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Again......not the point.

The point is that Obama said that none of the money would be used for those who are here illegaly and that is obviously a lie since they do not know if the people using it are legal or illegal.

I was not responding to you.

EDIT: Though i would like to know the same thing I asked of ATL. If people are paying for services at the clinic, how is the Federal government paying for care for illegal immigrants?

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I shop the insurance for our company, and none of the companies we have done business with have this requirement. They include Aetna, Cigna, Kaiser and BCBS of GA.

Yes, it's assumed that they are legally hired employees. If you're breaking the law by hiring illegals and putting them on your insurance plan you're committing insurance fraud as well.

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Yes, it's assumed that they are legally hired employees. If you're breaking the law by hiring illegals and putting them on your insurance plan you're committing insurance fraud as well.

Can you cite any law to support that? How is it insurance fraud? The insurance market isn't restricted to US citizens.
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Again......not the point.

The point is that Obama said that none of the money would be used for those who are here illegaly and that is obviously a lie since they do not know if the people using it are legal or illegal.

no he didn't. ATLbear provided the quote above. he said no illegal immigrants will be insured by these reforms which remains true.

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I don't really think the issue is what's moral, it's what is legal and whether or not Obama misrepresented the plan. I don't happen to think that whatever portion of the $8MM subsidy that ends up aiding illegal immigrants ins whatever small way it could is much of an issue, but I do think Obama probably was trying to appease everyone, as usual.

I don't think it's illegal for an illegal immigrant to purchase insurance. I could be wrong.

I just don't think it's much of an issue, honestly. I have no idea what proportion of workers in these areas are legal or illegal, and I think it's awfully petty to make so many assumptions over something that really has no ill effect. What happens if an illegal immigrant is injured while on US soil, working for a US employer? That could be far more expensive, but I don't see anyone ranting and raving about that.

In the end, it looks like more supposition and assumption about something most of us don't really know anything about, cooked up to freak out about something that doesn't really matter much anyway.

South Park nailed it.

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no he didn't. ATLbear provided the quote above. he said no illegal immigrants will be insured by these reforms which remains true.

Ok, so you are saying that providing free health care and providing insurance are fundamentally different I guess.

Ok, I can dig it I guess, the same way I bought Clinton's "I did not have sexual relations with that woman...Ms. Lewinsky" argument.

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Can you cite any law to support that? How is it insurance fraud? The insurance market isn't restricted to US citizens.

Providing false information on an insurance form is fraud. You're free to search the state or US criminal code for the specific citation, but it's there. Since group policies are limited to current eligible employees or those on COBRA or part of a retirement provision, putting illegal or ineligible employees on your plan is a fraud. It may not be prosecuted, and the insurance company may just want the cost of excess claims expense and possibly terminate the plan.

Yes, the insurance market isn't restricted to US citizens, but we're focused specifically on group health insurance per your reference to your company. Worker's Comp, for example, has provided benefits to illegal workers for decades even with legal sanction. It's a different topic.

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I don't really think the issue is what's moral, it's what is legal and whether or not Obama misrepresented the plan. I don't happen to think that whatever portion of the $8MM subsidy that ends up aiding illegal immigrants ins whatever small way it could is much of an issue, but I do think Obama probably was trying to appease everyone, as usual.I don't think it's illegal for an illegal immigrant to purchase insurance. I could be wrong.

I just don't think it's much of an issue, honestly. I have no idea what proportion of workers in these areas are legal or illegal, and I think it's awfully petty to make so many assumptions over something that really has no ill effect. What happens if an illegal immigrant is injured while on US soil, working for a US employer? That could be far more expensive, but I don't see anyone ranting and raving about that.

In the end, it looks like more supposition and assumption about something most of us don't really know anything about, cooked up to freak out about something that doesn't really matter much anyway.

South Park nailed it.

THIS!

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I don't really think the issue is what's moral, it's what is legal and whether or not Obama misrepresented the plan. I don't happen to think that whatever portion of the $8MM subsidy that ends up aiding illegal immigrants ins whatever small way it could is much of an issue, but I do think Obama probably was trying to appease everyone, as usual.

I don't think it's illegal for an illegal immigrant to purchase insurance. I could be wrong.

I just don't think it's much of an issue, honestly. I have no idea what proportion of workers in these areas are legal or illegal, and I think it's awfully petty to make so many assumptions over something that really has no ill effect. What happens if an illegal immigrant is injured while on US soil, working for a US employer? That could be far more expensive, but I don't see anyone ranting and raving about that.

In the end, it looks like more supposition and assumption about something most of us don't really know anything about, cooked up to freak out about something that doesn't really matter much anyway.

South Park nailed it.

You're right, it's no big deal. A million here, a million there, we've got the money to spread around...

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You're right, it's no big deal. A million here, a million there, we've got the money to spread around...

Sure we do. (sarcasim) If we stopped aid to other contries for 5 years we could solve our deficit problems.

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- An additional $17 million in U.S. aid will go to combat the drought and famine in the Horn of Africa, with $12 million designated specifically for helping the people in Somalia, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton announced Thursday.

Clinton made the announcement during a speech to the International Food Policy Research Institute, where she spoke on U.S. efforts to not just feed starving people, but also address issues of long-term food security, which could help avoid another crisis.

The money is on top of the $105 million in emergency U.S. funding President Barack Obama announced Monday, and brings the total U.S. humanitarian assistance to the region to more than $580 million this year, Clinton said.

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You're right, it's no big deal. A million here, a million there, we've got the money to spread around...

I see your shift at the straw man factory started early!

Get fired up about a few POSSIBLE illegals who MIGHT be benefiting from an unknown and likely very small subsidy from the US government, who could otherwise NOT seek health care and become an even greater burden on the system. That seems like a really good outlet for your fiscal concerns.

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^^^I'm not worried about food aid for starving people. Honestly we should do more of that.

Propping up brutal Third World despots and paying for their "security" (i.e. giving them guns to squash political opposition and popular uprisings) to ensure an environment friendly to multinational corporations, however....

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Providing false information on an insurance form is fraud. You're free to search the state or US criminal code for the specific citation, but it's there. Since group policies are limited to current eligible employees or those on COBRA or part of a retirement provision, putting illegal or ineligible employees on your plan is a fraud. It may not be prosecuted, and the insurance company may just want the cost of excess claims expense and possibly terminate the plan.

Yes, the insurance market isn't restricted to US citizens, but we're focused specifically on group health insurance per your reference to your company. Worker's Comp, for example, has provided benefits to illegal workers for decades even with legal sanction. It's a different topic.

Would you accept 'trust me, it's a law' from anyone on here?
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^^^I'm not worried about food aid for starving people. Honestly we should do more of that.

Propping up brutal Third World despots and paying for their "security" (i.e. giving them guns to squash political opposition and popular uprisings) to ensure an environment friendly to multinational corporations, however....

I hear you but do we know the money is really being spent on food in South Africa??

Why not just send them a million packs of Uncle Ben's rice?

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I hear you but do we know the money is really being spent on food in South Africa??

Why not just send them a million packs of Uncle Ben's rice?

Of course not. And a lot of the aid is actual food, not cash, by the time it gets there. Still doesn't mean it gets to where it needs to go.

We could probably do a lot more. Unfortunately the ethanol mandates pushed by Bush and Obama have directed 40% of the American corn crop to biofuel uses (and the OBSCENE subsidies and tax credits associated with them). So food prices are up across the board. While it's merely annoying to most Americans (a pack of bacon costs freaking $6!), it can be a matter of life or death for these agriculturally poor countries that rely on imported grain for food.

Not to derail the discussion, but that's a much bigger problem in my book. The US doles out $11 BILLION a year in subsidies related to corn-based ethanol, and the only thing it's done is drive up food prices globally and further harm the environment.

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Not to derail the discussion, but that's a much bigger problem in my book. The US doles out $11 BILLION a year in subsidies related to corn-based ethanol, and the only thing it's done is drive up food prices globally and further harm the environment.

And maybe an illegal immigrant gets $10 of that. WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING!
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Of course not. And a lot of the aid is actual food, not cash, by the time it gets there. Still doesn't mean it gets to where it needs to go.

We could probably do a lot more. Unfortunately the ethanol mandates pushed by Bush and Obama have directed 40% of the American corn crop to biofuel uses (and the OBSCENE subsidies and tax credits associated with them). So food prices are up across the board. While it's merely annoying to most Americans (a pack of bacon costs freaking $6!), it can be a matter of life or death for these agriculturally poor countries that rely on imported grain for food.

Not to derail the discussion, but that's a much bigger problem in my book. The US doles out $11 BILLION a year in subsidies related to corn-based ethanol, and the only thing it's done is drive up food prices globally and further harm the environment.

Yes........dont get me started on Ethanol!!!!! Yes its more earth friendly but.......15% ethanol in your gas means 8 miles less per gallon!! It pizzes me off when every gas station around here has AT LEAST 10% ethanol. Some have 15%!

Here is a link with stations in GA that have NO ethanol in their gas.

http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=GA

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Yes........dont get me started on Ethanol!!!!! Yes its more earth friendly but.......15% ethanol in your gas means 8 miles less per gallon!! It pizzes me off when every gas station around here has AT LEAST 10% ethanol. Some have 15%!

Here is a link with stations in GA that have NO ethanol in their gas.

http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=GA

The whole thing is, it's NOT more Earth friendly.

-It produces less carbon, but way more smog, ozone, and other volatile organic compounds.

-US corn-based ethanol requires 8x more energy to produce (derived from traditional, polluting energy sources) than sugarcane-based ethanol from Brazil (which can't compete thanks to tariffs).

-It can't be shipped in the same pipelines as gas because it separates in moisture, so it has to be shipped in trucks (more energy/pollution).

-Several gallons of toxic wastewater are produced for every gallon of ethanol fuel, which must be treated and scrubbed (at additional energy cost) before being released into water supply.

-Increased corn production means increased pesticide and fertilizer usage, meaning more water pollution.

The whole thing is a scam. It's corporate welfare for the corn lobby and fuel blenders.

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