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The CB and D-Line debate


hakim24
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In 3 out of 5 games, our D-Line has dominated. If we draft a D-Lineman early, I honestly do not see how they would see the field. They haven't put up a bunch of sacks, but I blame that on our CBs.

Sometimes it is just that split second of good coverage that allows your D-Line to make those sacks and our CBs are not allowing us that time.

1.) Chris Houston- He plays his man fairly well, but the problem is when teams actually throw at him. He will never learn to turn his head simply because it is not in his nature. He usually is pretty close to his man, but good things usually don't happen when teams throw to his side.

2.) Brian Williams- Out for the year now, but he was the most targeted player on our defense. He makes some plays, but gives up more catches than any other CB.

3.) Brent Grimes- Honestly, I think Grimes is our best CB and that is not saying much. Teams target him a bunch, but he really has held his own this year in coverage. He also is a pretty good tackler and made some nice plays on 3rd downs.

4.) Chevis Jackson- Done. He doesn't fit our new Man coverage scheme.

5.) Chris Owens- I am hoping he can do something, but it concerns me that he hasn't jumped Chevis Jackson and probably won't see a snap this year besides STs.

6.) Tye Hill- Has not even been active and that concerns me as well. He has been here for quite a bit of time now and I don't think he is impressing the staff.

Out of all our 6 CBs, we do not have any legitimate starters. With the emergence of Jamaal Anderson at DT, our D-Line has played Lights out. They are stuffing the run AND collapsing the pocket consistently. CB is out biggest weakness and bringing in another DE or DT would probably mess up that rhythm.

We HAVE to get some legitimate CBs somehow. It will be hard to get a good one in FA because we would probably have to give up early picks.

CB, OLB, and OT seem to be our biggest needs (in that order) and when Jerry gets back, I truly can foresee a dominate D-Line for years to come.

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Great post... Excatly what i was thinking but i was also think is are there gonna be any CB's wortha a 1st rd pick around when we draft in the mid to late 20's... i'm kinda hoping that TD is working the phones triny to put a deal together for some kinda CB help because with williams out it could get ugly.

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Great post... Excatly what i was thinking but i was also think is are there gonna be any CB's wortha a 1st rd pick around when we draft in the mid to late 20's... i'm kinda hoping that TD is working the phones triny to put a deal together for some kinda CB help because with williams out it could get ugly.

I just want a CB who has the physical tools to become a #1 CB. It really doesn't matter to me what round we draft them in.....

We just need someone who combines speed, size, and playmaking ability. We can let the coaches do the refining.

I do think it is a good chance that we go CB with our 1st round pick though. If Haden or Lindley is available, I can't see us passing either of them up.

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If Lindley could put on some more weight (he's about 177lbs right now) I would consider him. But his speed might be a negative against him. He ran a 4.53 at a Kentucky pro day but 40 numbers are overrated. I'm skeptical that this years class has any true possible #1 corners besides Haden.

No Lindley is about 185 now. He put on some weight this offseason. His arms are REALLY long and he is about 6'1.

I know he ran a 4.53 at his pro day, but sometimes the difference between a 4.5 and a 4.4 is the start up. He will work on that and probably run a better at the combine.

I actually like Lindley more than Haden. Haden is very good, but he ALWAYS has safety help and can really focus his attention on underneath routes. I want to see him on an island without that help.

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Very good post and I agree with you 100% on Houston, Williams, Grimes (though he is at best a nickel CB, he is just too big of a mismatch because of his height. But his tackling and play against smaller, quicker receivers in the slot will be helpful if we ever get a couple more legitimate corners on the outside to start), Chevis and Hill. However I have much higher hopes for Owens than you do (I think his ceiling is a reliable #2 starter and his floor is a nickel/dime CB, I am not surprised that he hasn't gotten time this year as a rookie at all. If he isn't getting any time next year then I will be a bit alarmed, but not as a rookie).

I also hope we get a CB upgrade this offseason, I am just not sure that it will/should come from the draft. I know it will be hard to sign a CB who can make an immediate impact as a #1 or #2 corner, but we have to make an effort to bring a guy like that in. We can't draft a CB who is going to make an immediate impact other than playing the nickel this year, and how is that any better than drafting a LE who would rotate and develop behind JA or Chauncey at that position?

I don't know who will be available, but we have to make an effort to sign someone that can solidify one of our starting CB positions. It doesn't have to be a big free agent signing, but a solid starter needs to be brought in at CB.

As far as the DL goes I guess I am with-holding judgment until we play the Saints. If we play well against them then I will begin buying into our defensive line playing well, but playing well and pressuring Cutler is much different than pressuring Brady (which we didn't do) and pressuring Brees (which will be hard to do). If we are serious about being perennial playoff contenders the LE position needs to be upgraded with a better pass rusher. If we sign Aaron Kampman that is great, but I have a lot of doubts about that happening.

If we signed a CB in free agency who hypothetically would start at CB, had Grimes as a Nickel corner and if Owens develops into a #2 starter our secondary would be much better. Plus we might have 3 guys who could play man or zone on any given play, giving us more flexibility with our blitz packages. That is ultimately what I want. The ability to play man or zone on any given play and not having to shuffle CB's and DL players in and out based off of what kind of package we are going to run. That is entirely too predictable.

So we are in a bit of a pickle here. I don't think this CB class is anything to write home about really and there aren't a lot of LE prospects who can rush the passer like we really need. Morgan might be a good LE if he pans out but I am skeptical about him being available when we select. If he is there it would be tempting to take him despite his inconsistency that he has shown thus far, but that happens to even the best of pass rushers (see Abe against the Pats). It would be between Morgan and Griffen for me if I had my choice of a LE in round 1. I just don't like any of the corners enough to spend more than an early 2nd rounder on them (except Haden, but he will likely go top 15 regardless of his ability to play on an island).

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Very good post and I agree with you 100% on Houston, Williams, Grimes (though he is at best a nickel CB, he is just too big of a mismatch because of his height. But his tackling and play against smaller, quicker receivers in the slot will be helpful if we ever get a couple more legitimate corners on the outside to start), Chevis and Hill. However I have much higher hopes for Owens than you do (I think his ceiling is a reliable #2 starter and his floor is a nickel/dime CB, I am not surprised that he hasn't gotten time this year as a rookie at all. If he isn't getting any time next year then I will be a bit alarmed, but not as a rookie).

I also hope we get a CB upgrade this offseason, I am just not sure that it will/should come from the draft. I know it will be hard to sign a CB who can make an immediate impact as a #1 or #2 corner, but we have to make an effort to bring a guy like that in. We can't draft a CB who is going to make an immediate impact other than playing the nickel this year, and how is that any better than drafting a LE who would rotate and develop behind JA or Chauncey at that position?

I don't know who will be available, but we have to make an effort to sign someone that can solidify one of our starting CB positions. It doesn't have to be a big free agent signing, but a solid starter needs to be brought in at CB.

As far as the DL goes I guess I am with-holding judgment until we play the Saints. If we play well against them then I will begin buying into our defensive line playing well, but playing well and pressuring Cutler is much different than pressuring Brady (which we didn't do) and pressuring Brees (which will be hard to do). If we are serious about being perennial playoff contenders the LE position needs to be upgraded with a better pass rusher. If we sign Aaron Kampman that is great, but I have a lot of doubts about that happening.

If we signed a CB in free agency who hypothetically would start at CB, had Grimes as a Nickel corner and if Owens develops into a #2 starter our secondary would be much better. Plus we might have 3 guys who could play man or zone on any given play, giving us more flexibility with our blitz packages. That is ultimately what I want. The ability to play man or zone on any given play and not having to shuffle CB's and DL players in and out based off of what kind of package we are going to run. That is entirely too predictable.

So we are in a bit of a pickle here. I don't think this CB class is anything to write home about really and there aren't a lot of LE prospects who can rush the passer like we really need. Morgan might be a good LE if he pans out but I am skeptical about him being available when we select. If he is there it would be tempting to take him despite his inconsistency that he has shown thus far, but that happens to even the best of pass rushers (see Abe against the Pats). It would be between Morgan and Griffen for me if I had my choice of a LE in round 1. I just don't like any of the corners enough to spend more than an early 2nd rounder on them (except Haden, but he will likely go top 15 regardless of his ability to play on an island).

I definitely think Owens has potential, but it still concerns me that Chevis is ahead of him when he doesn't really fit our scheme anymore. I know he is a rookie, but if he plays next year, it will almost be like another rookie year in that he has very limited experience.

Chevis Jackson playing last year is a good example of what I wanted to see with Owens this year. Not necessarily a starter, but someone who contributes as either a Nickel or Dime Back. That way, by year two, he could be in contention for a bigger role.

We do need to bring in a quality CB, but what team is really going to just let one walk without getting anything?.... especially considering that most of the FA's will be Restricted.

If we are going to do it, we almost have to do it through the draft or else we will be giving up early picks.

The difference between drafting a CB and a D-Lineman is that our D-Lineman are all pretty solid and it will be a uphill battle for any rookie D-Lineman to crack that lineup. Signing Aaron Kampman would honestly be the best move we could make because he is likely going to be unrestricted and would immediately be a force.

At CB, we have nobody who really is solidified as a starter......which ultimately means that the CB can come in and get significant playing time. If it's only as a Nickel, I am fine with that. I just want someone with #1 CB potential..... we don't have anybody on our roster with #1 type tools yet and we need that with the new scheme we have adopted.

I definitely want to see what happens against the Saints too, but that Patriots game was not a very good measuring stick. The reason is because we NEVER blitzed. The Giants have the best D-Line in the league, but sometimes your front 4 just can't get it done alone.... just like in the Saints game. One thing that I have noticed is when we blitz more, it seems to give our D-Line more confidence.

Another problem I would have with drafting a LE is that JA98 and Biermann are a great combo. Both are very young and could be mainstays for a long time. I don't think any LE would be as productive as those two have been together.

Plus Jamaal Anderson suddenly has value on our team. He has played very well in this DT/DE role. IF we were planning on getting rid of Jamaal, I would be much more willing to draft a LDE.

What do you think of Trevard Lindley out of Kentucky? I know he is hurt now, but he is really a special player and has all the tools to become a good player.

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Sorrk Hakim but a DLineman will have more impact than a CB. WE are young at CB and it takes time for CB to get accumulated to the NFL, and it appears that our system that we are converting too puts alot of pressure on CB, so that would be more on a rookie CB, which is the reason why Jackson and Owens are getting alot of playing time, they need to learn. I am really not impressed with the CB talent in the draft, there is not a clear Stud at CB, so it would be a waste to draft a CB early who probably wont see the field. I think that if anything we need to pick up a FA CB, that is the only option if you are looking for a Starting CB. AT least with a DE you can use him on a rotational basis, at the basic level in pass rushing situations to make it simple on him.

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I definitely think Owens has potential, but it still concerns me that Chevis is ahead of him when he doesn't really fit our scheme anymore. I know he is a rookie, but if he plays next year, it will almost be like another rookie year in that he has very limited experience.

Chevis Jackson playing last year is a good example of what I wanted to see with Owens this year. Not necessarily a starter, but someone who contributes as either a Nickel or Dime Back. That way, by year two, he could be in contention for a bigger role.

We do need to bring in a quality CB, but what team is really going to just let one walk without getting anything?.... especially considering that most of the FA's will be Restricted.

If we are going to do it, we almost have to do it through the draft or else we will be giving up early picks.

The difference between drafting a CB and a D-Lineman is that our D-Lineman are all pretty solid and it will be a uphill battle for any rookie D-Lineman to crack that lineup. Signing Aaron Kampman would honestly be the best move we could make because he is likely going to be unrestricted and would immediately be a force.

At CB, we have nobody who really is solidified as a starter......which ultimately means that the CB can come in and get significant playing time. If it's only as a Nickel, I am fine with that. I just want someone with #1 CB potential..... we don't have anybody on our roster with #1 type tools yet and we need that with the new scheme we have adopted.

I definitely want to see what happens against the Saints too, but that Patriots game was not a very good measuring stick. The reason is because we NEVER blitzed. The Giants have the best D-Line in the league, but sometimes your front 4 just can't get it done alone.... just like in the Saints game. One thing that I have noticed is when we blitz more, it seems to give our D-Line more confidence.

Another problem I would have with drafting a LE is that JA98 and Biermann are a great combo. Both are very young and could be mainstays for a long time. I don't think any LE would be as productive as those two have been together.

Plus Jamaal Anderson suddenly has value on our team. He has played very well in this DT/DE role. IF we were planning on getting rid of Jamaal, I would be much more willing to draft a LDE.

What do you think of Trevard Lindley out of Kentucky? I know he is hurt now, but he is really a special player and has all the tools to become a good player.

Chevis is not going to be the starter on the outside, he is a Nickel back at the most. The starters on the outside would be between Hill and Owens.

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My .02 cents

If we have a chance in the first, to get an Elite LDE, then I think we do. If not, I could see us going OLB. Our DTs are fine for now. JA98 has really stepped up and It seems as if his LDE spot needs to be filled with a true LDE. We have a lot of REs on our team right now, and one will eventually replace Abe.

With the other options, CB, OL, OLB,

OLB-I think we would address OLB next, for Peterson's sake. Maybe Weatherspoon will be there or even Spikes. I like those two a lot for our WLB spot. However, if they're not there, I like Clayton in the 4th.

CB-Corner back would be next, but is there really any 1st round talent aside from Lindley? I don't think he'll be there by our pick, if so I would hope we'd take him. I don't think TD would spend a first on a CB. Perrish Cox would be my choice in the 3rd, if we don't address this need in FA, which we should.

we have so much good young talent on our team, but that's it.

Owens- future starter, my hopes anyway. He has the most potential of our young ones.

Jackson- will be our future nickel back, I don't think he would stray away from this spot.

Grimes- dimeback, but has been doing better than Houston.

Houston- disposable IMO.

Hill- we will see.

If we could have atleast ONE player via draft or FA come in who can start immediately then be an impact player, then we would be set.

MOST IMPORTANT position of need right now, and I'm not sure there are many of the immediate impact players in the draft, only a few, mostly hidden gems. Too many "project" player type players in this draft, which we have enough of.

OL- We need a future starting C and possibly OT. Depends how the class pans out, would like to get this through FA though considering this C class is soft.

DT- We get Peria bak next year anyway, but JA98 is doing good(not holding my breath). We have Walker who is just as good as anyone we would draft later on IMO. This may not be a need considering how well our DLINE is playing NOW.

RB- I think this is going to become a need. Norwood isn't too reliable to be honest, and that's why he never gets that much playing time, very fragile. We need another change of pace back, like a DeAngelo Williams type player, who can take on people but better year juke them out. Norwood was good, but there's better.

my draft.

1. Brandon Graham

3. Perrish Cox

4. Keenan Clayton

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Sorrk Hakim but a DLineman will have more impact than a CB. WE are young at CB and it takes time for CB to get accumulated to the NFL, and it appears that our system that we are converting too puts alot of pressure on CB, so that would be more on a rookie CB, which is the reason why Jackson and Owens are getting alot of playing time, they need to learn. I am really not impressed with the CB talent in the draft, there is not a clear Stud at CB, so it would be a waste to draft a CB early who probably wont see the field. I think that if anything we need to pick up a FA CB, that is the only option if you are looking for a Starting CB. AT least with a DE you can use him on a rotational basis, at the basic level in pass rushing situations to make it simple on him.

How will another D-Lineman have more impact? Lets look at Sidbury..... what is the main reason why he gets very few snaps in the game? Its because every DE we have is a solid player and it would be hard for him to match their production..... especially as a rookie.

Adding another DE would simply eliminate Sidbury from the rotation and reduce JA98's role quite a bit.

We have had this discussion many times, but I still cannot see why you would want to draft another D-Lineman when our secondary looks like trash.

It is safe to say that our D-Line has dominated in 3 out of the 5 games.... why mess that up by bringing in a rookie who probably won't be able to match their production?

On the other hand, why not get one of the most talented CBs in the draft? At a position where we have NO legitimate starters and not much potential imo besides Owens?

You probably aren't impressed with the class because you are looking for some huge numbers and somebody who is a household name. Trevard Lindley is the perfect example of a guy that you may have never really looked at, but is one of the top CBs in college football.

Just because Owens isn't seeing the field, doesn't mean that another guy we draft won't see the field. Owens didn't do a thing in Preseason that would justify him playing. He just isn't ready. He is a small school player who probably never faced a NFL WR or QB prospect in college.

IF you think we are going to get any RELEVANT CB in FA without giving up a 1st rounder, you just aren't really being logical. Nobody is just going to give away players.

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How will another D-Lineman have more impact? Lets look at Sidbury..... what is the main reason why he gets very few snaps in the game? Its because every DE we have is a solid player and it would be hard for him to match their production..... especially as a rookie.

Adding another DE would simply eliminate Sidbury from the rotation and reduce JA98's role quite a bit.

We have had this discussion many times, but I still cannot see why you would want to draft another D-Lineman when our secondary looks like trash.

It is safe to say that our D-Line has dominated in 3 out of the 5 games.... why mess that up by bringing in a rookie who probably won't be able to match their production?

On the other hand, why not get one of the most talented CBs in the draft? At a position where we have NO legitimate starters and not much potential imo besides Owens?

You probably aren't impressed with the class because you are looking for some huge numbers and somebody who is a household name. Trevard Lindley is the perfect example of a guy that you may have never really looked at, but is one of the top CBs in college football.

Just because Owens isn't seeing the field, doesn't mean that another guy we draft won't see the field. Owens didn't do a thing in Preseason that would justify him playing. He just isn't ready. He is a small school player who probably never faced a NFL WR or QB prospect in college.

IF you think we are going to get any RELEVANT CB in FA without giving up a 1st rounder, you just aren't really being logical. Nobody is just going to give away players.

There is not any CB talent that would come in and immediately help us in the Secondary. If we are going to help this secondary it is going to take some cash via FA, not a rookie. WE need an elite talent at DE, a 1st or 2nd round pick, and yes i think that will player will have more impact than a rookie CB. Sidbury, Beirmann can battle it out for the RDE spot, with a player like Morgan or Griffen at LDE

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i think we need to focus mostly on CB, OLB, and OL.

Even though i know d-line pressure will make any teams db's look better, i still think we need to have cb's that can match up in man coverage. right now we dont. Houston is garbage, he is our worst CB imo. I've been saying it since the beginning of last year, and now other teams are picking up on it. I love Grimes, but hes just too small. And now Williams is out, and i dont think we were planning on keeping him for next year. There are a lot of options for next offseason. I think we should draft someone that has the size, speed, and skills to play man. Like Patrick Robinson, Ras-I Dowling, Trevard Lindley, Jerome Murphy, or Brandon Ghee. Or even later round prospects like Akwasi Owusu-Ansah, Alterraun Verner, or Myron Lewis.

We are also going to need someone to replace Mike Peterson. Hes an awesome quick fix, but we need a long term solution.

Same goes with Center. McClure is playing pretty well this year, but hes getting pretty old.

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There is not any CB talent that would come in and immediately help us in the Secondary. If we are going to help this secondary it is going to take some cash via FA, not a rookie. WE need an elite talent at DE, a 1st or 2nd round pick, and yes i think that will player will have more impact than a rookie CB. Sidbury, Beirmann can battle it out for the RDE spot, with a player like Morgan or Griffen at LDE

How do you know that there aren't any CBs who can come in and help our secondary? Even if they can't do it in year one, we need to get someone who has the potential to do it in the future.

Its going to take MORE than cash to get a FA. If we got a good FA CB you can pretty much rule out the possibility of us getting a good DE because we would probably have to give up our 1st round pick.

Would you want to have to pay a player a huge contract AND give up our 1st round pick? I know I wouldn't.

And Like I said before if we add another DE, Sidbury will be eliminated from the rotation. I think his talent is too great to do that.

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How do you know that there aren't any CBs who can come in and help our secondary? Even if they can't do it in year one, we need to get someone who has the potential to do it in the future.

Its going to take MORE than cash to get a FA. If we got a good FA CB you can pretty much rule out the possibility of us getting a good DE because we would probably have to give up our 1st round pick.

Would you want to have to pay a player a huge contract AND give up our 1st round pick? I know I wouldn't.

And Like I said before if we add another DE, Sidbury will be eliminated from the rotation. I think his talent is too great to do that.

Why would we have to give up our 1st if we sign a FA CB, LOL, slow down Hakim. WE already have young talent at CB in Owens and believe it or not the Coaching staff seems to have high hopes for Grimes, he proved that he deserves to start and Williams was not replacing him the last two games if you really pay attention to it. I know that i am in the minority of posters who have high hopes for Grimes but i do. We have not seen what we have in Hill, so there is still a ?mark there. I dont know the playbook but it seems our coverages are different from last year and it seems that new CB are going to need time and experience in order to be effective, so i dont think a Rookie drafted in the lower rounds hopefully will be able to help us as much as a Dlineman, even an Olineman.

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Why would we have to give up our 1st if we sign a FA CB, LOL, slow down Hakim. WE already have young talent at CB in Owens and believe it or not the Coaching staff seems to have high hopes for Grimes, he proved that he deserves to start and Williams was not replacing him the last two games if you really pay attention to it. I know that i am in the minority of posters who have high hopes for Grimes but i do. We have not seen what we have in Hill, so there is still a ?mark there. I dont know the playbook but it seems our coverages are different from last year and it seems that new CB are going to need time and experience in order to be effective, so i dont think a Rookie drafted in the lower rounds hopefully will be able to help us as much as a Dlineman, even an Olineman.

We would have to give up a 1st because any player who has less than 6 years of experience are only RFAs. That means a team could put a tender or Franchise Tag and force a team to give them something for that player.

I said Grimes is our best cover CB, but he gets manhandled sometimes and he is clearly over matched against bigger WRs. He would be a great Nickel, but I just don't like him as a starter. Williams wasn't replacing him because we played mostly Nickel against two of the better TEs in the league.

We don't know what we have in Hill, but he has been here for a long time and has yet to be activated..... Hopefully he can work out, but I am not expecting him to be much better than what we have now.

Owens is undersized and coming from a small school where he didn't face an NFL WR. He has a very steep learning curve and his Preseason was very disappointing imo. I want him to continue to grow, but I honestly see him as a NB and swing starter similar to Grimes.

I said I want to draft a CB in the 1st or 2nd round. I hope you are not comparing a 1st round DE's impact to a late round CB's impact. I want an early pick used on a CB so that we can get one of the most talented players in the country. I agree that we don't need anymore developmental players.

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I have been thinking about this some more and here is the conclusion I came to.

I think we tend to forget that last year was the first year of our rebuilding phase. No one expects us to take steps backwards and not go 10-6 or 11-5 again this year (and if we keep playing well in the red zone that might happen), but that doesn't mean that we are ready to be Super Bowl contenders yet. We still need to bring in as much talent as we can, even if they don't start right away. We got lucky when we got 3 immediate starters with our first three selections in Ryan, Baker and Lofton, that doesn't always happen. So even if we draft a player in the 1st round there isn't any reason to force him into the starting lineup. Sometimes 1st rounders (especially players at positions that require development like QB, DE, WR, CB or S) need time to adjust before they can make an impact. Roddy White is living proof of this, DeCoud (even though he wasn't a round 1 pick) is another example of a safety needing time to come into his own, and I hope that Chris Owens will be another example of that.

My point is this: The more I think about it the less likely it is that we are going to draft a guy in the 1st round that is going to come in and make an immediate impact as a starter. The only way that will happen is if we pick a RT, a RB or maybe an OLB. To be honest I would not like to draft any of those positions in the 1st round. So what does that mean? Our 1st round pick might not come in and start right away. Is that really the worst thing? Sure, it would be nice if we could draft a corner that would walk in and lock down a starting position, but how often does that really happen? Not often. And it would be nice to be able to draft a LE who could walk in, play well versus the run and get 8 sacks a season to take the pressure off of the rest of our DL and our secondary, but that probably won't happen either.

So really there isn't much of a point to argue "Oh, CB will make more of an impact than DE" or "No, DE will make more impact than CB" because at most we will probably have a CB starting in the Nickel if we draft one in the 1st round and at most we will have a LE rotating behind Chauncey or JA98 at LE. Either way they are not going to be starting, they would be getting some playing time ideally, but they would be making rookie mistakes and a limited impact.

The reason I am still leaning towards drafting a LE in round 1 like Everson Griffen is because I think that if we draft a LE like him (or Derrick Morgan if we had a chance at him, but there's a fat chance of that) and we work him in slowly as a rookie, develop him and then let him attempt to emerge as a starter in his 2nd season we could come away with an impact defensive end that could be a cornerstone of our defensive line. Does he need developing? Sure, but I think he has top 10 potential and I think with a DL of Abe, Griffen, Chauncey, Bierman and Sidbury we would have 2 quality starters, a solid player to rotate at both spots versus the run in Chauncey and 2 good speed rushing rotational players in Bierman in Sidbury. That is my ideal defensive line.

I really don't think we need a true #1 shut down corner. Sure it would be nice, but I think you can win games with a couple of solid starters at corner even if they aren't big playmakers. The Patriots exemplified this (before Asante emerged), the Colts won a superbowl with solid CB's and the Steelers don't have stud corners either. What they all had was a good pass rush, good safety play (great in the case of the Colts and Steelers), good linebackers and solid cornerback play. The Giants did the same when they won the Superbowl 2 years ago as well. And I guess if I had to choose I would pay a DE who can rush the passer a big contract rather than a corner. We tried this with DeAngelo Hall already, the 49ers are trying it with Nate Clements, the Raiders have a stud corner in Aso, I could go on but I won't. You don't win games because you have a stud corner, I would much prefer something like the Packers have. They have Al Harris and Charles Woodson, two guys who are reliable starters and can make plays and can play man or zone coverage. Neither one of them commands a huge DeAngelo Hall contract, but they are both effective starters.

So I guess all that is why I want a DE in round 1. And I don't think drafting a LE would take snaps away from Sidbury. If anything it would take them away from Bierman at LE. What I envision is Griffen developing into a good starting LE, Chauncey backing up at RE with Sidbury hopefully developing into an ample replacement for Abe at RE. Then Bierman would back up Griffen at LE. JA98 obviously doesn't fit into this ideal scenario, but we just signed Chauncey to play the run and provide the occasional pass rush, we don't need JA98 around to do the same thing. If we want to slide him in to UT and let him play the run at LE sometimes and the pass at UT sure we can try that, but I would prefer to have 5 DE's (Abe, Griffen, Chauncey, Bierman and Sidbury) with 4-5 DT's (Babs, Jerry, Johnson, JA98 and maybe Lewis or another fa acquisition for depth at NT).

So I guess that is what I think about all that. I would imagine it would take JA98 out of the rotation, not Sidbury. I don't think drafting a LE to be the eventual starter should affect Sidbury at all.

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I have been thinking about this some more and here is the conclusion I came to.

I think we tend to forget that last year was the first year of our rebuilding phase. No one expects us to take steps backwards and not go 10-6 or 11-5 again this year (and if we keep playing well in the red zone that might happen), but that doesn't mean that we are ready to be Super Bowl contenders yet. We still need to bring in as much talent as we can, even if they don't start right away. We got lucky when we got 3 immediate starters with our first three selections in Ryan, Baker and Lofton, that doesn't always happen. So even if we draft a player in the 1st round there isn't any reason to force him into the starting lineup. Sometimes 1st rounders (especially players at positions that require development like QB, DE, WR, CB or S) need time to adjust before they can make an impact. Roddy White is living proof of this, DeCoud (even though he wasn't a round 1 pick) is another example of a safety needing time to come into his own, and I hope that Chris Owens will be another example of that.

My point is this: The more I think about it the less likely it is that we are going to draft a guy in the 1st round that is going to come in and make an immediate impact as a starter. The only way that will happen is if we pick a RT, a RB or maybe an OLB. To be honest I would not like to draft any of those positions in the 1st round. So what does that mean? Our 1st round pick might not come in and start right away. Is that really the worst thing? Sure, it would be nice if we could draft a corner that would walk in and lock down a starting position, but how often does that really happen? Not often. And it would be nice to be able to draft a LE who could walk in, play well versus the run and get 8 sacks a season to take the pressure off of the rest of our DL and our secondary, but that probably won't happen either.

So really there isn't much of a point to argue "Oh, CB will make more of an impact than DE" or "No, DE will make more impact than CB" because at most we will probably have a CB starting in the Nickel if we draft one in the 1st round and at most we will have a LE rotating behind Chauncey or JA98 at LE. Either way they are not going to be starting, they would be getting some playing time ideally, but they would be making rookie mistakes and a limited impact.

The reason I am still leaning towards drafting a LE in round 1 like Everson Griffen is because I think that if we draft a LE like him (or Derrick Morgan if we had a chance at him, but there's a fat chance of that) and we work him in slowly as a rookie, develop him and then let him attempt to emerge as a starter in his 2nd season we could come away with an impact defensive end that could be a cornerstone of our defensive line. Does he need developing? Sure, but I think he has top 10 potential and I think with a DL of Abe, Griffen, Chauncey, Bierman and Sidbury we would have 2 quality starters, a solid player to rotate at both spots versus the run in Chauncey and 2 good speed rushing rotational players in Bierman in Sidbury. That is my ideal defensive line.

I really don't think we need a true #1 shut down corner. Sure it would be nice, but I think you can win games with a couple of solid starters at corner even if they aren't big playmakers. The Patriots exemplified this (before Asante emerged), the Colts won a superbowl with solid CB's and the Steelers don't have stud corners either. What they all had was a good pass rush, good safety play (great in the case of the Colts and Steelers), good linebackers and solid cornerback play. The Giants did the same when they won the Superbowl 2 years ago as well. And I guess if I had to choose I would pay a DE who can rush the passer a big contract rather than a corner. We tried this with DeAngelo Hall already, the 49ers are trying it with Nate Clements, the Raiders have a stud corner in Aso, I could go on but I won't. You don't win games because you have a stud corner, I would much prefer something like the Packers have. They have Al Harris and Charles Woodson, two guys who are reliable starters and can make plays and can play man or zone coverage. Neither one of them commands a huge DeAngelo Hall contract, but they are both effective starters.

So I guess all that is why I want a DE in round 1. And I don't think drafting a LE would take snaps away from Sidbury. If anything it would take them away from Bierman at LE. What I envision is Griffen developing into a good starting LE, Chauncey backing up at RE with Sidbury hopefully developing into an ample replacement for Abe at RE. Then Bierman would back up Griffen at LE. JA98 obviously doesn't fit into this ideal scenario, but we just signed Chauncey to play the run and provide the occasional pass rush, we don't need JA98 around to do the same thing. If we want to slide him in to UT and let him play the run at LE sometimes and the pass at UT sure we can try that, but I would prefer to have 5 DE's (Abe, Griffen, Chauncey, Bierman and Sidbury) with 4-5 DT's (Babs, Jerry, Johnson, JA98 and maybe Lewis or another fa acquisition for depth at NT).

So I guess that is what I think about all that. I would imagine it would take JA98 out of the rotation, not Sidbury. I don't think drafting a LE to be the eventual starter should affect Sidbury at all.

I agree and Hakim one thing that i want to point out is the fact that ABe is not a spring chicken anymore and we are going to have to replace an elite talent at DE. Hope between Sidbury and Beirmann they can replace Abe, but i still think that LDE is a better option in the 1st round. I agree with you Offseason that whoever we draft might not have an immediate impact and may not start. I also go back to what you alluded to regarding teams not having to have elite talent at CB and still win big. WE need CB who can perform their role. I also think that when it comes to Grimes he just needs to learn to be more physical and he will be fine. I dont know if TD will draft a CB early, we have need CB for the last two drafts but we have yet to take one earlier than the 3rd round. It appears that TD places more value on Safties than CB.

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I have been thinking about this some more and here is the conclusion I came to.

I think we tend to forget that last year was the first year of our rebuilding phase. No one expects us to take steps backwards and not go 10-6 or 11-5 again this year (and if we keep playing well in the red zone that might happen), but that doesn't mean that we are ready to be Super Bowl contenders yet. We still need to bring in as much talent as we can, even if they don't start right away. We got lucky when we got 3 immediate starters with our first three selections in Ryan, Baker and Lofton, that doesn't always happen. So even if we draft a player in the 1st round there isn't any reason to force him into the starting lineup. Sometimes 1st rounders (especially players at positions that require development like QB, DE, WR, CB or S) need time to adjust before they can make an impact. Roddy White is living proof of this, DeCoud (even though he wasn't a round 1 pick) is another example of a safety needing time to come into his own, and I hope that Chris Owens will be another example of that.

My point is this: The more I think about it the less likely it is that we are going to draft a guy in the 1st round that is going to come in and make an immediate impact as a starter. The only way that will happen is if we pick a RT, a RB or maybe an OLB. To be honest I would not like to draft any of those positions in the 1st round. So what does that mean? Our 1st round pick might not come in and start right away. Is that really the worst thing? Sure, it would be nice if we could draft a corner that would walk in and lock down a starting position, but how often does that really happen? Not often. And it would be nice to be able to draft a LE who could walk in, play well versus the run and get 8 sacks a season to take the pressure off of the rest of our DL and our secondary, but that probably won't happen either.

So really there isn't much of a point to argue "Oh, CB will make more of an impact than DE" or "No, DE will make more impact than CB" because at most we will probably have a CB starting in the Nickel if we draft one in the 1st round and at most we will have a LE rotating behind Chauncey or JA98 at LE. Either way they are not going to be starting, they would be getting some playing time ideally, but they would be making rookie mistakes and a limited impact.

The reason I am still leaning towards drafting a LE in round 1 like Everson Griffen is because I think that if we draft a LE like him (or Derrick Morgan if we had a chance at him, but there's a fat chance of that) and we work him in slowly as a rookie, develop him and then let him attempt to emerge as a starter in his 2nd season we could come away with an impact defensive end that could be a cornerstone of our defensive line. Does he need developing? Sure, but I think he has top 10 potential and I think with a DL of Abe, Griffen, Chauncey, Bierman and Sidbury we would have 2 quality starters, a solid player to rotate at both spots versus the run in Chauncey and 2 good speed rushing rotational players in Bierman in Sidbury. That is my ideal defensive line.

I really don't think we need a true #1 shut down corner. Sure it would be nice, but I think you can win games with a couple of solid starters at corner even if they aren't big playmakers. The Patriots exemplified this (before Asante emerged), the Colts won a superbowl with solid CB's and the Steelers don't have stud corners either. What they all had was a good pass rush, good safety play (great in the case of the Colts and Steelers), good linebackers and solid cornerback play. The Giants did the same when they won the Superbowl 2 years ago as well. And I guess if I had to choose I would pay a DE who can rush the passer a big contract rather than a corner. We tried this with DeAngelo Hall already, the 49ers are trying it with Nate Clements, the Raiders have a stud corner in Aso, I could go on but I won't. You don't win games because you have a stud corner, I would much prefer something like the Packers have. They have Al Harris and Charles Woodson, two guys who are reliable starters and can make plays and can play man or zone coverage. Neither one of them commands a huge DeAngelo Hall contract, but they are both effective starters.

So I guess all that is why I want a DE in round 1. And I don't think drafting a LE would take snaps away from Sidbury. If anything it would take them away from Bierman at LE. What I envision is Griffen developing into a good starting LE, Chauncey backing up at RE with Sidbury hopefully developing into an ample replacement for Abe at RE. Then Bierman would back up Griffen at LE. JA98 obviously doesn't fit into this ideal scenario, but we just signed Chauncey to play the run and provide the occasional pass rush, we don't need JA98 around to do the same thing. If we want to slide him in to UT and let him play the run at LE sometimes and the pass at UT sure we can try that, but I would prefer to have 5 DE's (Abe, Griffen, Chauncey, Bierman and Sidbury) with 4-5 DT's (Babs, Jerry, Johnson, JA98 and maybe Lewis or another fa acquisition for depth at NT).

So I guess that is what I think about all that. I would imagine it would take JA98 out of the rotation, not Sidbury. I don't think drafting a LE to be the eventual starter should affect Sidbury at all.

I never really said that a player has to come in and start right away. Here is how I look at it.

On the D-Line we have 5 quality DEs that work very well together. In the secondary we have nothing to really build off of. What player in our secondary has a starting spot completely locked down?

I see none. What I see on the D-Line is a great rotation that keeps players fresh and everybody's strengths are being utilized.

What I am trying to say is that our talent on the D-Line is far superior than our secondary's and we have to get that fixed.

Look at how young most of our D-Line players are:

Jamaal Anderson- 23

Kroy Biermann- 24

Lawrence Sidbury- 23

Chauncey Davis- 26

None of these guys have hit their primes, but yet they have been very productive and can only get better as they grow together.

When I look at the secondary I cannot compare their upside to our D-Line's

If we had at least one reliable starter I wouldn't mind picking another DE, but we honestly don't have one.

Though they may not be Pro Bowlers, JA98, Biermann, and Davis are reliable players.... We just don't have anybody reliable in that secondary and it really can cost us sometimes.

Look at how the Giants got exposed last week against the Saints. We may be a few teams, but we will never be able to handle the best teams in the league with mediocre CBs on big-time WRs.

The Giants had Aaron Ross, Corey Webster and Gibril Wilson in that secondary when they won the Super Bowl. Those guys are talented and much more reliable than say Grimes or Houston.

You are right. The player doesn't have to start right away, but we can't keep adding to an already talented Defensive Line when our secondary is so weak.

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I never really said that a player has to come in and start right away. Here is how I look at it.

On the D-Line we have 5 quality DEs that work very well together. In the secondary we have nothing to really build off of. What player in our secondary has a starting spot completely locked down?

I see none. What I see on the D-Line is a great rotation that keeps players fresh and everybody's strengths are being utilized.

What I am trying to say is that our talent on the D-Line is far superior than our secondary's and we have to get that fixed.

Look at how young most of our D-Line players are:

Jamaal Anderson- 23

Kroy Biermann- 24

Lawrence Sidbury- 23

Chauncey Davis- 26

None of these guys have hit their primes, but yet they have been very productive and can only get better as they grow together.

When I look at the secondary I cannot compare their upside to our D-Line's

If we had at least one reliable starter I wouldn't mind picking another DE, but we honestly don't have one.

Though they may not be Pro Bowlers, JA98, Biermann, and Davis are reliable players.... We just don't have anybody reliable in that secondary and it really can cost us sometimes.

Look at how the Giants got exposed last week against the Saints. We may be a few teams, but we will never be able to handle the best teams in the league with mediocre CBs on big-time WRs.

The Giants had Aaron Ross, Corey Webster and Gibril Wilson in that secondary when they won the Super Bowl. Those guys are talented and much more reliable than say Grimes or Houston.

You are right. The player doesn't have to start right away, but we can't keep adding to an already talented Defensive Line when our secondary is so weak.

I really do understand what you are saying Hakim but given the fact that TD seems to place a lower value on CB I dont think he will draft a CB early. I think we will see another CB picked in the 3rd - 4th round, especially the way that Houston is playing, or we will see a trade of some sort to get a Veteran CB on the squad. I still think that Grimes may develop into one of our consistent starter on the team, especially if he continues to play well.

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I really do understand what you are saying Hakim but given the fact that TD seems to place a lower value on CB I dont think he will draft a CB early. I think we will see another CB picked in the 3rd - 4th round, especially the way that Houston is playing, or we will see a trade of some sort to get a Veteran CB on the squad. I still think that Grimes may develop into one of our consistent starter on the team, especially if he continues to play well.

I won't say that TD puts lower value on CBs. He has only been here for two drafts. We may see a pattern after this year, but I can't make a judgment after only two offseasons.

We pick a QB, LT, DT, MLB, and Safety with our early picks. Those were all pretty urgent picks because we really didn't have a clear starter at those positions at the time.

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I won't say that TD puts lower value on CBs. He has only been here for two drafts. We may see a pattern after this year, but I can't make a judgment after only two offseasons.

We pick a QB, LT, DT, MLB, and Safety with our early picks. Those were all pretty urgent picks because we really didn't have a clear starter at those positions at the time.

We didnt have any clear talent at CB either. WE had a one year starter, and we had just traded our #1 CB in Deangelo Hall, so i think that CB was just as urgent as, maybe not QB or LT, but it was very urgent and we had Coleman and Decoud at Safety already yet we went with a safety. I see a pattern developing, you just dont want to see it.

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We didnt have any clear talent at CB either. WE had a one year starter, and we had just traded our #1 CB in Deangelo Hall, so i think that CB was just as urgent as, maybe not QB or LT, but it was very urgent and we had Coleman and Decoud at Safety already yet we went with a safety. I see a pattern developing, you just dont want to see it.

We can agree that QB and LT were bigger needs in 2008, but also look at DT this past draft.

We had just lost a starter in Grady Jackson, we had a player coming off two major knee surgeries in Trey Lewis, and a journeyman who hadn't played football for two years.

DT was a HUGE need and we honestly had NOBODY there.

at SS we lost Milloy and the coaches knew that Coleman and DeCoud are both natural FS's. Coleman is in there now, but he has not been very impressive in that role. The Bears game was the only time I saw him make a few plays in the box. TD knew that the only reason why Coleman even is on the team is because he tried to make a similar move to SS when he was with the Jets...... and that really failed.

Moore was just a case of a player with HUGE upside who dropped from being a potential top 10 pick. TD said he wanted a Troy Polamalu/Ed Reed type safety on our team and Moore must have been his guy.

We had big needs at those positions and we thought we had a growing player in Houston and a solid surprise with Grimes.

If we don't go CB early in this draft or the 2011 draft, then I will agree with you, but until then, I still believe we had bigger needs than CB in both years.

We did scout Darius Butler very heavily before the draft.

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We didnt have any clear talent at CB either. WE had a one year starter, and we had just traded our #1 CB in Deangelo Hall, so i think that CB was just as urgent as, maybe not QB or LT, but it was very urgent and we had Coleman and Decoud at Safety already yet we went with a safety. I see a pattern developing, you just dont want to see it.

Sorry but this is rubbish - you can't judge any pattern at this point. I agree that before the 2008 draft we may have needed a corner but we had about 10 other starting jobs open!

As regards the 2009 season - saying "we had Decoud" like everyone knew he would be a stud is revisionist history - by that token at corner we had Jackson (who had played 500+ snaps in the nickel), Grimes (who started the '08 season before he got injured) and Houston (who was nominally our number 1) so why would we draft one high? Safety was (perceived to be) a glaring need - why were people mocking us Delmas in the 1st do you think?

Now if we don't take a corner high in 2010 then maybe your theory has more credibility but right now no dice.

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