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The Official Graham v. Weatherspoon Thread


falconslife
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The amount of time it takes to transfer DE abilities in the pros is the reason we need to grab one now. Spoon would certainly have the more immediate impact, but we need to worry about two years from now when Abe and JA98 are gone. Who will we use? Biermann and Sidbury? We will need more ends who can play. As mentioned, it takes a few years. This is why DE's are taken high every year, because they are necessary for any defense. Even knowing they will have limited sacks their first year or two, they need them.

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There have been 10+ threads on this so I save all of the reasons why. If you go Spoon then the pass rush may be a repeat of 2009 which was pitiful. 3rd string QB's were having big days.

One WLB can only affect the one WR/TE in route. A good pass rush can affect all of the routes. 1 guy helping to disrupt all of the passing routes>>>>>>>>>1 work out warrior disrupting 1 route.

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C'mon people, I understand pass rush is a need right now but when was the last time a top DE made an impact their first couple of years. DE's is one of the hardest position on defense to transfer into. You have to 1. Rush the QB well. 2. Contain the rush. 3. Contain the QB. 4. Help keep OL off LB's and much more. Many DE's do well in college and then come into the pro's and get demolished! WHY? If i remember correctly JA98 said in college he was able to beat OL with just pure athleticism. In the pros EVERYBODY is athletic so the DE's must be developed.

Back to my point the last TOP DE to come in and make an impact was...I can't even name ONE (maybe Jared Allen....who was taken in the latter round way back in 04 DRAFT) DE to become playmaker needs time to develope and we already have 2 developing. However it seems that every year there are a couple of LB each year who can come in and make an immediate impact. EX Lofton, Willis, Beason, Clay Matthews, Brian Cushing, and even Lauriniatis.

If you want immediate impact GO LB or if you want another top DE who is overhyped( Chris Long, Derick Harvey, Gaines Adam(RIP), JA98, Gholeston, Jarvis Moss just to name a few) and will need time to developed even though they are top pick Go DE.

Understand that yes its early still to tell if the DE's above are bust or not but we know they weren't immediate impact their first year even though they were top picks. But that the issue we need immediate impact now!

Well put, +1. Gotta go with the Spoonman. We get an immediate starter and playmaker on defense. I just don't think Graham will be better than Bierman, Sid or Davis. I will say that I think he would be better than Busterson but that's not saying much.

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The amount of time it takes to transfer DE abilities in the pros is the reason we need to grab one now. Spoon would certainly have the more immediate impact, but we need to worry about two years from now when Abe and JA98 are gone. Who will we use? Biermann and Sidbury? We will need more ends who can play. As mentioned, it takes a few years. This is why DE's are taken high every year, because they are necessary for any defense. Even knowing they will have limited sacks their first year or two, they need them.

Wait a minute. Two years from now when JA98 is gone?!?!?!?!?!? Nooooooooooo!

Spokdevil you got too much knowledge to say that my friend Busterson will be gone well before that just ask his fellow Arkansas bust Crisp Houston. Back to the draft we should take a DE with our next two picks after we snap up the Spoonman.

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Wait a minute. Two years from now when JA98 is gone?!?!?!?!?!? Nooooooooooo!

Spokdevil you got too much knowledge to say that my friend Busterson will be gone well before that just ask his fellow Arkansas bust Crisp Houston. Back to the draft we should take a DE with our next two picks after we snap up the Spoonman.

:lol: OK, next week when we cut JA98...

I guess that would work, but just think about this:

OLB's DO have a very quick impact. DE's, CB's, DT's, and QB's usually need at least one season, but usually more like 2-3. However, OLB's are rarely taken at the top half of the first, while positions like DE are always in the top 10, and usually top 5. You can get immediate impact out of a 3rd round OLB. The long term difference is minimal IMHO.

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:lol: OK, next week when we cut JA98...

I guess that would work, but just think about this:

OLB's DO have a very quick impact. DE's, CB's, DT's, and QB's usually need at least one season, but usually more like 2-3. However, OLB's are rarely taken at the top half of the first, while positions like DE are always in the top 10, and usually top 5. You can get immediate impact out of a 3rd round OLB. The long term difference is minimal IMHO.

You make a great point but I think Weatherspoon will not just be a starter I think he will be an impact player. We already have two young up and coming DE's Bierman and Sidbury and to add another one seems to be overkill. If we do take Graham or have Pierre-Paul or Morgan fall to us I would not have a huge problem but I still would not be confident any of those three would be better than what we have at DE (not counting Busterson). I'm just glad we got TD pulling the trigger instead of McKay.

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You make a great point but I think Weatherspoon will not just be a starter I think he will be an impact player. We already have two young up and coming DE's Bierman and Sidbury and to add another one seems to be overkill. If we do take Graham or have Pierre-Paul or Morgan fall to us I would not have a huge problem but I still would not be confident any of those three would be better than what we have at DE (not counting Busterson). I'm just glad we got TD pulling the trigger instead of McKay.

No question Spoon would be good. I'm just saying you can find an impact LB in the 3rd.

Grabbing another DE isn't overkill. We rotate our entire Dline. Realistically, Davis, Abe, and JA98 probably won't be here for too long. We would then have no rotation, and no depth.

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No question Spoon would be good. I'm just saying you can find an impact LB in the 3rd.

Grabbing another DE isn't overkill. We rotate our entire Dline. Realistically, Davis, Abe, and JA98 probably won't be here for too long. We would then have no rotation, and no depth.

It would be nice if we can draft Rennie Curran in the 3rd round. I like this lineup.

LDE Brandon Graham® / LDT Peria Jerry / RDT Jonathan Babineaux / RDE John Abraham

***********SLB Rennie Curran® / MLB Curtis Lofton / WLB Mike Peterson***********

LCB Christopher Owens / SS William Moore / FS Erik Coleman / RCB Dunta Robinson

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It would be nice if we can draft Rennie Curran in the 3rd round. I like this lineup.

LDE Brandon Graham® / LDT Peria Jerry / RDT Jonathan Babineaux / RDE John Abraham

***********SLB Rennie Curran® / MLB Curtis Lofton / WLB Mike Peterson***********

LCB Christopher Owens / SS William Moore / FS Erik Coleman / RCB Dunta Robinson

1. i would be BEYOND pissed if we sat decoud down for coleman

2. we need an upgrade at WLB, not SLB. nick played good for us last year.

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Okay, here we go again...

Let me start off by saying I like what Spoon has to offer any team and I hope he doesn't end up somewhere else the NFC South, and I wouldn't be completely bothered by the pick if we end up going that route.

An OLB in the first would mean either benching Peterson (vet leadership/coordination on field) or Nicholas (awesome 1st-year start and developed well throughout the season.) While Peterson slowed down, and it would be nice to have Spoon train under Peterson, We need Peterson on the field for more than his tackles and coverage. Nicholas would be stunted in growth if we took him off the field. Guy was showing real promise after being absent from the first half of the season. There are also several solid prospects to be had in the 2nd (assuming we trade up) and the 3rd round at OLB.

Here goes part of the DE argument:

We ranked in the bottom third in sacks as well as pass yards allowed. You need good players on the line to get sacks, at least decent coverage, and actually have them pass (in other words, stop the run.) We had no problem getting to 3rd down last year. We did have a problem getting off the field on 3rd down, though.

Now, the addition of Robinson and the development of whoever our #2 will be will certainly help with the 'coverage sacks.' It's a mutualistic relationship though, pressure creates mistakes (misplaced passes, throw aways, interceptions, etc,) and not to mention sacks (which are always dope on 3rd down, and that way we could avoid them passing altogether.)

You may be thinking, "if we get an OLB that can rush the passer, we will solv both problems!" Well, maybe. We can't rush the guy every time, though, and like I said, this draft has a bunch of great OLB prospects to be had at a time when the DE skill is diminishing.

You may be thinking, "We already have Biermann and Sidbury! Give them a chance!" Well, they both have potential, but no promise as of right now. In addition to that, we will eventually need a replacement for Abe. Thats two DE spots that will need improving within a few years.

You may be thinking, "PJ will be back, and will add the pressure needed for Abe and company to flourish." Yeah, he will help I believe. However, we only saw him for 2 games guys and that doesn't prove much (trust me, I love him so far, but impact is not proved in 1.2 games.) You also need to consider the fact that he is coming off injury. As I said before--no guarantees. He may be slower for a while, he may get injured again.

We need a consistent pass rush. Babs is a good example. Guy was really consistent. Which brings me to my last point. Remember what happened last year guys? This guy has a chance of being suspended for several games. If he's out 4 games... imagine how much of an impact he has when he's in. We don't want a huge piece like that missing to kill us (thats a potential 4th of the season!) If anything, the extra skill at the DE will help us through if that problem arises.

TL; DR: OLB's are good in the 2nd/3rd round too; Abe will need his spot filled, too, soon; can't put all stock in Jerry's health/production; Babs might be gone for 4 games; DE makes the LBs and secondary better anyway.

Luckily, TD is smart enough to evaluate all possibilities. This is just an opinion by someone from the outside looking in. I feel pretty confident that DE is our best choice for the first.

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1. i would be BEYOND pissed if we sat decoud down for coleman

2. we need an upgrade at WLB, not SLB. nick played good for us last year.

1. Totally agree. would love to see Moore in on passing downs though for Coleman. Keep DeCoud in.

2. Agree. I do thing Nick's 'natural' position is WLB though.

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#1 What do we need most and at what position? You know it's a DE , it's not even debatable. And It just might be we are all misreading and judging the DEs in the bottom of the first. But no matter what . Lets just say that both players are ranked about the same and they are BTW. How could you not go DE???? Duh!!! I happen to think Graham is underrated only because of his hight. Let me tell you neighbor , you better be glad he is a little short or he would be the #1 ranked DE in this draft of a lot of good ones.

#2 If we don't go DE I think you can count on it that we will go OL , best available! And I wouldn't mind this at all but a LBer in the first in a draft of a bunch of good ones we could take latter is just not going to happen.

And I know Spoon is a good LBer. but you have to use common sense.

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Okay, here we go again...

Let me start off by saying I like what Spoon has to offer any team and I hope he doesn't end up somewhere else the NFC South, and I wouldn't be completely bothered by the pick if we end up going that route.

An OLB in the first would mean either benching Peterson (vet leadership/coordination on field) or Nicholas (awesome 1st-year start and developed well throughout the season.) While Peterson slowed down, and it would be nice to have Spoon train under Peterson, We need Peterson on the field for more than his tackles and coverage. Nicholas would be stunted in growth if we took him off the field. Guy was showing real promise after being absent from the first half of the season. There are also several solid prospects to be had in the 2nd (assuming we trade up) and the 3rd round at OLB.

Here goes part of the DE argument:

We ranked in the bottom third in sacks as well as pass yards allowed. You need good players on the line to get sacks, at least decent coverage, and actually have them pass (in other words, stop the run.) We had no problem getting to 3rd down last year. We did have a problem getting off the field on 3rd down, though.

Now, the addition of Robinson and the development of whoever our #2 will be will certainly help with the 'coverage sacks.' It's a mutualistic relationship though, pressure creates mistakes (misplaced passes, throw aways, interceptions, etc,) and not to mention sacks (which are always dope on 3rd down, and that way we could avoid them passing altogether.)

You may be thinking, "if we get an OLB that can rush the passer, we will solv both problems!" Well, maybe. We can't rush the guy every time, though, and like I said, this draft has a bunch of great OLB prospects to be had at a time when the DE skill is diminishing.

You may be thinking, "We already have Biermann and Sidbury! Give them a chance!" Well, they both have potential, but no promise as of right now. In addition to that, we will eventually need a replacement for Abe. Thats two DE spots that will need improving within a few years.

You may be thinking, "PJ will be back, and will add the pressure needed for Abe and company to flourish." Yeah, he will help I believe. However, we only saw him for 2 games guys and that doesn't prove much (trust me, I love him so far, but impact is not proved in 1.2 games.) You also need to consider the fact that he is coming off injury. As I said before--no guarantees. He may be slower for a while, he may get injured again.

We need a consistent pass rush. Babs is a good example. Guy was really consistent. Which brings me to my last point. Remember what happened last year guys? This guy has a chance of being suspended for several games. If he's out 4 games... imagine how much of an impact he has when he's in. We don't want a huge piece like that missing to kill us (thats a potential 4th of the season!) If anything, the extra skill at the DE will help us through if that problem arises.

TL; DR: OLB's are good in the 2nd/3rd round too; Abe will need his spot filled, too, soon; can't put all stock in Jerry's health/production; Babs might be gone for 4 games; DE makes the LBs and secondary better anyway.

Luckily, TD is smart enough to evaluate all possibilities. This is just an opinion by someone from the outside looking in. I feel pretty confident that DE is our best choice for the first.

Very well thought out, intelligent and accurate assessment of this reasoning. +1

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C'mon people, I understand pass rush is a need right now but when was the last time a top DE made an impact their first couple of years. DE's is one of the hardest position on defense to transfer into. You have to 1. Rush the QB well. 2. Contain the rush. 3. Contain the QB. 4. Help keep OL off LB's and much more. Many DE's do well in college and then come into the pro's and get demolished! WHY? If i remember correctly JA98 said in college he was able to beat OL with just pure athleticism. In the pros EVERYBODY is athletic so the DE's must be developed.

Back to my point the last TOP DE to come in and make an impact was...I can't even name ONE (maybe Jared Allen....who was taken in the latter round way back in 04 DRAFT) DE to become playmaker needs time to develope and we already have 2 developing. However it seems that every year there are a couple of LB each year who can come in and make an immediate impact. EX Lofton, Willis, Beason, Clay Matthews, Brian Cushing, and even Lauriniatis.

If you want immediate impact GO LB or if you want another top DE who is overhyped( Chris Long, Derick Harvey, Gaines Adam(RIP), JA98, Gholeston, Jarvis Moss just to name a few) and will need time to developed even though they are top pick Go DE.

Understand that yes its early still to tell if the DE's above are bust or not but we know they weren't immediate impact their first year even though they were top picks. But that the issue we need immediate impact now!

This^^^^^ +1 to you my intelligent friend.

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This^^^^^ +1 to you my intelligent friend.

Actually that is even more of a reason to draft a DE instead of a LB considering that our leading DE is goign to be gone in two years, and our 1st round DE is a bust. WE could draft a later round LB to make an impact, or we could wait until next year where there is a good group of LB talent that we coudl draft in the 1st round. DAvis is not a pass rusher, JA98 is a bust, ABe is getting old, Sidbury is a good 2 years away, Biermann is getting to the point where he is consistent, but still struggles mightly against the run at LDE.

Nicholas is young and improving, Lofton is young and improving, Peterson is old, but solid, Adkins is like Sidbury, but has some potential, but as it has already been pointed out it takes less time for a LB to develop and make an impact than it does a DE. One more thing Matthews was significant to his team because he rushed the passer on 3rd downs, so if he can show that he can get to the QB with his hand in the ground, and Orakpo was a DE on passing downs and had 12 sacks, which basically shows if you draft the right talent, and have good players around the rookie they can get to the QB.

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I think I'd prefer us to go DE. The LBs we have are serviceable, but we are in desperate need of pass rush help.

It's funny though just b/c it's all going to be dictated by what the teams in front of us do. When OTs starting jumping off the board in '08 we had to trade up and go after Sam Baker. I feel like if all the DEs start jumping off the board again we'll be forced to go DE with our pick and vice-versa.

Agreed!

Actually, if DE's start jumping off the board early, we will not reach for one. Instead we will gladly take the other strong position of need and grab a high value LB like spoon... question is, who will Pittsburg take? They need a LB but also need OL so it will be interesting indeed.

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1. i would be BEYOND pissed if we sat decoud down for coleman

2. we need an upgrade at WLB, not SLB. nick played good for us last year.

You going to have to be pissed because if William Moore hadn't gotten himself injured Coleman plays at his nature position(FS) and Moore at SS. Coleman had 3 int and 95 tackles in 08. He had no int in 09. Thomas DeCoud had 68 tackles and 3 int in 09. Based on those stats, Coleman was more productive at FS then DeCoud.

Why do we need an upgrade at WLB? Peterson was more productive in 09 than he was in 07 and 08. I honestly don't believe Rennie Curran will slip to the 3rd rd, but if he does we need to take him. He will be much more productive then Nicholas. If Peterson starts to slow down after 2010, then thats when we need to draft a young stud to replace him. This ain't the year to do that.

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You going to have to be pissed because if William Moore hadn't gotten himself injured Coleman plays at his nature position(FS) and Moore at SS. Coleman had 3 int and 95 tackles in 08. He had no int in 09. Thomas DeCoud had 68 tackles and 3 int in 09. Based on those stats, Coleman was more productive at FS then DeCoud.

Why do we need an upgrade at WLB? Peterson was more productive in 09 than he was in 07 and 08. I honestly don't believe Rennie Curran will slip to the 3rd rd, but if he does we need to take him. He will be much more productive then Nicholas. If Peterson starts to slow down after 2010, then thats when we need to draft a young stud to replace him. This ain't the year to do that.

Coleman was a 5 year vet with those stats, Decoud was a 1st year starter. Decoud has much more range than Coleman, Decoud is a bigger, better hitter than Coleman, DEcoud is cheaper than Coleman, DEcoud could have had at least 5-6 picks. Coleman has lost his spot at FS period. Decoud was our 2nd best player on defense last year, and he was the most consistent and that is alot for a 1st year starter. YOu trippin if you think that Coleman is going to be starting at FS. There was even talk in the offseason last year that DEcoud was goign to play FS and coleman was going to move to SS, Coleman even said it himself in a radio interview.

I agree with what you are saying regarding a LB though.

Edited by Jaymadd
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You going to have to be pissed because if William Moore hadn't gotten himself injured Coleman plays at his nature position(FS) and Moore at SS. Coleman had 3 int and 95 tackles in 08. He had no int in 09. Thomas DeCoud had 68 tackles and 3 int in 09. Based on those stats, Coleman was more productive at FS then DeCoud.

Why do we need an upgrade at WLB? Peterson was more productive in 09 than he was in 07 and 08. I honestly don't believe Rennie Curran will slip to the 3rd rd, but if he does we need to take him. He will be much more productive then Nicholas. If Peterson starts to slow down after 2010, then thats when we need to draft a young stud to replace him. This ain't the year to do that.

More like last year Coleman had to make up for deficiencies in the DL and LB corps last year.

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Coleman was a 5 year vet with those stats, Decoud was a 1st year starter. Decoud has much more range than Coleman, Decoud is a bigger, better hitter than Coleman, DEcoud is cheaper than Coleman, DEcoud could have had at least 5-6 picks. Coleman has lost his spot at FS period. Decoud was our 2nd best player on defense last year, and he was the most consistent and that is alot for a 1st year starter. YOu trippin if you think that Coleman is going to be starting at FS. There was even talk in the offseason last year that DEcoud was goign to play FS and coleman was going to move to SS, Coleman even said it himself in a radio interview.

I agree with what you are saying regarding a LB though.

Come on dude. You're not thinking logically. DeCoud was a 1st yr starter? Well, Coleman collected 100 tackles and 2 int in his rookie season. Speaking of size...well DeCoud is 6'0 197lbs and Coleman 5'10 205lbs. Coleman has not lost a step so stop looking for excuses to discredit the young man. Say what you want but the man is a very productive football player.

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Come on dude. You're not thinking logically. DeCoud was a 1st yr starter? Well, Coleman collected 100 tackles and 2 int in his rookie season. Speaking of size...well DeCoud is 6'0 197lbs and Coleman 5'10 205lbs. Coleman has not lost a step so stop looking for excuses to discredit the young man. Say what you want but the man is a very productive football player.

I didnt discredit Coleman, I am just pointing out the fact that Decoud has way more upside than Coleman, he is faster, more range, and is a bigger hitter, I guess you dont agree with me, when i say that about Decoud. Coleman is solid and he will continue to play SS, unless he losses his position to William Moore during the offseason, but I highly doubt that Coleman will be back at FS, barring injury. Coach Smith stated that DEcoud was one of the most consistent players this season. Coleman even stated himself in a radio interview last offseason that he might be moving to the SS position with Decoud taking over the FS position. I actually think I am typing/thinking pretty logically.

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Come on dude. You're not thinking logically. DeCoud was a 1st yr starter? Well, Coleman collected 100 tackles and 2 int in his rookie season. Speaking of size...well DeCoud is 6'0 197lbs and Coleman 5'10 205lbs. Coleman has not lost a step so stop looking for excuses to discredit the young man. Say what you want but the man is a very productive football player.

I like Coleman, he's a great tackler and played well at FS last year.

That said, he's more of a liability in coverage than you would want in a SS. He's just a little too slow.

Thing is, DeCoud is a baller with a higher ceiling and played solid in his first year starting.

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C'mon people, I understand pass rush is a need right now but when was the last time a top DE made an impact their first couple of years. DE's is one of the hardest position on defense to transfer into. You have to 1. Rush the QB well. 2. Contain the rush. 3. Contain the QB. 4. Help keep OL off LB's and much more. Many DE's do well in college and then come into the pro's and get demolished! WHY? If i remember correctly JA98 said in college he was able to beat OL with just pure athleticism. In the pros EVERYBODY is athletic so the DE's must be developed.

Back to my point the last TOP DE to come in and make an impact was...I can't even name ONE (maybe Jared Allen....who was taken in the latter round way back in 04 DRAFT) DE to become playmaker needs time to develope and we already have 2 developing. However it seems that every year there are a couple of LB each year who can come in and make an immediate impact. EX Lofton, Willis, Beason, Clay Matthews, Brian Cushing, and even Lauriniatis.

If you want immediate impact GO LB or if you want another top DE who is overhyped( Chris Long, Derick Harvey, Gaines Adam(RIP), JA98, Gholeston, Jarvis Moss just to name a few) and will need time to developed even though they are top pick Go DE.

Understand that yes its early still to tell if the DE's above are bust or not but we know they weren't immediate impact their first year even though they were top picks. But that the issue we need immediate impact now!

Good post, couldn't have said it better myself.

I still think many on here are under estimating what we already have in Biermann and Sidbury. It takes 2-3 years for a DE to start having an impact for the most part. Guess what? Biermann is going into year # 3... Despite many saying he is better suited to be a RDE I think he can hold down the LDE position for us.

This is why I think Spoon should be the choice. I would not be upset if we picked Graham though.

I don't like Griffen... sounds like JA98 all over again. Griffen... "With eight sacks this season the Arizona native earned a second team All Pac-10 nomination. Griffen has relied on purely speed and spurts of a powerful bull rush to wreck havoc in the backfield. To truly succeed in the NFL, he will have to add at least two more dependable pass-rush moves to his repertoire."

Edited by CraigSmackDaddy
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