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It's Really Interesting How Some Are Ready to Replace HD83...


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I know we like to breakdown plays and lay blame, but in all seriousness, it's impossible for us to say who is at fault on any given play. Let's use that play as an example. Lets say the play call is a post route and Jenkins sees the back of the endzone open so he runs the route deep and the pass ends up being underthrown. From the QB perspective, he sees his 6'4" WR in one on one coverage with a 5'11" CB and no Safety help. In that situation, the QB wants to throw it high and short to make sure he doesn't overthrow the WR, and give his WR time to adjust, get position, plant, and out jump the much shorter CB for the TD.

My point is that if Jenkins didn't adjust his route pattern based on the defense, he would be at fault for over running his route. If Ryan was supposed to throw it deep and to the back of the endzone, than it was an underthrown pass. Randy Moss has gotten half of his TD's by having his QB throw it higher and shorter to let him go up and get it. The playcall is not to go downfield and stop, turn, and out jump the CB. The play call might be a corner route and both the QB and WR know if they get the matchup they want, throw it short and high so it's catchable and the WR has the size advantage to make the play. It's also why it's important for a QB and WR to play together for a long time, to build that chemistry, to know what each other are going to do when they get a certain look and reaction by a defense.

The only time we can confidently say a QB made a bad throw is if he threw into double or triple coverage. Otherwise, we can't tell if the WR ran the route properly, he could go too deep or shallow and it makes it look like a horrible throw. We can also say with confidence that if a QB throws at single coverage, it was the right decision regardless of the result. That throw by Ryan on that play was definitely the right decision. If we want to blame anybody, it's both of them, because they obviously weren't on the same page as to where the play should've been made.

Yeah but that's not what the broadcaster said. :D Another example is the back shoulder fade. The playcall isn't a backshoulder fade, but the coverage dictates how it need to be thrown.

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Sorry, but I have to call you out on this one. Our offense did not regress in the later part of the 2010 season. We scored over 30 points in 3 out of our last 4 regular season games. We scored over 30 points in only 2 out of our first 12 games. I don't know how you can say we regressed offensively in the later part of the 2010 season. That's so far from the truth. Our offense was very hot closing out the season.

We played Carolina twice and the Seahawks. I think those games hurt us more than helped us because the teams were so bad that even if we called a bad play or poorly executed, it worked so we got away with it.

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I know we like to breakdown plays and lay blame, but in all seriousness, it's impossible for us to say who is at fault on any given play. Let's use that play as an example. Lets say the play call is a post route and Jenkins sees the back of the endzone open so he runs the route deep and the pass ends up being underthrown. From the QB perspective, he sees his 6'4" WR in one on one coverage with a 5'11" CB and no Safety help. In that situation, the QB wants to throw it high and short to make sure he doesn't overthrow the WR, and give his WR time to adjust, get position, plant, and out jump the much shorter CB for the TD.

My point is that if Jenkins didn't adjust his route pattern based on the defense, he would be at fault for over running his route. If Ryan was supposed to throw it deep and to the back of the endzone, than it was an underthrown pass. Randy Moss has gotten half of his TD's by having his QB throw it higher and shorter to let him go up and get it. The playcall is not to go downfield and stop, turn, and out jump the CB. The play call might be a corner route and both the QB and WR know if they get the matchup they want, throw it short and high so it's catchable and the WR has the size advantage to make the play. It's also why it's important for a QB and WR to play together for a long time, to build that chemistry, to know what each other are going to do when they get a certain look and reaction by a defense.

The only time we can confidently say a QB made a bad throw is if he threw into double or triple coverage. Otherwise, we can't tell if the WR ran the route properly, he could go too deep or shallow and it makes it look like a horrible throw. We can also say with confidence that if a QB throws at single coverage, it was the right decision regardless of the result. That throw by Ryan on that play was definitely the right decision. If we want to blame anybody, it's both of them, because they obviously weren't on the same page as to where the play should've been made.

Good post. The issue I have with Jenkins is he should often get those short lob passes and go up and get it, but he doesn't use his size well.

The other time you have a decent idea if it's the QBs fault is on a behind the receiver pass (like the one to Roddy before the half) or a low trajectory on a deep pass that doesn't make it to the WR (because it's hard for the WR to adjust to a low trajectory pass, making it imperative the QB is accurate).

But, in general, I agree. I just think we really need a guy at the 2 slot such that when it's man coverage, the QB will throw it up short, and the WR is expected to come back and get it. Finn had limited athleticism but had this ability. A guy with 4.5 ish speed and that ability at the 2 spot would open up the offense remarkably...because teams would realize single coverage on that guy is hurting them, making them stop shading Roddy and bracketing Tony.

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I know we like to breakdown plays and lay blame, but in all seriousness, it's impossible for us to say who is at fault on any given play. Let's use that play as an example. Lets say the play call is a post route and Jenkins sees the back of the endzone open so he runs the route deep and the pass ends up being underthrown. From the QB perspective, he sees his 6'4" WR in one on one coverage with a 5'11" CB and no Safety help. In that situation, the QB wants to throw it high and short to make sure he doesn't overthrow the WR, and give his WR time to adjust, get position, plant, and out jump the much shorter CB for the TD.

My point is that if Jenkins didn't adjust his route pattern based on the defense, he would be at fault for over running his route. If Ryan was supposed to throw it deep and to the back of the endzone, than it was an underthrown pass. Randy Moss has gotten half of his TD's by having his QB throw it higher and shorter to let him go up and get it. The playcall is not to go downfield and stop, turn, and out jump the CB. The play call might be a corner route and both the QB and WR know if they get the matchup they want, throw it short and high so it's catchable and the WR has the size advantage to make the play. It's also why it's important for a QB and WR to play together for a long time, to build that chemistry, to know what each other are going to do when they get a certain look and reaction by a defense.

The only time we can confidently say a QB made a bad throw is if he threw into double or triple coverage. Otherwise, we can't tell if the WR ran the route properly, he could go too deep or shallow and it makes it look like a horrible throw. We can also say with confidence that if a QB throws at single coverage, it was the right decision regardless of the result. That throw by Ryan on that play was definitely the right decision. If we want to blame anybody, it's both of them, because they obviously weren't on the same page as to where the play should've been made.

Look at the play, it's clearly Ryan's fault. No rush whatsoever. Stong Pocket. Jenkins was open right off the line, but Ryan gets happy feet for what? Now one was within 10 yards of him, then he steps up for no reason, pump fake and finally decides to throw the ball. It's Ryans fault on this INT.

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Make excuses for Ryan if you like but look at all the time he had to get this play right.

1. No pass Rush

2. Jenkins clearly beats his man

3. Jenkins is wide open at the 7 yard line

4. Ryan is dancin' around and wastin time in the pocket when he should've put the ball on Jenkins' number at the 5 yard line...

Ryan's Gets Happy Feet for No Reason, FF to 3:30 and notice The Pocket!

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Sorry, but I have to call you out on this one. Our offense did not regress in the later part of the 2010 season. We scored over 30 points in 3 out of our last 4 regular season games. We scored over 30 points in only 2 out of our first 12 games. I don't know how you can say we regressed offensively in the later part of the 2010 season. That's so far from the truth. Our offense was very hot closing out the season.

Put up points yes...did the offense evolve no. Packers saw the exact gameplan from the regular season. If you can explain why in the last run of games when only N.O. was the real threat why players like HD and Weems were not getting used more and the team was at full health offensively. We added no wrinkles whatsoever. Maybe regress was a bad choice of words...stagnate.

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Make excuses for Ryan if you like but look at all the time he had to get this play right.

1. No pass Rush

2. Jenkins clearly beats his man

3. Jenkins is wide open at the 7 yard line

4. Ryan is dancin' around and wastin time in the pocket when he should've put the ball on Jenkins' number at the 5 yard line...

Ryan's Gets Happy Feet for No Reason, FF to 3:30 and notice The Pocket!

Noone is making excuses for Ryan. You are the one trying to say Jenkins has 0 blame.

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Make excuses for Ryan if you like but look at all the time he had to get this play right.

1. No pass Rush

2. Jenkins clearly beats his man

3. Jenkins is wide open at the 7 yard line

4. Ryan is dancin' around and wastin time in the pocket when he should've put the ball on Jenkins' number at the 5 yard line...

Ryan's Gets Happy Feet for No Reason, FF to 3:30 and notice The Pocket!

I didn't see any happy feet. I just saw a pump fake and step-up into the pocket.

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Make excuses for Ryan if you like but look at all the time he had to get this play right.

1. No pass Rush

2. Jenkins clearly beats his man

3. Jenkins is wide open at the 7 yard line

4. Ryan is dancin' around and wastin time in the pocket when he should've put the ball on Jenkins' number at the 5 yard line...

Ryan's Gets Happy Feet for No Reason, FF to 3:30 and notice The Pocket!

You said yourself that Jenkins was open at the 7. Even if Ryan was locked in on Jenkins the entire time and immediately saw when he got open, no QB could hit a WR 2 yards later running full steam. These guys run a 40 in 4.3-4.4 range from a dead stop. At their topend speed, they are running about 10 yards per second. So from the time a QB sees a WR open at the 7, half a second to release the ball, and half a second in flight would be 10 yards from the time he saw him open, or 3 yards into the endzone.

That was a great pocket, but I just watched that play several times and that wasn't happy feet. That was a pump fake to the left to pull the Safety out of the play.

To be honest, I doubt Ryan ever even saw Jenkins open. He does the pump fake when Jenkins was at the 15, before he was open and looking at the other side of the field. What Ryan did see is Jenkins at 6'4" matched up against a 5'11" CB (Williams). He sees that matchup, does his dropback, Jenkins was at around the 15 when Ryan turned and pump faked to the left to pull the Safety away, which ensured Jenkins would stay in single coverage, and then turns back to throw it high so Jenkins can go up and get it. You can even see the GB Safety Peprah (26) have to turn back around because he bit on the fake.

Jenkins falls down 3/4 of the way into the endzone. He only had about 2 yards of field left. Why was he still running full stride to a point where he couldn't get his footing and adjust to the ball? That pass had a lot of air under it and it was thrown 35 yards (thrown from the 31 and caught halfway into the endzone). That should have given Jenkins plenty of time to find it, adjust to it, and catch the ball at it's highest point, which is what WR's are coached to do.

Randy Moss comes down with that 100 out of 100 times in single coverage, because he adjusts to the pass and catches it at it's highest point. Watch Roddy when he gets open. He doesn't wait for the ball or expect it to come to him. He slows down his stride a little bit to find the ball, and once he finds it, he positions himself to go and get it. That's what good WR's do. They don't continue running full steam ahead expecting it to land in their lap. If that's all they were supposed to do, Heyward-Bey would be a great WR.

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I'm proving proof as well. People like you can't handle the visual evidence. Jenkins did his job.

So falling down is his job? Where can I sign up? Check the breakdown of the play a few posts up. You're not "proving proof" whatever that means, you're making everyone's point except your own.

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You said yourself that Jenkins was open at the 7. Even if Ryan was locked in on Jenkins the entire time and immediately saw when he got open, no QB could hit a WR 2 yards later running full steam. These guys run a 40 in 4.3-4.4 range from a dead stop. At their topend speed, they are running about 10 yards per second. So from the time a QB sees a WR open at the 7, half a second to release the ball, and half a second in flight would be 10 yards from the time he saw him open, or 3 yards into the endzone.

That was a great pocket, but I just watched that play several times and that wasn't happy feet. That was a pump fake to the left to pull the Safety out of the play.

To be honest, I doubt Ryan ever even saw Jenkins open. He does the pump fake when Jenkins was at the 15, before he was open and looking at the other side of the field. What Ryan did see is Jenkins at 6'4" matched up against a 5'11" CB (Williams). He sees that matchup, does his dropback, Jenkins was at around the 15 when Ryan turned and pump faked to the left to pull the Safety away, which ensured Jenkins would stay in single coverage, and then turns back to throw it high so Jenkins can go up and get it. You can even see the GB Safety Peprah (26) have to turn back around because he bit on the fake.

Jenkins falls down 3/4 of the way into the endzone. He only had about 2 yards of field left. Why was he still running full stride to a point where he couldn't get his footing and adjust to the ball? That pass had a lot of air under it and it was thrown 35 yards (thrown from the 31 and caught halfway into the endzone). That should have given Jenkins plenty of time to find it, adjust to it, and catch the ball at it's highest point, which is what WR's are coached to do.

Randy Moss comes down with that 100 out of 100 times in single coverage, because he adjusts to the pass and catches it at it's highest point. Watch Roddy when he gets open. He doesn't wait for the ball or expect it to come to him. He slows down his stride a little bit to find the ball, and once he finds it, he positions himself to go and get it. That'what good WR's do. They don't continue running full steam ahead expecting it to land in their lap. If that's all they were supposed to do, Heyward-Bey would be a great WR.

I'm pretty certain that the play was going to Jenkins all the way. Ryan waited too long. He was trying to do too much. The pocket was there and Jenkins was open but he missed him. Ryan thought that he could get it to him anyways. But the thing that puzzles me is that Ryan stepped into the throw with no pressure and still floated the ball....I don't understand how it can be anyone else's fault besides Ryan. He's not Superman. He make mistakes just like any other QB.

Still debating the Jenkins Topic

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I'm pretty certain that the play was going to Jenkins all the way. Ryan waited too long. He was trying to do too much. The pocket was there and Jenkins was open but he missed him. Ryan thought that he could get it to him anyways. But the thing that puzzles me is that Ryan stepped into the throw with no pressure and still floated the ball....I don't understand how it can be anyone else's fault besides Ryan. He's not Superman. He make mistakes just like any other QB.

What is it that makes you certain the play was going to Jenkins all the way?

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Look at Ryan and Jenkins. The fact that Ryan tried to manipulate the safety with a useless pumpfake was proof enough. We all know it was to Jenkins. Look at the blocking on that play.

Looks like he did a good job with the pumpfake to me. If the play was going to Jenkins all the way and the safety wasn't over top of him then Ryan wouldn't have made the pumpfake. The play was 4 seams so the coverage would dictate where the ball goes.

The packers only rushed 3 and both safeties stayed deep. If both safeties stay deep and get wide you have 2 choices. 1 Hit the seam down the middle of the safeties or pumpfake the middle seam and go outside. The middle backer got good depth so he chose the latter.

Once again the pass wasn't perfect, but it was good enough when throwing to a 6'4 receiver in single coverage. If not then what is the point of having a 6'4 receiver? The ball was in the air almost 3 seconds which is plenty of time for him to gather his feet and atleast make an attempt on the pass. Only 1.5 more seconds and he had enough time to run a 40 yard dash to put it in perspective.

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Looks like he did a good job with the pumpfake to me. If the play was going to Jenkins all the way and the safety wasn't over top of him then Ryan wouldn't have made the pumpfake. The play was 4 seams so the coverage would dictate where the ball goes.

The packers only rushed 3 and both safeties stayed deep. If both safeties stay deep and get wide you have 2 choices. 1 Hit the seam down the middle of the safeties or pumpfake the middle seam and go outside. The middle backer got good depth so he chose the latter.

Once again the pass wasn't perfect, but it was good enough when throwing to a 6'4 receiver in single coverage. If not then what is the point of having a 6'4 receiver? The ball was in the air almost 3 seconds which is plenty of time for him to gather his feet and atleast make an attempt on the pass. Only 1.5 more seconds and he had enough time to run a 40 yard dash to put it in perspective.

All of that sounds good, but HD and Jenkins were stretching the field and w/o the pump fake the SE obviously committed to HD and the commentators immediately said that Ryan didn't need to pump fake because the safety was committed. Instead of pump faking, he should've threw it to the sideline shoulder of Jenkins, but he didn't, he threw it inside to the coverage and short but you expect Jenkins to make a play on that? The second replay from the back of the endzone shows just how poor of a throw it was. I'll admit that the first view does no justice for Jenkins, but he slips because the ball is short and he's attempting put on the brakes. The pass SHOULD'VE NEVER been thrown. If it were Vick would you still feel the same about the throw? LOL.. :D

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All of that sounds good, but HD and Jenkins were stretching the field and w/o the pump fake the SE obviously committed to HD and the commentators immediately said that Ryan didn't need to pump fake because the safety was committed. Instead of pump faking, he should've threw it to the sideline shoulder of Jenkins, but he didn't, he threw it inside to the coverage and short but you expect Jenkins to make a play on that? The second replay from the back of the endzone shows just how poor of a throw it was. I'll admit that the first view does no justice for Jenkins, but he slips because the ball is short and he's attempting put on the brakes. The pass SHOULD'VE NEVER been thrown. If it were Vick would you still feel the same about the throw? LOL.. :D

Do you have any proof that the safety obviously committed to HD before the pumpfake or are you just making stuff up? Where did Vick come from? Oooooh you're one of those. Nevermind.

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Do you have any proof that the safety obviously committed to HD before the pumpfake or are you just making stuff up? Where did Vick come from? Oooooh you're one of those. Nevermind.

The proof was the commentators remarks, they had all the views and angles that we didn't have. As far as Vick, I was just wondering would you defend Vick on a throw like that because it's that kind of throw that leaves you scratching your head.

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The proof was the commentators remarks, they had all the views and angles that we didn't have. As far as Vick, I was just wondering would you defend Vick on a throw like that because it's that kind of throw that leaves you scratching your head.

I would have a problem with anybody throwing it if it wasn't to a 6'4 receiver. That's not the case though.

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Didn't Jenks get injured before the season because of a pass similar to what you guys are debating?

I could have sworn a discussion was going on during that time over if it was Ryan's fault for that as well.

Yes he did and THAT was a horrible pass. If anyone can pull up the video of that the difference is pretty obvious.

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