day be compared to Chad Pennington. Right now, Clausen isn't doing too swell. He has a very long way to go to be on Pennington's level. Some of the other "weak armed game managers" in the division, are well on their way to Pennington comparisons, though. Kudos to them.

[Serge]

Yes...... That added a lot to the conversation. Thank you.

Now where do you stand on the subject at the bottom of my original post? Can game managers that are afraid to take risks, ever evolve into big game players?

By big game players, of course I mean the likes of Big Ben, Freeman, Brady, Vick, Peyton, Eli, Flacco,Rivers, Brees, Cutler, McNabb, etc... you know, guys that aren't afraid of throwing the ball deep. Guys that make the sport entertaining to watch.

Not sure the Qbs that are afraid of taking risks can be blamed. Their coaches only give them the plays they can handle. If they can't handle throwing the ball over 20 yards, maybe due to arm strength (a lack of), or some other issue, then their coaches just have to work around that huge flaw.

I think the best a weak armed game manager can hope for, is if everything goes their way, and they can one day be compared to Chad Pennington. Right now, Clausen isn't doing too swell. He has a very long way to go to be on Pennington's level. Some of the other "weak armed game managers" in the division, are well on their way to Pennington comparisons, though. Kudos to them.

That's an awful lot of Ryan smack for a guy that's going to hate his starting quarterback in about three years.

But seriously, the bottom of your first post was garbage so I didn't really address it. Clausen didn't have "the year he had last year" because he was too set in his ways as a game manager, he had the year he had last year because he was a rookie thrown into a starting job with a crap team that had exactly one experienced receiver who didn't give a **** in 2010. Lost in the revisionism that took place as soon as last year was over for Panther fans was that the Panthers didn't have any of the tools necessary for a quarterback to succeed and in fact had most of the symptoms of an offense destined to fail, and Clausen became the scapegoat for an offense in dire need of a talent infusion. You tried to turn that into some sort of weak smack on Ryan and only muddled the point further, which is why I figured I'd just let the point be.

As far as the obsession with the deep-ball and the belief that that singular skill is what separates the great quarterbacks and offenses from the rest of the pack, that's exactly what Al Davis has been obsessed with creating for years. He's been trying to draft the next Cliff Branch since there was such a thing as an NFL Combine.

EDIT: Just to clarify on the Panthers not having the talent in 2010, I realize you had running backs, not that D-Will was doing much to help the team win in 2010 before he got hurt, it was more of the problem of going into the season with three rookie receivers and not a whole lot at tight end. Panther fans have since determined that this was Clausen's fault for not passing down the field enough and that all issues are resolved with Newton, the tight end additions and Legedu Naanee.

EDIT 2: I'm also kind of curious how many people are really willing to chalk up lack of a downfield passing game specifically to Clausen. Clausen wasn't a stranger to the deep ball in college at all, quite the opposite in fact, his last year at Notre Dame he had a very high ypa and consistently went deep with the talented deep threats at Notre Dame at the time. In the NFL that part of his game obviously diminished a great deal, but instead of pointing out that Notre Dame probably had more talent at receiver in 2009 than the Panthers did in 2010 and that the receivers the Panthers did have were mostly rookies with which Clausen had limited time to build a rapport with, Panther fans have generally just stuck with the claim that Clausen was worse than any rookie has any right to be and Fox was a big fat doodie head that wanted Clausen to fail.

Edited August 18, 2011 by Serge

[Big Bubba]

Not really smack talking Ryan. He has done well and made the most out of his chance, even with his inability to throw the ball deep. What more can you ask for?

Clausen is still stuck in the Fox vanilla system of last year, mentally. "Don't make a mistake, don't make a mistake". So, he limited his risks, he wouldn't attempt a pass over 15 yards unless the WR was wide open (by at least 5 yards).

3rd and 15.. he was the king of checking it down for a 1 yard gain. He looked like he was so worried about making mistakes that it not only hindered him, but forced him into situations where he'd make mistakes anyway. From how TC went, and his first preseason game, he has improved, but those tendencies from last year seem to still be there. So afraid of making a mistake that he limits himself, and ends up making mistakes anyway.

If you're going to suck azz your rookie year, at least suck azz while trying to make things happen, with deep throws that stretch a defense thin, like Freeman did.

Regardless, if he ever gets himself in the right mental state for the game, he could still be a decent qb. Don't know if he can though.. With the year he had, he's not someone a new coaching staff wanted to hang their hat on.

Back to Ryan, he knows he has to work on his deep throws, and from my understanding, that is just what he has been doing this TC and offseason. He is aware that it was either the system or himself that hindered the Falcons in the playoffs and seems determined to fix it. I'm surprised the Falcons made their system work for 3 years, before a team like the Packers finally stepped up and said "All we have to do in order to shut down the Falcons offense is cover the field 10 yards or less from the LOS, Ryan isn't accurate beyond 15

yards"

Be thankful your team seems to be changing things up. Fox kept his sh1t the exact same, even though his system got royally exposed in the playoffs against the Cardinals. It remained the same in '09 and '10, and it got worse and worse each year, with how teams seemed to know what we were going to call before we called it.

[Serge]

Not really smack talking Ryan. He has done well and made the most out of his chance, even with his inability to throw the ball deep. What more can you ask for?

Clausen is still stuck in the Fox vanilla system of last year, mentally. "Don't make a mistake, don't make a mistake". So, he limited his risks, he wouldn't attempt a pass over 15 yards unless the WR was wide open (by at least 5 yards).

3rd and 15.. he was the king of checking it down for a 1 yard gain. He looked like he was so worried about making mistakes that it not only hindered him, but forced him into situations where he'd make mistakes anyway. From how TC went, and his first preseason game, he has improved, but those tendencies from last year seem to still be there. So afraid of making a mistake that he limits himself, and ends up making mistakes anyway.

If you're going to suck azz your rookie year, at least suck azz while trying to make things happen, with deep throws that stretch a defense thin, like Freeman did.

Regardless, if he ever gets himself in the right mental state for the game, he could still be a decent qb. Don't know if he can though.. With the year he had, he's not someone a new coaching staff wanted to hang their hat on.

Back to Ryan, he knows he has to work on his deep throws, and from my understanding, that is just what he has been doing this TC and offseason. He is aware that it was either the system or himself that hindered the Falcons in the playoffs and seems determined to fix it. I'm surprised the Falcons made their system work for 3 years, before a team like the Packers finally stepped up and said "All we have to do in order to shut down the Falcons offense is cover the field 10 yards or less from the LOS, Ryan isn't accurate beyond 15

yards"

Be thankful your team seems to be changing things up. Fox kept his sh1t the exact same, even though his system got royally exposed in the playoffs against the Cardinals. It remained the same in '09 and '10, and it got worse and worse each year, with how teams seemed to know what we were going to call before we called it.

Ryan's first pass was 61 yards, that's probably going to be as good as Newton's entire first game.

Should he throw deep when he knew he wasn't actually going to hit a receiver? He didn't have the time to build the chemistry with any of Carolina's receivers, and Steve Smith was the only proven threat to begin with, Clausen simply being unwilling to go deep when he did it all the time in college is a facile excuse for the entire offense being what it was last year, and it glazes over the obvious problem at wide receiver the Panthers did very little to fix in 2011.

The Packers didn't figure out a strategy for stopping our offense that can be explained in one sentence, and that's a terrible explanation for why they were successful against us. Their defense worked because they were able to put Woodson on Roddy and roll safety support to that side while covering Jenkins exclusively with Tramon Williams, it didn't work when they played us in the regular season because our defense held up better early in the game and we weren't forced to throw the ball down the field to keep up, which allowed us to control the ball and keep their offense in check until the very end of the game; we addressed both issues that came up in the playoffs by adding a pass rusher on defense and a receiver that won't be so easily neutralized in single coverage. Frankly no one's considered the "problem" of Ryan not being accurate beyond 15 yards because it's not a problem and anyone with eyes and a memory longer than a week can see that.

And as far as Fox "not changing things up," if Richardson and Hurney wanted a more diverse offense they could have drafted a quarterback and some receivers before 2010.

Edited August 18, 2011 by Serge

[koolkat]

That's an awful lot of Ryan smack for a guy that's going to hate his starting quarterback in about three years.

But seriously, the bottom of your first post was garbage so I didn't really address it. Clausen didn't have "the year he had last year" because he was too set in his ways as a game manager, he had the year he had last year because he was a rookie thrown into a starting job with a crap team that had exactly one experienced receiver who didn't give a **** in 2010. Lost in the revisionism that took place as soon as last year was over for Panther fans was that the Panthers didn't have any of the tools necessary for a quarterback to succeed and in fact had most of the symptoms of an offense destined to fail, and Clausen became the scapegoat for an offense in dire need of a talent infusion. You tried to turn that into some sort of weak smack on Ryan and only muddled the point further, which is why I figured I'd just let the point be.

As far as the obsession with the deep-ball and the belief that that singular skill is what separates the great quarterbacks and offenses from the rest of the pack, that's exactly what Al Davis has been obsessed with creating for years. He's been trying to draft the next Cliff Branch since there was such a thing as an NFL Combine.

EDIT: Just to clarify on the Panthers not having the talent in 2010, I realize you had running backs, not that D-Will was doing much to help the team win in 2010 before he got hurt, it was more of the problem of going into the season with three rookie receivers and not a whole lot at tight end. Panther fans have since determined that this was Clausen's fault for not passing down the field enough and that all issues are resolved with Newton, the tight end additions and Legedu Naanee.

EDIT 2: I'm also kind of curious how many people are really willing to chalk up lack of a downfield passing game specifically to Clausen. Clausen wasn't a stranger to the deep ball in college at all, quite the opposite in fact, his last year at Notre Dame he had a very high ypa and consistently went deep with the talented deep threats at Notre Dame at the time. In the NFL that part of his game obviously diminished a great deal, but instead of pointing out that Notre Dame probably had more talent at receiver in 2009 than the Panthers did in 2010 and that the receivers the Panthers did have were mostly rookies with which Clausen had limited time to build a rapport with, Panther fans have generally just stuck with the claim that Clausen was worse than any rookie has any right to be and Fox was a big fat doodie head that wanted Clausen to fail.

When this doesn't happen where will you be?

[Serge]

When this doesn't happen where will you be?

That might have been clever if you were responding to a post that made a prediction about 2011 instead of a post purely dedicated to the revisionism following the 2010 season. Instead it's a comeback that doesn't appear to have anything to do with what you were quoting. :blink:

[jungleking]

Newton's starting the second preseason game based on the most impressive 5 of 13, the-receivers-dropped-half-of-them-he-only-made-three-really-bad-throws preseason passing performance in NFL history and whatever improvement Clausen's made since being thrown to the wolves last year is about to be buried so fast you wonder why they even used a draft pick on him in the first place?

Who could have possibly predicted such a set of circumstances? The humanity!

Newton has not worked with the first team offense in a game yet. It's just me, but the coaches probably like to see both of their options at quarterback work with the rest of the starters before they go into a season where both players could be starting. Whoever starts the third game has the job, but this only means that they consider Cam a viable option for some point in this year.

[jungleking]

Ryan's first pass was 61 yards, that's probably going to be as good as Newton's entire first game.

Should he throw deep when he knew he wasn't actually going to hit a receiver? He didn't have the time to build the chemistry with any of Carolina's receivers, and Steve Smith was the only proven threat to begin with, Clausen simply being unwilling to go deep when he did it all the time in college is a facile excuse for the entire offense being what it was last year, and it glazes over the obvious problem at wide receiver the Panthers did very little to fix in 2011.

The Packers didn't figure out a strategy for stopping our offense that can be explained in one sentence, and that's a terrible explanation for why they were successful against us. Their defense worked because they were able to put Woodson on Roddy and roll safety support to that side while covering Jenkins exclusively with Tramon Williams, it didn't work when they played us in the regular season because our defense held up better early in the game and we weren't forced to throw the ball down the field to keep up, which allowed us to control the ball and keep their offense in check until the very end of the game; we addressed both issues that came up in the playoffs by adding a pass rusher on defense and a receiver that won't be so easily neutralized in single coverage. Frankly no one's considered the "problem" of Ryan not being accurate beyond 15 yards because it's not a problem and anyone with eyes and a memory longer than a week can see that.

And as far as Fox "not changing things up," if Richardson and Hurney wanted a more diverse offense they could have drafted a quarterback and some receivers before 2010.

The Panthers had three rookies last year, Gettis, LaFell, and Edwards. The first two combined for nearly a thousand yards receiving last year, or as that number is better known, more yards than the combined production of the second, third, and fourth receivers in the Falcons offense. The second receiver in the Falcons offense was an aging tight end. The third receiver in the Falcons offense was a running back. So, if only having one proven receiver is a problem and no offense will succeed with unproven guys to take the pressure off of him, then things are looking pretty bleak for Atlanta. But your offense is pretty much a case study of building around one very good receiver, then a bunch of secondary options that a young quarterback can quickly look to, so it's kind of funny that you're talking like this now.

Oh, you mean like Keary Colbert and Dwayne Jarrett? Second round picks who took a few years to realize they weren't NFL players?

[Big Bubba]

Ryan's first pass was 61 yards

His first and last?

Anyway, I'm moving on from the Ryan discussion. I'm going back to the title topic.

[Big Bubba]

Newton to start against the Dolphins. Their defense looks bolstered and their starters seem stout. They have the potential to give a rookie qb entering his 2nd preseason game, fits. Luckily Smith should be playing in this game. Smith/Newton have been working up a chemistry over the last few months.

[Serge]

The Panthers had three rookies last year, Gettis, LaFell, and Edwards. The first two combined for nearly a thousand yards receiving last year, or as that number is better known, more yards than the combined production of the second, third, and fourth receivers in the Falcons offense. The second receiver in the Falcons offense was an aging tight end. The third receiver in the Falcons offense was a running back. So, if only having one proven receiver is a problem and no offense will succeed with unproven guys to take the pressure off of him, then things are looking pretty bleak for Atlanta. But your offense is pretty much a case study of building around one very good receiver, then a bunch of secondary options that a young quarterback can quickly look to, so it's kind of funny that you're talking like this now.

Oh, you mean like Keary Colbert and Dwayne Jarrett? Second round picks who took a few years to realize they weren't NFL players?

We weren't proud of the combined production of our receivers after Roddy, that's why we released Jenkins and drafted Julio. That said, Gonzalez was more than you had at tight end ten fold last year and he was vital to our high third-down conversion percentage and the character of our ball-control offense.

You're right on that part, I should have added, draft some quarterbacks and receivers that don't suck. Who thought Dwayne Jarrett was a good idea when the Panthers drafted him?

[Serge]

Newton has not worked with the first team offense in a game yet. It's just me, but the coaches probably like to see both of their options at quarterback work with the rest of the starters before they go into a season where both players could be starting. Whoever starts the third game has the job, but this only means that they consider Cam a viable option for some point in this year.

If the coaches are anything like the fans, if Newton completes more than a third of his passes he's got the starting job.

Seriously though, unless he throws five picks in a half he's going to be the starter week 1.

[jungleking]

We weren't proud of the combined production of our receivers after Roddy, that's why we released Jenkins and drafted Julio. That said, Gonzalez was more than you had at tight end ten fold last year and he was vital to our high third-down conversion percentage and the character of our ball-control offense.

You're right on that part, I should have added, draft some quarterbacks and receivers that don't suck. Who thought Dwayne Jarrett was a good idea when the Panthers drafted him?

But Gonzo last year isn't as good as Olsen now, and definitely not as capable as the combo of Olsen and Shockey. And Snelling isn't the receiver out of the backfield that Williams, Stewart, or Goodson should be. Your characterization of the Panthers offense as in enormous trouble because of a supposed dearth of talent outside appears to be flawed.

Uh, the Panthers, Keyshawn Johnson, and a lot of other people. Let's not forget that the Panthers draft pretty well historically. Of course, you could just continue what you're doing and assume the worst about the entire organization.

If the coaches are anything like the fans, if Newton completes more than a third of his passes he's got the starting job.

Seriously though, unless he throws five picks in a half he's going to be the starter week 1.

Coaches and fans tend to have different perspectives on things like this. Coaches worry about who's going to win them games. But yes, it's looking more and more like Cam's job to lose, despite the fact that Clausen looks decent and Cam could use a little more time on the bench. Whoever starts game three will basically have the job. We'll see how they look tonight.

[Serge]

But Gonzo last year isn't as good as Olsen now, and definitely not as capable as the combo of Olsen and Shockey. And Snelling isn't the receiver out of the backfield that Williams, Stewart, or Goodson should be. Your characterization of the Panthers offense as in enormous trouble because of a supposed dearth of talent outside appears to be flawed.

Uh, the Panthers, Keyshawn Johnson, and a lot of other people. Let's not forget that the Panthers draft pretty well historically. Of course, you could just continue what you're doing and assume the worst about the entire organization.

Coaches and fans tend to have different perspectives on things like this. Coaches worry about who's going to win them games. But yes, it's looking more and more like Cam's job to lose, despite the fact that Clausen looks decent and Cam could use a little more time on the bench. Whoever starts game three will basically have the job. We'll see how they look tonight.

Greg Olsen's career highs in catches and yards weren't equal to what Gonzalez had last year, and he's never been more than a mediocre blocker. And Snelling's catches, yards and touchdowns through the air last year are better than anything D-Will, Stewart, or Goodson have done through the air since D-Will's rookie year. They're not the flashiest players in our our arsenal but they're more productive than you give them credit for; certainly more productive than your comparable players have been so far in the passing game.

Well if the Panthers and Keyshawn thought that he was going to be good, that's a lot of credibility. He was an even better bet than DeShaun Foster, Keary Colbert, Eric Shelton, Everette Brown, and the indomitable Drew Carter. Seriously, though, I still remember when Keyshawn was going to "mentor" Dwayne Jarrett, right before he found out that Jarrett had made him redundant. What a brilliant move that turned out be, amirite?

Just for the record, I said in the last thread that Newton would be given the job at some point in the preseason and would open the season as starter no matter how Clausen did in comparison, I'm sticking to that prediction.

Edited August 19, 2011 by Serge

[Serge]

So who won the job? Technically the coaching staff is going to make it official in a few days but I'm dying to know what Panther nation thought before the coaching staff "makes a decision."

[Joremarid]

lol @ ryan not throwing the ball deep. i haven't run the numbers on all the qbs but ryan throws the ball further then 10 yards down the field more often then brees and brady.

[Big_L]

lol @ ryan not throwing the ball deep. i haven't run the numbers on all the qbs but ryan throws the ball further then 10 yards down the field more often then brees and brady.

And more importantly has a much lower completion percentage of said passes of 10+ yards.

[Shredman]

So who won the job? Technically the coaching staff is going to make it official in a few days but I'm dying to know what Panther nation thought before the coaching staff "makes a decision."

they better have 2 guys ready to go lol

i dont care how big Cam Cam is

he is gonna get busted up come sept trying to make it happen with his legs.....

he had a smile after his head was almost taken off

he wont be smiling when its not almost anymore

[Joremarid]

And more importantly has a much lower completion percentage of said passes of 10+ yards.

not much lower, it's only a few pct point difference.

[calidawg]

So who won the job? Technically the coaching staff is going to make it official in a few days but I'm dying to know what Panther nation thought before the coaching staff "makes a decision."

Newton; In his first NFL start, on the road, against one of the toughest Ds in the league, with no WRs stepping up, Smitty being out, and he doesnt make any fatal mistakes. Im not saying he lit the world on fire and I may be giving him too many excuses, but 7-14 for 66 yds is much better than what we've seen the past couple of years from our QBs (Moore, Clausen, Delhomme) especially considering that none of the receivers paying could create any separation (outside of TE Olsen). Last night was terrible in all areas, but people are overreacting a bit (like they did when we beat the Giants). Im happy knowing the Kalil signing should help to sign one more starter(CB please).

Edited August 20, 2011 by calidawg

[falconidae]

Newton; In his first NFL start, on the road, against one of the toughest Ds in the league, with no WRs stepping up, Smitty being out, and he doesnt make any fatal mistakes. Im not saying he lit the world on fire and I may be giving him too many excuses, but 7-14 for 66 yds is much better than what we've seen the past couple of years from our QBs (Moore, Clausen, Delhomme) especially considering that none of the receivers paying could create any separation (outside of TE Olsen). Last night was terrible in all areas, but people are overreacting a bit (like they did when we beat the Giants). Im happy knowing the Kalil signing should help to sign one more starter(CB please).

So, Cam looks good when you compare him to:

a QB who had a historically bad year last year and

The QB who lost his job to the QB who had the historically bad year last year

and a guy who threw 9 picks in 2 games?

[Serge]

I'd have thought Panther fans would have been lining up to give instant analysis on what has been the most vaunted position battle in the NFL.

[calidawg]

So, Cam looks good when you compare him to:

a QB who had a historically bad year last year and

The QB who lost his job to the QB who had the historically bad year last year

and a guy who threw 9 picks in 2 games?

He looks good for someone who wasnt supposed understand NFL verbage and not be able to transition. he still has to work on alot of stuff, but hes currently ahead of scheduled. The biggest thing I get from this is that hes a hard worker and wants to be great.

Oh, and thanks for restating what I said. good job genius