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JHav

HBO: Game of Thrones

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That scene cracked me up. Not sure why, but it was just so odd, and yet so in character for her.

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Just re-watched the replay on HBO. I think what disturbs me even more than the gruesomeness of his death is the screaming. I mean this was a guy completely without fear, he was not only totally unafraid of taking on the Mountain, by all rights the most formidable individual warrior in all of Westeros, he was eager to do so. Didn't matter. GRRM doesn't care how brave, righteous or determined you are, we all die screaming when some one puts their huge metal gauntlet through our face and pops the eye balls like jelly.

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Drake, this episode was the first time I looked at Daenerys and said "well, Drake was right -- she's really not a good person."

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Drake, this episode was the first time I looked at Daenerys and said "well, Drake was right -- she's really not a good person."

You unsullied are a funny lot - I'm on the opposite of most here. Despite my criticisms of her, and as much as I hate it for what it means for the story and characters, I thought she was justified in banishing Jorah in both the book and the show. His spying led to an assassination attempt, and he lied about it.

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Yea, I couldn't held her treatment of Jorah against her.

As someone else stated she did a great job in that scene.

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I don't hold banishing jorah against her, although I don't think it was the best move (consider littlefinger's statement about dealing with those you know vs. those you don't), but i don't really like her lack of focus on what should be her main goal.

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She would have been completely justified in executing him, and made a conscious choice to spare his life, but she could no longer suffer his presence in her camp.

She made the best possible decision imo.

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She would have been completely justified in executing him, and made a conscious choice to spare his life, but she could no longer suffer his presence in her camp.

She made the best possible decision imo.

I agree some what but the we all know who wrote the letter and it's intentions. She feel for it hook line and sinker.

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She didn't really fall for anything though, no trick was being played. Jorah spied on her and sent information back to the Crown for a good long while, information that resulted in a direct attempt on her life and the life of her unborn child.

Tywin Lannister wanted to create dissension in her ranks and certainly succeeded, but the pardon was no lie.

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I don't hold banishing jorah against her, although I don't think it was the best move (consider littlefinger's statement about dealing with those you know vs. those you don't), but i don't really like her lack of focus on what should be her main goal.

I think part of her problem is that she doesn't seem to have a main goal. She's kind of spinning her wheels in Slaver's Bay and it's not clear if she even cares about the Iron Throne anymore.

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The questions as to what Daenarys is doing bring me back to the interesting debates I had with friends last year about Robb and his leadership style and the cause of his downfall. It's almost like Martin wants us to remember that many of these individuals thrust into these roles are still very young (Daenarys, Joffrey, Robb-who I was told was much younger in the books when he began to lead the army) and it's evident in their decision making. Nowhere near as savvy as individuals like Tywin, Littlefinger, Cersei, etc.

But they're getting there.

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Warning: tl;dr, CSB.

Discussing the Starks a few pages back got me thinking of their similarities to Shakespearean tragic chararacters. I don't know if Martin is influenced by Shakespeare at all, though he certainly appears to be.

**Side note: Shakespearean tragedies, and all other Elizabethan-era tragedies for that matter, have been taught incorrectly for quite some time. Most teach that the tragic figure has a "tragic flaw." This is incorrect. That is the main feature of the Aristotelian tragedy. Shakespeare didn't read Greek tragedy. Renaissance tragedy focused on the "tragic virtue." This was a virtuous trait in the character that would normally be an admirable trait; however, in that particular character, in that exact set of circumstances, lead to his tragic demise. Hamlet, for example, had the virtue of his contemplative nature. He wasn't prone to making rash decisions, he waited things out and thought things through. This is a good trait to have. Except in his particular set of circumstances, it led to his demise. That doesn't make it a flaw, despite what cliff notes and community college english professors will tell you.**

Ned is the most obvious example. Most casual show watchers will say his "trajick flaw iz he's too honorable!" Honor is too broad of a trait for this discussion. I think Ned's tragic virtue is his honesty. It's a noble trait, and in any other character in any other situation, it would do them well. But poor ol' Ned just couldn't stop telling the truth. He sought the truth about Robert's kids and it cost him his head. He tried in the end to lie, but it was too late. His fate was sealed.

Catelyn's tragic virtue is her love of her children. She frees Jamie Lannister in an effort to get her daughters back. So consumed with freeing Sansa and Arya is she that that leaves Bran and Rickon behind never to see them again. Her desire to protect Robb gives her a seat next to his at the Red Wedding.

Robb's tragic virtue is that he is an independent thinker. Roose Bolton said it all last night - he followed Robb all over the country and he never listened to any of his advice. Had Robb listened to others advice, he would have married a Frey girl and maybe won the war. Instead, he made his own decision.

The questions as to what Daenarys is doing bring me back to the interesting debates I had with friends last year about Robb and his leadership style and the cause of his downfall. It's almost like Martin wants us to remember that many of these individuals thrust into these roles are still very young (Daenarys, Joffrey, Robb-who I was told was much younger in the books when he began to lead the army) and it's evident in their decision making. Nowhere near as savvy as individuals like Tywin, Littlefinger, Cersei, etc.

But they're getting there.

See my post above on Robb's downfall, or my theory on it at least.

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