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Evangelicals are right: America is on the decline since we kicked Jesus out of our schools.


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We need to keep Jesus in our schools and let him stay in our country! Evangelicals got this one right. :angry:

Teens sparks debate on immigrant rights.

The saga of Jesus Apodaca reveals the plight of many illegal immigrants.

They have few rights and usually no voice. Without documentation, they must remain anonymous or risk being deported. Oftentimes, employers take advantage of workers' illegal status by offering substandard wages, mistreating the workers or refusing to pay them. "Jesus Apodaca scored a 3.9 GPA, a college admission and numerous high school honors, and how was he rewarded? With an attack by an elected official who told him that he and his family needed to leave our country," said Valery Alzaga, director of the Justice for Janitors program at the Service Employees International Union in Denver.

But others say the answer is stricter enforcement of immigration laws. Illegal immigrants are breaking the laws and shouldn't be encouraged to do so, they say.

"Is there any moral or legal reason for illegal immigrants?" asked former Colorado Gov. **** Lamm. "Illegal immigrants jump the line, and anything we do to encourage illegal immigration is wrong."

The issue recently received statewide attention when Apodaca, an 18-year-old illegal immigrant, came out in the open to tell his story. Apodaca graduated with honors from an Aurora high school and was accepted to the University of Colorado at Denver.

Although his illegal status didn't bar him from attending a Colorado high school, he would have to pay thousands of dollars more in out-of-state tuition if he were to attend CU. For coming out in the open, Apodaca might be deported.

When U.S. Rep. Tom Tancredo learned of Apodaca's story, he called the immigration office in Denver and demanded that the boy and his family be sent back to Mexico. The family has since gone into hiding and could not be reached for comment.

Tancredo, a Republican from Littleton, said he was disgusted by the boy's arrogance to appear in the news with no regard for immigration laws.

Supporters of migrant workers came to Apodaca's defense, saying he and hundreds like him graduate from Colorado's high schools every year. Because of tuition laws, however, they are unable to attend college.

At a press conference last week, Apodaca supporters stood up against Tancredo and in support of a bill before Congress, called the DREAM Act, which would give in-state tuition to illegal immigrants who graduate from U.S. high schools.

"The undocumented children who we've allowed to graduate from high school now want to better themselves and their communities," said Estevan Flores, co-chairman of Denver's Latino Campaign for Education. "We believe this to be a rational, reasonable and humane way to proceed."

Advocates say students such as Apodaca plan to stay in this country, so educating them will only benefit the economy.

"Do we want a population that is limited in education, or do we want a fully educated population, given our industry demands and job demands?" said Ricardo Martinez, co-director of Padres Unidos, an advocacy group for immigrant families.

But opponents of the DREAM Act, such as Lamm, say the legislation will only encourage illegal immigration.

"I don't see any reason for setting incentives for people to come here illegally," said Lamm, now director for Denver University's Center for Public Policy.

Some use the Apodoca case to illustrate how immigration laws in the country contradict the needs of capitalism. Consumers demand cheap food, labor and services without thinking about how prices are kept low.

"The answer to close borders is a very easy answer," said Rep. Fran Coleman, a Democrat from Denver. "But the truth is, if we sent all illegal immigrants back, who is going to build our houses and office buildings? Who is going to drive the economy?"

Those against making immigration laws more lenient say illegal immigrants take jobs away from lower-class Americans by working for cheaper wages.

"When you bring in a large supply of anything, it drives the price down," Lamm said. "Illegal immigrants create their own jobs by coming in and underpricing American labor."

Lamm said he would rather see a market where consumers pay more for goods and services than one that uses abused labor. He advocates tougher immigration laws, better border controls and counterfeit-proof Social Security cards.

All agree current immigration law and enforcement have not stopped workers from illegally crossing the border.

And once here, they are in a weak position to stand up for themselves, said Rob Shikiar, an attorney for the migrant farm-workers division of Colorado Legal Services.

More immigrants have come to Shikiar's office this summer complaining of employers who refused to pay them, he said. In a typical year, he may see two or three dozen cases, but this year the number has jumped to 50 or 60.

"Typically, undocumented workers are timid to come forward," Shikiar said. "But undocumented workers are covered just as documented workers are under principal laws. The problem is, even though the laws apply to them, there could be unwanted consequences from employers if they attempt to assert their rights under the law."

Felipe Lopez, a member of Rights for All People, an immigrant rights organization in Denver, has worked with several immigrants who have been taken advantage of but are afraid to go to the authorities for fear of deportation.

He recently met an immigrant woman, who bought a car without brakes from a dealership.

"By not having rights, people have to suffer all kinds of humiliations," Lopez said. "When I learn that people have been treated unfairly, then I tell them that they have the right to stand up."

Lopez recently traveled to Washington, D.C., to advocate for immigrant rights. He said he has seen immigrants begin to stand up for themselves more often.

"People know that they have rights," he said. "They don't want to live in fear. They want to live in dignity."

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And all of that could have been avoided if he and his parents had just legally entered the country. Is it really too much to ask that people fill out a some paperwork and not start off their time here by breaking the law? It would make things so much easier on all involved.

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And all of that could have been avoided if he and his parents had just legally entered the country. Is it really too much to ask that people fill out a some paperwork and not start off their time here by breaking the law? It would make things so much easier on all involved.

Because legally migrating is so easy that anyone can do it. :rolleyes:

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Because legally migrating is so easy that anyone can do it. :rolleyes:

Ah, if you can't do something legally, then just do it illegally. Do foreigners have an inherent right to enter our country, legally or illegally?

It's difficult to buy a Ferrari. I think I'll just go steal one from my neighbor. I mean, that's fair, right?

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Ah, if you can't do something legally, then just do it illegally. Do foreigners have an inherent right to enter our country, legally or illegally?

It's difficult to buy a Ferrari. I think I'll just go steal one from my neighbor. I mean, that's fair, right?

It's a fair point to say that people should migrate legally. It's ludicrous to suggest that it's just a simple matter of filling out a little paperwork and then waltzing in legally. A lot of people are here illegally because the legal migration process is ridiculously broken.

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Ah, if you can't do something legally, then just do it illegally. Do foreigners have an inherent right to enter our country, legally or illegally?

It's difficult to buy a Ferrari. I think I'll just go steal one from my neighbor. I mean, that's fair, right?

Terrible analogy and you know it.
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It's a fair point to say that people should migrate legally. It's ludicrous to suggest that it's just a simple matter of filling out a little paperwork and then waltzing in legally. A lot of people are here illegally because the legal migration process is ridiculously broken.

Not disagreeing that it is a process that is time consuming process that takes pre-planning and preparation to accomplish. The legal migration process is broken in part because people choose to enter illegally and then backdoor the process or they want to just show up at the border and try to enter without knowing the requirements or what the process is and expecting to just be let in. If people would actually take the time to understand and follow the process in an orderly fashion, then the process would not appear to be so broken in my opinion.

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Not disagreeing that it is a process that is time consuming process that takes pre-planning and preparation to accomplish. The legal migration process is broken in part because people choose to enter illegally and then backdoor the process or they want to just show up at the border and try to enter without knowing the requirements or what the process is and expecting to just be let in. If people would actually take the time to understand and follow the process in an orderly fashion, then the process would not appear to be so broken in my opinion.

You realize that third-world countries are not like the US. Anyone in the US can go to a library and have access to the internet and inform themselves about the rules/regulations. Not so in most places in Central and South America. Also, the number of immigrants is seriously restricted, meaning that even if a poor family without access to the resources they need to inform themselves about the paperwork and regulations somehow magically knew the process and did all the right things, the overwhelming majority of them would be denied migration for years if not decades.

Look into the process a little bit. It's not as simple as you seem to think.

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You realize that third-world countries are not like the US. Anyone in the US can go to a library and have access to the internet and inform themselves about the rules/regulations. Not so in most places in Central and South America. Also, the number of immigrants is seriously restricted, meaning that even if a poor family without access to the resources they need to inform themselves about the paperwork and regulations somehow magically knew the process and did all the right things, the overwhelming majority of them would be denied migration for years if not decades.

Look into the process a little bit. It's not as simple as you seem to think.

Sounds like a "not my problem" to me. All the bleeding heart stories in the world won't change my mind. I read this article and was infuriated that this kid got an education on the backs of the taxpayers and didn't pay one dang thing for it. Get a green card, pay taxes like everyone else or stay the **** out of here, it's really that simple...

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Sounds like a "not my problem" to me. All the bleeding heart stories in the world won't change my mind. I read this article and was infuriated that this kid got an education on the backs of the taxpayers and didn't pay one dang thing for it. Get a green card, pay taxes like everyone else or stay the **** out of here, it's really that simple...

Yes, the land of opportunity and home of the free...unless you were stupid enough to be born in another country. Then p*** off and die like a rat.

James Truslow Adams is rolling arze up in his grave:

The American Dream, that has lured tens of millions of all nations to our shores in the past century has not been a dream of material plenty, though that has doubtlessly counted heavily. It has been a dream of being able to grow to fullest development as a man and woman, unhampered by the barriers which had slowly been erected in the older civilizations, unrepressed by social orders which had developed for the benefit of classes rather than for the simple human being of any and every class.
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And btw, Jesus didn't choose to migrate here illegally. He was brought here as a minor by his parents. He's obviously done well for himself and represents the potential to be a contributing member of society.

Do we throw him out of the country for the misdeeds of his parents?

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Yes, the land of opportunity and home of the free...unless you were stupid enough to be born in another country. Then p*** off and die like a rat.

James Truslow Adams is rolling arze up in his grave:

Or just come here legally and pay taxes like everyone else so we don't have to pay for their existence OR piss off and die like a rat (goes for the freeloaders already here--immigrant or US born)...

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I'm all for keeping those who are assets and booting those who aren't. How bout we keep jesus and deport the lowlifes?

That's fine by me. If someone is stealing or committing other crimes then out they go. If an innocent child grew up here and is making a contribution to society then they should stay.

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It's a fair point to say that people should migrate legally. It's ludicrous to suggest that it's just a simple matter of filling out a little paperwork and then waltzing in legally. A lot of people are here illegally because the legal migration process is ridiculously broken.

With the first 2 sentences you seem to give (retracting what at first appeared to be an excusing of illegal behavior based on the difficulty of the process), and with the last sentence you appear to take back (making that same implication again, intended or otherwise).

I agree a lot of people are here illegally because the legal immigration process is difficult, perhaps even needlessly so. The question is whether that excuses them breaking the law. If that premise is not being argued, then I have no quarrel with your argument. If that is what you are saying, then contra eatcorn, the analogy stands.

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And btw, Jesus didn't choose to migrate here illegally. He was brought here as a minor by his parents. He's obviously done well for himself and represents the potential to be a contributing member of society.

Do we throw him out of the country for the misdeeds of his parents?

And didn't pay anything for all of that and no, he's not a potential contributor to society because he's here ILLEGALLY which means he doesn't have a SSN and can't get a legal job nor pay taxes like those of us that have paid for his education. IMO, he and his family need to cough up some cashola for education he received and THEN deport them all until they go through proper channels...

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Or just come here legally and pay taxes like everyone else so we don't have to pay for their existence OR piss off and die like a rat (goes for the freeloaders already here--immigrant or US born)...

Again, coming here legally is SO easy that anyone can do it. What a crock.

Most illegal immigrants already pay taxes, btw. Of course, if we had a sales tax then that would be a moot point. :P

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