SaintRay Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 I've argued here that Flacco is a very good QB, but others in Rivals argued he is garbage. Seems after reading this ESPN Insider article others agree with my assessment of Flacco.Why Flacco is as good as Rivers--------------------------------------------------------------------------------By KC JoynerESPN InsiderJoe Flacco and Philip Rivers both excelled in the vertical passing game last season. One of the most difficult things for an athlete to do is to change the perception people had of him when he first came to their attention.Take the case of Roger Staubach. Roger the Dodger took the sporting world by storm when he won the Heisman Trophy for an unheralded Navy team in 1963. He did this as much via running the ball as he did by passing (he averaged 14 rush attempts per game), and in doing so garnered a reputation as a scrambling quarterback.Over the course of his pro career, Staubach averaged 3.1 rushing attempts per game. To put that into perspective, Staubach ran the ball roughly one more time per game than Ken Anderson and Joe Ferguson, Staubach contemporaries who both were known as pocket passers, yet he couldn't shake the perception that he was a runner. He had made that reputation in college, and anything he did after that was going to be viewed through the "scrambling quarterback" prism.Joe Flacco is struggling through a similar type of misperception of his skills. It is thought by many that he is a superb game manager who has yet to make the jump to being an elite passer.However, a closer look at the metrics shows that Flacco has already made that jump. In fact, they show that Flacco displayed a Philip Rivers-type ability to get his team's vertical passing game in gear regardless of the talent level of his receivers.Let's illustrate, starting with Rivers. Last year, the San Diego receiving corps suffered through a slew of injuries and suspensions that cost them the services of starting wideouts Vincent Jackson and Malcom Floyd and starting tight end Antonio Gates for a total of 22 games. Those losses meant that Rivers ended up throwing a total of 189 pass attempts to the following receivers: Seyi Ajirotutu, Patrick Crayton, Buster Davis, Randy McMichael, Legedu Naanee and Kelley Washington. Those six players would be lucky to crack the starting lineup of any NFL team, yet Rivers ended up committing 34.9 percent of his targets to them last season.For most quarterbacks, a situation of this nature would cause a significant drop-off in yards per attempt (YPA) production in the areas of vertical (aerials thrown 11 or more yards downfield) and stretch vertical (20 or more yards) passing, but that didn't happen with Rivers. He ranked fourth in the league in vertical YPA (12.1) and seventh in stretch vertical YPA (14.8).One of the reasons he was able to do this was by getting quality YPA figures from both the big-name and non-big-name pass-catchers. His 13.0 vertical YPA on passes to Floyd, Gates and Jackson alone would have been good enough to rank second in the league in that category, but his 11.2 YPA on vertical targets to other pass-catchers would have been good enough to rank 13th in that same category.This shows that Rivers is capable of finding a way to get above-average vertical performance from backups. That ability kept the Chargers' downfield passing offense moving even when injuries and suspensions could have hamstrung it.Flacco was faced with a somewhat different situation in that his wideouts and tight ends were healthy, but they all had vertical receiving limitations.Anquan Boldin has a very limited history of being a vertical threat and he was paired up with Derrick Mason and T.J. Houshmandzadeh, a tandem of aging possession receivers. Flacco was able to do more than just work around these limitations. He actually excelled with this trio, evidenced by 1,472 yards on the 133 vertical targets aimed at these three. That equates to an 11.1 vertical YPA overall, but what is more impressive is that each of the three ended up posting a double-digit vertical YPA mark (11.3 for Boldin, 11.9 for Houshmandzadeh, 10.4 for Mason). To put that into perspective, consider that only five other teams ended up with three qualifying pass-catchers in double digits in vertical YPA (47 total targets needed to qualify).Flacco's downfield passing expertise did not stop there. He posted a 12.5 vertical YPA and 15.1 stretch vertical YPA on throws to targets other than the aforementioned three. Both of those figures are more than a yard higher than what the possession trio posted, and they should increase further with a legitimate deep-threat possibility this year in second-round pick Torrey Smith.It is also worth noting that these totals were not the result of a relatively small sample size. In fact, the opposite is true, as Flacco ranked eighth in vertical targets (182), second in stretch vertical targets (81) and topped the league in stretch vertical yards (1,130).This clearly shows Flacco took a huge step forward last season, but he has yet to get full credit for it, in large part because people still focus too much on his superb game-management skills. His reputation in that area precedes him, but it shouldn't prevent Flacco from getting credit as an elite quarterback for showcasing a Rivers-like ability to jerry-rig an elite downfield passing game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jb aka johnnybuc Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 I've argued here that Flacco is a very good QB, but others in Rivals argued he is garbage. Seems after reading this ESPN Insider article others agree with my assessment of Flacco.Why Flacco is as good as Rivers--------------------------------------------------------------------------------By KC JoynerESPN InsiderJoe Flacco and Philip Rivers both excelled in the vertical passing game last season. One of the most difficult things for an athlete to do is to change the perception people had of him when he first came to their attention.Take the case of Roger Staubach. Roger the Dodger took the sporting world by storm when he won the Heisman Trophy for an unheralded Navy team in 1963. He did this as much via running the ball as he did by passing (he averaged 14 rush attempts per game), and in doing so garnered a reputation as a scrambling quarterback.Over the course of his pro career, Staubach averaged 3.1 rushing attempts per game. To put that into perspective, Staubach ran the ball roughly one more time per game than Ken Anderson and Joe Ferguson, Staubach contemporaries who both were known as pocket passers, yet he couldn't shake the perception that he was a runner. He had made that reputation in college, and anything he did after that was going to be viewed through the "scrambling quarterback" prism.Joe Flacco is struggling through a similar type of misperception of his skills. It is thought by many that he is a superb game manager who has yet to make the jump to being an elite passer.However, a closer look at the metrics shows that Flacco has already made that jump. In fact, they show that Flacco displayed a Philip Rivers-type ability to get his team's vertical passing game in gear regardless of the talent level of his receivers.Let's illustrate, starting with Rivers. Last year, the San Diego receiving corps suffered through a slew of injuries and suspensions that cost them the services of starting wideouts Vincent Jackson and Malcom Floyd and starting tight end Antonio Gates for a total of 22 games. Those losses meant that Rivers ended up throwing a total of 189 pass attempts to the following receivers: Seyi Ajirotutu, Patrick Crayton, Buster Davis, Randy McMichael, Legedu Naanee and Kelley Washington. Those six players would be lucky to crack the starting lineup of any NFL team, yet Rivers ended up committing 34.9 percent of his targets to them last season.For most quarterbacks, a situation of this nature would cause a significant drop-off in yards per attempt (YPA) production in the areas of vertical (aerials thrown 11 or more yards downfield) and stretch vertical (20 or more yards) passing, but that didn't happen with Rivers. He ranked fourth in the league in vertical YPA (12.1) and seventh in stretch vertical YPA (14.8).One of the reasons he was able to do this was by getting quality YPA figures from both the big-name and non-big-name pass-catchers. His 13.0 vertical YPA on passes to Floyd, Gates and Jackson alone would have been good enough to rank second in the league in that category, but his 11.2 YPA on vertical targets to other pass-catchers would have been good enough to rank 13th in that same category.This shows that Rivers is capable of finding a way to get above-average vertical performance from backups. That ability kept the Chargers' downfield passing offense moving even when injuries and suspensions could have hamstrung it.Flacco was faced with a somewhat different situation in that his wideouts and tight ends were healthy, but they all had vertical receiving limitations.Anquan Boldin has a very limited history of being a vertical threat and he was paired up with Derrick Mason and T.J. Houshmandzadeh, a tandem of aging possession receivers. Flacco was able to do more than just work around these limitations. He actually excelled with this trio, evidenced by 1,472 yards on the 133 vertical targets aimed at these three. That equates to an 11.1 vertical YPA overall, but what is more impressive is that each of the three ended up posting a double-digit vertical YPA mark (11.3 for Boldin, 11.9 for Houshmandzadeh, 10.4 for Mason). To put that into perspective, consider that only five other teams ended up with three qualifying pass-catchers in double digits in vertical YPA (47 total targets needed to qualify).Flacco's downfield passing expertise did not stop there. He posted a 12.5 vertical YPA and 15.1 stretch vertical YPA on throws to targets other than the aforementioned three. Both of those figures are more than a yard higher than what the possession trio posted, and they should increase further with a legitimate deep-threat possibility this year in second-round pick Torrey Smith.It is also worth noting that these totals were not the result of a relatively small sample size. In fact, the opposite is true, as Flacco ranked eighth in vertical targets (182), second in stretch vertical targets (81) and topped the league in stretch vertical yards (1,130).This clearly shows Flacco took a huge step forward last season, but he has yet to get full credit for it, in large part because people still focus too much on his superb game-management skills. His reputation in that area precedes him, but it shouldn't prevent Flacco from getting credit as an elite quarterback for showcasing a Rivers-like ability to jerry-rig an elite downfield passing game.Uh Oh.....you've thrown down the gauntlet again!Something that doesn't proclaim Stain as the Best quarterback ever......I can hear 'em lining up right now, cracking their knuckles waiting to light into poor Ray. Those poor TATFers! They're always being picked on!Great Article BTW! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SyCo Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Uh Oh.....you've thrown down the gauntlet again!Something that doesn't proclaim Stain as the Best quarterback ever......I can hear 'em lining up right now, cracking their knuckles waiting to light into poor Ray. Those poor TATFers! They're always being picked on!Great Article BTW!only you can turn an article about flacco into a jab towards falcon fans.. did you get beat up by a bunch of falcon fans when you were a little boy? or wait.. there wasn't even NFL back then ..just kidding sorry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falconcheff Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Ummm. Flacco is a good qb. Freeman is a good qb. Ryan is a better-than-good qb. Brees is a well above average qb( or, better than better-than-good). Romo is a better-than-good qb. Cam Newton is cr@p. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REV.2000 Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 LIKE THE GUY IN THE ARTICLE SAID, "JOE FLACKO IS AS GOOD AS THEY COME."AND THE THING IS, HE'S NOT AS GOOD AS HE'S GOING TO GET. HE HAS APRESENCE IN THE POCKET, HE'S COOL AS A CUCUMBER UNDER FIRE, AND HE WILLBURN YOU. THE RAVENS GOT A STEAL WHEN THEY GOT JOE. I LOOK FOR JOE TODO A LOT OF GOOD THINGS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shredman Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 LIKE THE GUY IN THE ARTICLE SAID, "JOE FLACKO IS AS GOOD AS THEY COME."AND THE THING IS, HE'S NOT AS GOOD AS HE'S GOING TO GET. HE HAS APRESENCE IN THE POCKET, HE'S COOL AS A CUCUMBER UNDER FIRE, AND HE WILLBURN YOU. THE RAVENS GOT A STEAL WHEN THEY GOT JOE. I LOOK FOR JOE TODO A LOT OF GOOD THINGS. that may be truebut as good as Rivers ?????No WayI may be Biased ever since that playoff game Rivers Played with the ACL or whatever it was, i have been a big fan, that was Old School man.... You just dont see your Super Star QBs doing that in Todays NFLThats Bigtime man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Do Itch Big Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 Rivers is a beast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falconsd56 Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 Can you show a thread where ANYONE said Flacco was "garbage"I maintained that he PLAYED like garbage in several of the playoff games * ahem QB rating of 10). But that is a big big difference between that and saying a guy was garbage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRay Posted June 19, 2011 Author Share Posted June 19, 2011 (edited) Can you show a thread where ANYONE said Flacco was "garbage"I maintained that he PLAYED like garbage You must be an Engineer....because you live in a very technical world.So what did you think of the article....agree or disagree? Edited June 19, 2011 by SaintRay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falconsd56 Posted June 19, 2011 Share Posted June 19, 2011 You must be an Engineer....because you live in a very technical world.So what did you think of the article....agree or disagree?Nope I'm not.Its just like someone saying Brees threw a bad pass and you equating it to someone saying he is a bad passer. BIG difference.As far as article. doesn't sway me one way or the other But it is well written. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REV.2000 Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I may be Biased ever since that playoff game Rivers Played with the ACL or whatever it was, i have been a big fan, that was Old School man.... You just dont see your Super Star QBs doing that in Todays NFLThats Bigtime manOLD SCHOOL IS WHAT I SAW DREW BREES DO IN THEIRMARCH TO THE SUPER BOWL. I SAW SOME GAMES THATYEAR, WHERE THE SAINTS WERE DEAD IN THE WATER, ANDBREES TOOK THE GAME OVER. HE THREW THE BALL ALLOVER THE PLACE ... "VERTICALLY!" THAT WAS OLD SCHOOLAT ITS BEST. IF YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT AN OLD SCHOOLQB, IN TODAYS NFL .... YOU GOT TO TALK ABOUT BREES.THATS BIG TIME MAN! I'm only giving the Devil his due! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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