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DaMeatTroughsEgo

Why do liberals

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So far you've failed to show how our country is based upon christian ideals. No one is debating that a great majority of our founding fathers weren't christian, we're saying that this does not support the notion of a christian-idealled nation simply because. Our founding fathers make a historic change in government - to separate their personal religious beliefs from the weaving of the state. Our nation is not christian, and our nation is not atheist. It is secular, that is, it is ignorant on the matters of religion.

Here is a government document noting our historic secularism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tripoli

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

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Actually its fairly easy to see why God isnt mentioned in the Constitution. Not because this nation wasnt founded by Christians, but because there is freedom of religion. If you were to involve God in the Constitution that would mandate a religion and in turn take the rights of many away from them. So just because God is not mentioned in the Constitution does not mean this country was not founded on Christianity.

Ill tell you one thing, it wasnt founded by Atheists as yourself. :lol:

Reread what you just wrote and tell me you didn't just prove our point for us. Let me enlighten you on something "Enlightened," Atheism, Deism, Humanism, and all other "isms" that refer to a non-dogmatic interpretation of the world are permeated with the notion that humans are perfectly capable of making moral decisions without a moral edict. In short, many of us don't need a pastor to tell us what is right and wrong, we make our own decisions and we bear the consequences. That doesn't mean we don't screw up, but your Bible tells you that we all make mistakes. It just so happens that some of the most egregious mistakes in history have been made because of that book. Our Founding Fathers saw that if they founded this nation specifically on the morality of the church that the church would corrupt it. Much like Rome, England, France, The Vatican, so on.

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Hmmmmmm, Conservatives are just angry cause we lost the election, and the country was founded by liberals. Well atleast both of those are wrong.

Why does our president bow to the Saudi king and yet wont salute our flag? Why did Bush kiss the Saudi King on the lips? Why did Bush walk HOLDING THE SAUDI KING'S HAND in the rose garden at the whitehouse? Obviously they own America. Between China and Saudi Arabia they own the majority of our country/politicians.At least Obama got the gas price back down from the $5/gal we paid AFTER Bush kissed and held hands with the Saudi King. At least Obama got something in return :lol:

Why do the Liberals cry foul when our soldiers die at war but want abortion to be legal?

Of the "40 million abortions" (I'll take your word for it?)

Are you for healthcare coverage for all?

Are you for food stamps and welfare for poor?

Are you for medicaid for poor?

Are you for free lunch for poor kids?

Why does a Liberal President swear to protect this country and then want to take our guns away? paranoid much?

Yeah, he loves America, let me tell you.

"Christian" conservatives are upset about abortions but don't want to help support the unwanted children. They fight tooth and nail against healthcare, aid to poor, etc.

Why are you so concerned with the fetus but could care less once they are born?

One would think that with your level of hatred for "liberals" you would want them to have abortions so you wouldn't have to blow them up at Federal buildings and abortion clinics.

Every time their is a democrat in office...the lunatics on the right come out of the woodwork. The teabaggers, birthers, etc all start screaming the same old tired worn out phrases they dust off every time a dem is in office. "Socialist, rationing healthcare, tax and spend liberal, big government" , BLAH BLAH BLAH

That act is tired and that dog just won't hunt any more.

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Ill tell you one thing, it wasnt founded by Atheists as yourself. :lol:

I can tell you this, that one of the most influential minds of the Revolution, Thomas Jefferson, was the author (or editor) of the Jefferson Bible or The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth. In this book, Jefferson removed all mention of the supernatural (divinity, trinity, resurrection, etc) and edited the four gospels into one narrative, removing discrepancy with a fairly heavy pen.

What do you think would happen to your pastor if he released a similar volume? If your answer is anything less than "run out of town by a lynch-mob," you might be deluding yourself. Influenced by Christianity and the philosophy of Christ, sure, Christian, not by a long shot. Not to mention, that most folks today would call him an atheist or a non-believer because he doesn't literalize the Bible.

Here's a link to the text.

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Luke 16:19-25. "Now there was a certain rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, gaily living in splendor every day. And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, and longing to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs would come and lick his sores.

Now it came about that the poor man died and he was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. And in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far away, and Lazarus in his bosom.

And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue; for I am in agony in this flame.'

But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony...'"

Read more at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/08/cigna-employee-flips-off_n_314189.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/08/cigna-employee-flips-off_n_314189.html

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"Christian" conservatives are upset about abortions but don't want to help support the unwanted children. They fight tooth and nail against healthcare, aid to poor, etc.

Why are you so concerned with the fetus but could care less once they are born?

One would think that with your level of hatred for "liberals" you would want them to have abortions so you wouldn't have to blow them up at Federal buildings and abortion clinics.

Every time their is a democrat in office...the lunatics on the right come out of the woodwork. The teabaggers, birthers, etc all start screaming the same old tired worn out phrases they dust off every time a dem is in office. "Socialist, rationing healthcare, tax and spend liberal, big government" , BLAH BLAH BLAH

That act is tired and that dog just won't hunt any more.

Once again, you take what some in the party have done and put it on me. Im glad you know me so well. One of the main things Jesus taught was to take care of the widows and orphans. I strongly support adoption. I dont think any child should be left behind without care. I spent 6 years of my life in a children's home because my father and grandmother couldnt afford to care for me. So quit pointing your finger at me like Im the leader of the Republican party. I can answer for how I believe, but I cant answer for how others vote, that is on them.

I dont get why you all keep seperating "fetus" and "baby". Are they not both human? Isnt it just a stage of the natural birth process. You all talk about the "fetus" like its some alien and then a baby takes its place later. Its ridiculous what society has done to brainwash themselves into thinking to allow the inhumane slaughter of millions of babies without any sense of remorse. Tell yourself whatever you need to, its still a human, its still murder, period.

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Luke 16:19-25. "Now there was a certain rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, gaily living in splendor every day. And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, and longing to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs would come and lick his sores.

Now it came about that the poor man died and he was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. And in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far away, and Lazarus in his bosom.

And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue; for I am in agony in this flame.'

But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony...'"

Read more at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/08/cigna-employee-flips-off_n_314189.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/08/cigna-employee-flips-off_n_314189.html

This must be more on your rant of "the rich wont make it into heaven". Now, taken out of context that sounds about right. Problem is, you are missing part of it. The "rich" cant buy their way into heaven, thats true.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life"

There are plenty of Christians that have money, are they going to be turned away because they have money? No. The only way to heaven is to believe in Jesus Christ as your savior and repent of your sins. Having money or not having money has nothing to do with it. What this parable is showing is that you are to care for those in need and that you cant buy your way into heaven. You have clearly taken it out context and tried to make it into something else.

Now you could also make a case that this is talking about taking care of the sick, and I agree that you should. As I said in the other thread though, I dont want the government in charge of it. Do you see the state of this nation? Do you see the economic crisis? Do you really want to give the government something else to ruin? I realise there are those out there without health care, but allowing the government to dictate that is not the right move. I dont fight against health care, I fight against giving the government power over it. I like being able the see whichever doctor I choose, I dont want to be told when and where to go.

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The question begs then, did the Supreme Court recognize the United States as a Christian nation? Well, in 1892 the US Supreme Court made this ruling in a case. (Church of The Holy Trinity vs. The United States.) "No purpose of action against religion can be imputed to any legislation, state or national, because this is a religious people. This is a Christian nation."

1983 - Oct. 4, 1982, Joint Resolution of Congress: "Whereas the Bible, the Word of God, has made a unique contribution in shaping the United States as a distinctive and blessed nation of people. Whereas Biblical teachings inspired concepts of civil government that are contained in our Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of The United States ... Whereas that renewing our knowledge of, and faith in God through Holy Scriptures can strengthen us as a nation and a people. Now therefore be it resolved ... that the President is authorized and requested to designate 1983 as a national "Year of the Bible" in recognition of both the formative influence the Bible has been for our nation, and our national need to study and apply the teachings of the Holy Scriptures." February 3, 1983 - President Ronald Reagan issued the above requested proclamation. President George Bush declared 1990 to be the international year of Bible reading

Almost nine out of 10 Americans (86%) say that they believe in God, even when given the choice of saying that they "don't believe in God, but believe in a universal spirit or higher power" (chosen by only eight percent). In fact, only five percent of the population choose neither of these choices and thus claim a more straightforward atheistic position. Gallup Poll, Christmas 1999

93% of North Americans are Christians, less than 2% are Jewish, and less than 2% are a combination of Muslims, Buddhists, and Hindus. Encyclopedia Britannica Book of the Year

Immediately after creating the Declaration of Independence, the Continental Congress voted to purchase and import 20,000 copies of Scripture for the people of this nation.

Patrick Henry, who is called the firebrand of the American Revolution, is still remembered for his words, "Give me liberty or give me death"; but in current textbooks, the context of these words is omitted.

Here is what he actually said:"An appeal to arms and the God of hosts is all that is left us. But we shall not fight our battle alone. There is a just God that presides over the destinies of nations. The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone. Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it Almighty God. I know not what course others may take, but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death."

These sentences have been erased from our textbooks. Was Patrick Henry a Christian? The following year, 1776, he wrote this:

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great Nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For that reason alone, people of other faiths have been afforded freedom of worship here."
Consider these words that Thomas Jefferson wrote in the front of his well-worn Bible: "I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus. I have little doubt that our whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our creator."

He was also the chairman of the American Bible Society, which he considered his highest and most important role.

On July 4, 1821, President Adams said, "The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: "It connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity."

Calvin Coolidge, our 30th President of the United States reaffirmed this truth when he wrote, "The foundations of our society and our government rest so much on the teachings of the Bible that it would be difficult to support them if faith in these teachings would cease to be practically universal in our country."

In 1782, the United States Congress voted this resolution: " The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools."

William Holmes McGuffey is the author of the McGuffey Reader, which was used for over 100 years in our public schools, with over 125 million copies sold, until it was stopped in 1963.

President Lincoln called him the "Schoolmaster of the Nation." Listen to these words of Mr. McGuffey:"The Christian religion is the religion of our country. From it are derived our nation, on the character of God, on the great moral Governor of the universe. On its doctrines are founded the peculiarities of our free Institutions. From no source has the author drawn more conspicuously than from the sacred Scriptures. For all these extracts from the Bible, I make no apology."

Of the first 108 universities founded in America, 106 were distinctly Christian, including the first, Harvard University, chartered in 1636. In the original Harvard Student Handbook, rule number 1 was that students seeking entrance must know Latin and Greek so that they could study the Scriptures: "Let every student be plainly instructed and earnestly pressed to consider well, the main end of his life and studies, is, to know God and Jesus Christ, which is eternal life,! John 17:3; and therefore to lay Jesus Christ as the only foundation for our children to follow the moral principles of the Ten Commandments."

James Madison, the primary author of the Constitution of the United States, said this:"We have staked the whole future of all our political constitutions upon the capacity of each of ourselves to govern ourselves according to the moral principles of the Ten Commandments."

Most of what you read in this article has been erased from our textbooks. Revisionists have rewritten history to remove the truth about our country's Christian roots. You are encouraged to share this with others, so that the truth of our nation's history will be told.To find out more,look up government and the T.E.A.

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lmao copy/paste champion. This same info has been posted and then debunked countless of times.

I've got a 4 hour drive ahead of me, I'll have to respond when get where I am going.

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Read this as an American, not as the political party you favor.

LET US BE THE SILENT MAJORITY NO LONGER!

Americans everywhere identify with this 53-year-old woman. She has given us a voice. Once you read this, you will want to forward it to all of your friends...

I'm a home grown American citizen, 53, registered Democrat all my life. Before the last presidential election I registered as a Republican because I no longer felt the Democratic Party represents my views or works to pursue issues important to me. Now I no longer feel the Republican Party represents my views or works to pursue issues important to me. The fact is I no longer feel any political party or representative in Washington represents my views or works to pursue the issues important to me. There must be someone. Please tell me who you are. Please stand up and tell me that you are there and that you're willing to fight for our Constitution as it was written. Please stand up now. You might ask yourself what my views and issues a re that I would horribly feel so disenfranchised by both major political parties. What kind of nut job am I? Will you please tell me?

Well, these are briefly my views and issues for which I seek representation:

One, illegal immigration. I want you to stop coddling illegal immigrants and secure our borders. Close the underground tunnels. Stop the violence and the trafficking in drugs and people. No amnesty, not again. Been there, done that, no resolution. P.S., I'm not a racist. This isn't to be confused with legal immigration.

Two, the TARP bill, I want it repealed and I want no further funding supplied to it. We told you no, but you did it anyway. I want the remaining unfunded 95% repealed. Freeze, repeal.

Three: Czars, I want the circumvention of our checks and balances stopped immediately. Fire the czars. No more czars. Government officials answer to the process, not to the president. Stop trampling on our Constitution and honor it.

Four, cap and trade. The debate on global warming is not over. There is more to say.

Five, universal health-care. I will not be rushed into another expensive decision. Don't you dare try to pass this in the middle of the night and then go on break. Slow down!

Six, growing government control. I want states rights and sovereignty fully restored. I want less government in my life, not more. Shrink it down. Mind your own business. You have enough to take care of with your real obligations. Why don't you start there.

Seven, ACORN. I do not want ACORN and its affiliates in charge of our 2010 census. I want them investigated. I also do not want mandatory escrow fees contributed to them every time on every real estate deal that closes. Stop the funding to ACORN and its affiliates pending impartial audits and investigations. I do not trust them with taking the census over with our taxpayer money. I don't trust them with our taxpayer money. Face up to the allegations against them and get it resolved before taxpayers get any more involved with them. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, hello. Stop protecting your political buddies. You work for us, the people. Investigate.

Eight, redistribution of wealth. No, no, no. I work for my money. It is mine. I have always worked for people with more money than I have because they gave me jobs. That is the only redistribution of wealth that I will support. I never got a job from a poor person. Why do you want me to hate my employers? Why -- what do you have against shareholders making a profit?

Nine, charitable contributions. Although I never got a job from a poor person, I have helped many in need. Charity belongs in our local communities, where we know our needs best and can use our local talent and our local resources. Butt out, please. We want to do it ourselves.

Ten, corporate bailouts. Knock it off. Sink or swim like the rest of us. If there are hard times ahead, we'll be better off just getting into it and letting the strong survive. Quick and painful. Have you ever ripped off a Band-Aid? We will pull together. Great things happen in America under great hardship. Give us the chance to innovate. We cannot disappoint you more than you have disappointed us.

Eleven, transparency and accountability. How about it? No, really, how about it? Let's have it. Let's say we give the buzzwords a rest and have some straight honest talk. Please try -- please stop manipulating and trying to appease me with clever wording. I am not the idiot you obviously take me for. Stop sneaking around and meeting in back rooms making deals with your friends. It will only be a prelude to your criminal investigation. Stop hiding things from me.

Twelve, unprecedented quick spending. Stop it now. Take a breath. Listen to the people. Let's just slow down and get some input from some non-politicians on the subject. Stop making everything an emergency. Stop speed reading our bills into law. I am not an activist. I am not a community organizer. Nor am I a terrorist, a militant or a violent person. I am a parent and a grandparent. I work. I'm busy. I'm busy. I am busy, and I am tired. I thought we elected competent people to take care of the business s of government so that we could work, raise our families, pay our bills, have a little recreation, complain about taxes, endure our hardships, pursue our personal goals, cut our lawn, wash our cars on the weekends and be responsible contributing members of society and teach our children to be the same all while living in the home of the free and land of the brave.

I entrusted you with upholding the Constitution. I believed in the checks and balances to keep from getting far off course. What happened? You are very far off course. Do you really think I find humor in the hiring of a speed reader to unintelligently ramble all through a bill that you signed into law without knowing what it contained? I do not. It is a mockery of the responsibility I have entrusted to you. It is a slap in the face. I am not laughing at your arrogance. Why is it that I feel as if you would not trust me to make a single decision about my own life and how I would live it but you should expect that I should trust you with the debt that you have laid on all of us and our children. We did not want the TARP bill. We said no. We would repeal it if we could. I am sure that we still cannot. There is such urgency and recklessness in all of the recent spending.

From my perspective, it seems that all of you have gone insane. I also know that I am far from alone in these feelings. Do you honestly feel that your current pursuits have merit to patriotic Americans? We want it to stop. We want to put the brakes on everything that is being rushed by us and forced upon us. We want our voice back. You have forced us to put our lives on hold to straighten out the mess that you are making. We will have to give up our vacations, our time spent with our children, any relaxation time we may have had and money we cannot afford to spend on you to bring our concerns to Washington . Our president often knows all the right buzzword is unsustainable. Well, no kidding. How many tens of thousands of dollars did the focus group cost to come up with that word? We don't want your overpriced words. Stop treating us like we're morons.

We want all of you to stop focusing on your reelection and do the job we want done, not the job you want done or the job your party wants done. You work for us and at this rate I guarantee you not for long because we are coming. We will be heard and we will be represented.

You think we're so busy with our lives that we will never come for you? We are the formerly silent majority, all of us who quietly work , pay taxes, obey the law, vote, save money, keep our noses to the grindstone and we are now looking up at you. You have awakened us, the patriotic spirit so strong and so powerful that it had been sleeping too long. You have pushed us too far. Our numbers are great. They may surprise you. For every one of us who will be there, there will be hundreds more that could not come. Unlike you, we have their trust. We will represent them honestly, rest assured. They will be at the polls on voting day to usher you out of office. We have cancelled vacations. We will use our last few dollars saved. We will find the representation among us and a grassroots campaign will flourish. We didn't ask for this fight. But the gloves are coming off. We do not come in violence, but we are angry. You will represent us or you will be replaced with someone who will. There are candidates among us when he will rise like a Phoenix from the ashes that you have made of our constitution.

Democrat, Republican, independent, libertarian. Understand this. We don't care. Political parties are meaningless to us. Patriotic Americans are willing to do right by us and our Constitution and that is all that matters to us now. We are going to fire all of you who abuse power and seek more. It is not your power. It is ours and we want it back. We entrusted you with it and you abused it. You are dishonorable. You are dishonest. As Americans we are ashamed of you. You have brought shame to us. If you are not representing the wants and needs of your constituency loudly and consistently, in spite of the objections of your party, you will be fired. Did you hear? We no longer care about your political parties. You need to be loyal to us, not to them. Because we will get you fired and they will not save you.If you do or can represent me, my issues, my views, please stand up. Make your identity known. You need to make some noise about it. Speak up. I need to know who you are. If you do not speak up, you will be herded out with the rest of the sheep and we will replace the whole **** congress if need be one by one. We are coming. Are we coming for you? Who do you represent? What do you represent? Listen. Because we are coming. We the people are coming.

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Details of The $700bb Bailout Bill (TARP, Troubled Asset Relief Program)

Some color on the bill itself [and a little more (opinion) from the writer]:

source: http://www.traderdaily.com/column/1/24216.html

Dear Trader,

The Senate met last night to pass the Wall Street handout bill, also known as TARP (Troubled Asset Relief Program). It was a done deal on day 1 in my opinion; so when we witnessed the House defeat the bill, it was really just a dog and pony show for those members on the reelection bubble. Global central banks are ringing the White House phone off the hook to get it done - or else.

The Senate version of the TARP bill contains three main sections; the actual stabilization act (division A), the Energy Improvement act (division B ), and tax reduction extension (division C).

Division A - Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008

In addition to the TARP, the Senate legislation includes an expansion in deposit insurance as mentioned yesterday. Section 136 would provide for a temporary increase in the amount of deposits insured by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) and the National Credit Union Administration (NCUA), raising the limit for each insured account from $100,000 to $250,000 through December 31, 2009.

The bill would appropriate such sums ($700 billion) as are necessary, for as many years as necessary, to enable the (unelected) Secretary to purchase or insure (ANY) troubled assets and to cover all administrative expenses of purchasing, insuring, holding, and selling those assets. The purchase price of all such assets outstanding at any one time could not exceed $700 billion (though cumulative gross purchases could exceed $700 billion as previously purchased assets are sold). This truly is a blank check.

In Division A the Treasury has the authority to (read: will be) buy troubled assets from banks other than mortgages such as; auto loans, credit card loan portfolio's, and school loan portfolio's. Question: Is the government giving YOU relief on your credit card, auto, or college loan payments? I didn't think so. As one must expect from the circus clowns in Congress, what they say is only a small portion of what will be done: it's always bait-and-switch with them.

The Treasury will also be using your money to bail out foreign commercial and central banks. In the words of Representative Brad Sherman on CNBC speaking to Larry Kudlow - It provides hundreds of billions of dollars of bailouts to foreign investors. It provides no real control of Paulson's power. There is a critique board but not really a board that can step in and change what he does. It's a $700 billion program run by a part-time temporary employee and there is no limit on million dollar a month salaries.

Larry you have to read the bill. It's very clear. The Bank of Shanghai can transfer all of its toxic assets to the Bank of Shanghai of Los Angeles which can then sell them the next day to the Treasury. I had a provision to say if it wasn't owned by an American entity even a subsidiary, but at least an entity in the US , the Treasury can't buy it. It was rejected.

The bill is very clear. Assets now held in China and London can be sold to US entities on Monday and then sold to the Treasury on Tuesday. Paulson has made it clear he will recommend a veto of any bill that contained a clear provision that said if Americans did not own the asset on September 20th that it can't be sold to the Treasury.

Hundreds of billions of dollars are going to bail out foreign investors. They know it; they demanded it and the bill has been carefully written to make sure that can happen. (As I said, this was a done deal a LONG time ago.)

Division B - Energy Improvement and Extension Act of 2008

Division B of the bill would provide a number of tax incentives related to energy and fuel production and energy conservation. CBO and the Joint Committee on Taxation (JCT) estimate that, over the 2009-2013 period, Division B would reduce revenues by $6.8 billion, increase outlays by about $0.2 billion, and increase projected deficits by about $7 billion.

Division C - Tax Extensions and Alternative Minimum Tax Relief

Division C would extend relief from the alternative minimum tax for 2008, extend and modify a number of other expiring tax provisions, provide tax relief for regions of the country affected by severe storms earlier this year, make other changes to tax law, and provide payments to state and local governments for support to rural schools and other county programs. It also would modify the tax treatment of deferred compensation paid by certain foreign entities. CBO and JCT estimate that, over the 2009-2013 period, Division C would reduce revenues by about $105.2 billion, increase outlays by $7.1 billion, and increase projected deficits by about $112.3 billion.

Hurricane relief and rural school assistance may be admirable objectives; however, in what way is that related to the TARP?

Intergovernmental and Private-Sector Mandates

Division C, section 512 would impose a private-sector mandate on group health plans and issuers of group health insurance by prohibiting them from imposing treatment limitations or financial requirements for mental health benefits that differ from those placed on medical and surgical benefits.

Mental health benefit increases may be an admirable objective; however, in what way is that related to the TARP?

Have you wondered how the government came to the oft-quoted price tag? A Treasury spokeswoman told Forbes.com Tuesday - It's not based on any particular data point. We just wanted to choose a really large number. Ah yes, that's your government in action - making it up as they go along.

Trade well and follow the trend, not the so-called experts.

Larry Levin

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Details of The $700bb Bailout Bill (TARP, Troubled Asset Relief Program)

Some color on the bill itself [and a little more (opinion) from the writer]:

source: http://www.traderdaily.com/column/1/24216.html

Dear Trader,

The Senate met last night to pass the Wall Street handout bill, also known as TARP (Troubled Asset Relief Program). It was a done deal on day 1 in my opinion; so when we witnessed the House defeat the bill, it was really just a dog and pony show for those members on the reelection bubble. Global central banks are ringing the White House phone off the hook to get it done - or else.

The Senate version of the TARP bill contains three main sections; the actual stabilization act (division A), the Energy Improvement act (division B ), and tax reduction extension (division C).

Division A - Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008

In addition to the TARP, the Senate legislation includes an expansion in deposit insurance as mentioned yesterday. Section 136 would provide for a temporary increase in the amount of deposits insured by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) and the National Credit Union Administration (NCUA), raising the limit for each insured account from $100,000 to $250,000 through December 31, 2009.

The bill would appropriate such sums ($700 billion) as are necessary, for as many years as necessary, to enable the (unelected) Secretary to purchase or insure (ANY) troubled assets and to cover all administrative expenses of purchasing, insuring, holding, and selling those assets. The purchase price of all such assets outstanding at any one time could not exceed $700 billion (though cumulative gross purchases could exceed $700 billion as previously purchased assets are sold). This truly is a blank check.

In Division A the Treasury has the authority to (read: will be) buy troubled assets from banks other than mortgages such as; auto loans, credit card loan portfolio's, and school loan portfolio's. Question: Is the government giving YOU relief on your credit card, auto, or college loan payments? I didn't think so. As one must expect from the circus clowns in Congress, what they say is only a small portion of what will be done: it's always bait-and-switch with them.

The Treasury will also be using your money to bail out foreign commercial and central banks. In the words of Representative Brad Sherman on CNBC speaking to Larry Kudlow - It provides hundreds of billions of dollars of bailouts to foreign investors. It provides no real control of Paulson's power. There is a critique board but not really a board that can step in and change what he does. It's a $700 billion program run by a part-time temporary employee and there is no limit on million dollar a month salaries.

Larry you have to read the bill. It's very clear. The Bank of Shanghai can transfer all of its toxic assets to the Bank of Shanghai of Los Angeles which can then sell them the next day to the Treasury. I had a provision to say if it wasn't owned by an American entity even a subsidiary, but at least an entity in the US , the Treasury can't buy it. It was rejected.

The bill is very clear. Assets now held in China and London can be sold to US entities on Monday and then sold to the Treasury on Tuesday. Paulson has made it clear he will recommend a veto of any bill that contained a clear provision that said if Americans did not own the asset on September 20th that it can't be sold to the Treasury.

Hundreds of billions of dollars are going to bail out foreign investors. They know it; they demanded it and the bill has been carefully written to make sure that can happen. (As I said, this was a done deal a LONG time ago.)

Division B - Energy Improvement and Extension Act of 2008

Division B of the bill would provide a number of tax incentives related to energy and fuel production and energy conservation. CBO and the Joint Committee on Taxation (JCT) estimate that, over the 2009-2013 period, Division B would reduce revenues by $6.8 billion, increase outlays by about $0.2 billion, and increase projected deficits by about $7 billion.

Division C - Tax Extensions and Alternative Minimum Tax Relief

Division C would extend relief from the alternative minimum tax for 2008, extend and modify a number of other expiring tax provisions, provide tax relief for regions of the country affected by severe storms earlier this year, make other changes to tax law, and provide payments to state and local governments for support to rural schools and other county programs. It also would modify the tax treatment of deferred compensation paid by certain foreign entities. CBO and JCT estimate that, over the 2009-2013 period, Division C would reduce revenues by about $105.2 billion, increase outlays by $7.1 billion, and increase projected deficits by about $112.3 billion.

Hurricane relief and rural school assistance may be admirable objectives; however, in what way is that related to the TARP?

Intergovernmental and Private-Sector Mandates

Division C, section 512 would impose a private-sector mandate on group health plans and issuers of group health insurance by prohibiting them from imposing treatment limitations or financial requirements for mental health benefits that differ from those placed on medical and surgical benefits.

Mental health benefit increases may be an admirable objective; however, in what way is that related to the TARP?

Have you wondered how the government came to the oft-quoted price tag? A Treasury spokeswoman told Forbes.com Tuesday - It's not based on any particular data point. We just wanted to choose a really large number. Ah yes, that's your government in action - making it up as they go along.

Trade well and follow the trend, not the so-called experts.

Larry Levin

I don't know of anyone from any party that is happy about the TARP money stolen by Bush

and his friends in the Treasury. I just remember the economy melting down worldwide while Obama and McCain were campaigning, Bush and friends were looting the treasury on the way out the door. If it wasn't bad enough Cheney and friends from Halliburton were

looting the Treasury in the 2 wars...Bush left us with 10 trillion in new debt and with printing presses churning out newly printed currency to secretly funnel to the bankers and wall street. Stock markets worldwide were crashing. I think it's safe to say most Americans fear our future because our govt. is clueless and greedy and sell us all out regularly.

It was like deja vu all over again...

remember when the first Bush was bailing out banks in

91? Then it was called the S&L scandals. Remember Neil Bush? Probably not. He was George W.'s brother. Seems he

made 2 BILLION DOLLARS in bad loans to friends and stuck the taxpayer with the bill along with the 600 billion dollars that was required to bail out banks then.Neil Bush paid a small fine and got no jail time. You never heard from him again. Did that big bad evil MSM report about him during W's days? nope

When the Bush family gathered, after W was selected by the Supreme Court to be President, and ever since you have NEVER heard a peep from him. Where is he? In an undisclosed location with that gas bag Cheney?

I want these guys to pay for their stealing and looting the treasury of taxpayer dollars. ALL OF THEM

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To late...they are gone. ^_^

We are focused on the man that promised "change" now.. :lol::lol:

Actually, it's never too late to hold law breakers accountable. Those who forget the lessons of history are destined to repeat it. That's why both Bush's stole us blind. people allowed it....have a short memory....and many don't seem to care....as long as they have an ( R ) beside their name. Sad fact...but true. They are even cheering the US failing and siding with the Taliban. Just because they hate Obama, they root against America so they can ridicule and blame Obama. This MESS was YOUR parties' doing.

They will pay the price once again....because instead of helping to SOLVE the problems THEY left for Obama, THEY want to obstruct every attempt to FIX the problems THEY left ....just so THEY can BLAME Obama in their FEEBLE attempt to reclaim the power THEY abused when they robbed us blind on the way out the door.

Sorry....NOT going to work....NOT THIS TIME :lol:

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Actually, it's never too late to hold law breakers accountable. Those who forget the lessons of history are destined to repeat it. That's why both Bush's stole us blind. people allowed it....have a short memory....and many don't seem to care....as long as they have an ( R ) beside their name. Sad fact...but true. They are even cheering the US failing and siding with the Taliban. Just because they hate Obama, they root against America so they can ridicule and blame Obama. This MESS was YOUR parties' doing.

They will pay the price once again....because instead of helping to SOLVE the problems THEY left for Obama, THEY want to obstruct every attempt to FIX the problems THEY left ....just so THEY can BLAME Obama in their FEEBLE attempt to reclaim the power THEY abused when they robbed us blind on the way out the door.

Sorry....NOT going to work....NOT THIS TIME :lol:

The funny thing about this is you have no idea what you are talking about. Neither Bush stole from us. Who owns the Federal Reserve? Do you know? Its a privately owned bank. Hmmmm, so you are telling me that the bank in which the government holds its money isnt actually owned by the government? Correct. So in fact these guys actually control the money in this nation? Correct. They have in fact put us in a state of hyperinflation because of the over printing of money. Another reason our economy is collapsing.

What a lot of other people dont get is that the president is a puppet. Congress has more power than the president. No president can do anything without the approval of congress. They just dont have the power. You go ahead and blame who you want, no president has that kind of power alone. They cant just make a bill and it automatically pass.

I do find this interesting, the TARP bill was $700 billion and Obama's stimulus plan was exactly the same amount. Coincidence? Nope. Cause Obama's stimulus was actually an extension of the TARP. So again, why blame and criticize one president for what the other is doing also?

I find people like you completely annoying. The people in this nation that realise that what Obama is trying is not going to work are only trying to get in his way. Hmmmmmm, not likely.

I work 8 hours a day 5 days a week and Obama wants me to pay for someone's healthcare. Why? Im able to work, why cant they? If you are of able body and able mind then you should be working. Learn a skill and get to work. Dont look for a government hand out. That just ends up coming back on those of us that work. What would happen if we stopped working? Where would the money that is funding your healthcare come from?

Also, he wants to use the money I make and spread it around. Why? Didnt I earn that money? Did that person do my job or at least assist me in it? Then why do they get a percent of my earnings?

No one is going to get in Obama's way but himself. People are going to get tired of paying to take care of others. Then what will you have? Who would work then?

Think about this...free health care. If we can have free health care then lets have free food, people need to eat to be healthy, right. So with free healthcare and free food lets look at housing. That should be free too, with a roof over your head you are more likely to stay healthy. SO now we have healthcare, food, and housing free.........what would be the purpose of any jobs at that point? No one would work, why would you, you get it all for free.

Do you think the government would continue to fund these programs with no taxes coming in? Of course not. So what would they do?

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No, this is a nation founded on the ideals of religious freedom and personal liberty. There are just as many, if not more, quotes from our founding fathers damning religion and religious establishments. Look it up yourself.

To say the POTUS must be Christian is absolutely ridiculous. And Obama IS Christian. Or at least as Christian as any national politician can be. Why don't you think he is?

If you mean sitting in REV. Wright's pews for 20 years being Christian then I think we have a different meaning of the word?

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If you mean sitting in REV. Wright's pews for 20 years being Christian then I think we have a different meaning of the word?

And who are you to question his faith? That's not very Christian of you...

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I work 8 hours a day 5 days a week and Obama wants me to pay for someone's healthcare. Why? Im able to work, why cant they? If you are of able body and able mind then you should be working. Learn a skill and get to work. Dont look for a government hand out. That just ends up coming back on those of us that work. What would happen if we stopped working? Where would the money that is funding your healthcare come from?

Also, he wants to use the money I make and spread it around. Why? Didnt I earn that money? Did that person do my job or at least assist me in it? Then why do they get a percent of my earnings?

No one is going to get in Obama's way but himself. People are going to get tired of paying to take care of others. Then what will you have? Who would work then?

Think about this...free health care. If we can have free health care then lets have free food, people need to eat to be healthy, right. So with free healthcare and free food lets look at housing. That should be free too, with a roof over your head you are more likely to stay healthy. SO now we have healthcare, food, and housing free.........what would be the purpose of any jobs at that point? No one would work, why would you, you get it all for free.

Do you think the government would continue to fund these programs with no taxes coming in? Of course not. So what would they do?

I have worked a lot of different jobs over the years. I have waited tables, been a barista (not at Starbucks), installed and repaired phone systems, been a PC Tech, a sound engineer, and a freelance web designer. I have not been insured by an employer. Matter of fact, I cannot get insurance, even if I pay for it myself.

Why? Because I received counseling, and I was prescribed anti-depressants. Now, no one will insure me. Apparently because I had a rough go of it for awhile in my early 20s, I am I high-risk medical case. The last time I applied for private coverage, I tried a plan with no mental health coverage and a $3000 deductible, thinking, surely I can cover myself strictly against catastrophic injury or a random hospital stay and pay for everything else out of pocket...nope, no way.

I don't, and have never worked for a large corporation. I tend to work for small business owners. People who have no obligation to provide group coverage for their employees because the staff is too small, or places who only schedule 35-hour weeks so they don't have full-time employees.

I work hard, I always have, but I have no health insurance. We need a solution for me and the countless others like me.

Or, take my girlfriend. She teaches at a public elementary school. She pays $300 per month for a plan to cover her and her 5-year-old daughter. This buys her a PPO with a $5,600 family deductible ($2,800 for each of them), offset by a $2000 contribution by her employer to a medical savings account. In short, if she goes over $2000 in medical expenses for her and her daughter, she has to come up with between $800 and $3,600 out of pocket before insurance kicks in (depending on whom the HSA is spent on and who needs care). Tell me this, what teacher has 3-grand sitting around?

Fact is, the market is supposed to provide us with a better product. This clearly has not happened with health insurance. Ask your parents. I did, and my father,(a life-long republican mind you) cannot even begin to describe the difference in value out of the coverage we had when I was a child, and now what is available to me. Its broken, it doesn't work, and we need to fix it.

Why is it broken? Well, for starters, there are so many destitute and uninsured people with credit so jacked they could care less, that many of these folks have taken to going to emergency rooms for general health problems, because they know they can't be turned away. Ever been in Grady in the middle of the night? Unfortunately I have, and what I saw astounded me. The largest trauma center in Georgia had gurneys covering every inch of its hallways, and most everyone in there were getting treatment for respiratory ailments, meanwhile I waited for 6 hours to get stitched up. Do you think any of these people were going to pay for their ER visits? No way, and the bill winds up getting passed on to you, that's right, you. These unpaid bills cause Grady to squeeze more out of those that can pay (the insured), which causes your insurance premiums to go up. Simple.

Now put these people into a group, along with all the other folks who can't get coverage, or those who feel that they don't get a good product from their private insurer (say my girlfriend and her child), and use them as negotiating power, all from an institution beholden to policy holders in lieu of share holders, and you might actually be able to make large-scale changes in the way medical care is bought and sold.

Free healthcare my foot. I just want healthcare. Period. Until the insurance companies actually start competing, and not legally fixing prices due to the 1945 anti-trust exemption, I would rather put my faith into a publicly funded (read purchased) alternative, than to a bunch of corporations who are legally bound to provide profit to their share holders. ∎

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I have worked a lot of different jobs over the years. I have waited tables, been a barista (not at Starbucks), installed and repaired phone systems, been a PC Tech, a sound engineer, and a freelance web designer. I have not been insured by an employer. Matter of fact, I cannot get insurance, even if I pay for it myself.

Why? Because I received counseling, and I was prescribed anti-depressants. Now, no one will insure me. Apparently because I had a rough go of it for awhile in my early 20s, I am I high-risk medical case. The last time I applied for private coverage, I tried a plan with no mental health coverage and a $3000 deductible, thinking, surely I can cover myself strictly against catastrophic injury or a random hospital stay and pay for everything else out of pocket...nope, no way.

I don't, and have never worked for a large corporation. I tend to work for small business owners. People who have no obligation to provide group coverage for their employees because the staff is too small, or places who only schedule 35-hour weeks so they don't have full-time employees.

I work hard, I always have, but I have no health insurance. We need a solution for me and the countless others like me.

Or, take my girlfriend. She teaches at a public elementary school. She pays $300 per month for a plan to cover her and her 5-year-old daughter. This buys her a PPO with a $5,600 family deductible ($2,800 for each of them), offset by a $2000 contribution by her employer to a medical savings account. In short, if she goes over $2000 in medical expenses for her and her daughter, she has to come up with between $800 and $3,600 out of pocket before insurance kicks in (depending on whom the HSA is spent on and who needs care). Tell me this, what teacher has 3-grand sitting around?

Fact is, the market is supposed to provide us with a better product. This clearly has not happened with health insurance. Ask your parents. I did, and my father,(a life-long republican mind you) cannot even begin to describe the difference in value out of the coverage we had when I was a child, and now what is available to me. Its broken, it doesn't work, and we need to fix it.

Why is it broken? Well, for starters, there are so many destitute and uninsured people with credit so jacked they could care less, that many of these folks have taken to going to emergency rooms for general health problems, because they know they can't be turned away. Ever been in Grady in the middle of the night? Unfortunately I have, and what I saw astounded me. The largest trauma center in Georgia had gurneys covering every inch of its hallways, and most everyone in there were getting treatment for respiratory ailments, meanwhile I waited for 6 hours to get stitched up. Do you think any of these people were going to pay for their ER visits? No way, and the bill winds up getting passed on to you, that's right, you. These unpaid bills cause Grady to squeeze more out of those that can pay (the insured), which causes your insurance premiums to go up. Simple.

Now put these people into a group, along with all the other folks who can't get coverage, or those who feel that they don't get a good product from their private insurer (say my girlfriend and her child), and use them as negotiating power, all from an institution beholden to policy holders in lieu of share holders, and you might actually be able to make large-scale changes in the way medical care is bought and sold.

Free healthcare my foot. I just want healthcare. Period. Until the insurance companies actually start competing, and not legally fixing prices due to the 1945 anti-trust exemption, I would rather put my faith into a publicly funded (read purchased) alternative, than to a bunch of corporations who are legally bound to provide profit to their share holders. ∎

Everything is black and white in a republican's world. there are no shades of gray. Anything but logic is definitely the place for them to be posting.

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If you mean sitting in REV. Wright's pews for 20 years being Christian then I think we have a different meaning of the word?

I guess you call the republicans blocking unemployment benefits (for the victims of Wall

Street's greed) christian . How about denying health care to 45 million Americans?

I guess that is christian too. You're right.Your version of "Christian" is a lot different than most.

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Regardless of how you see things, the government shouldnt run health care. Should they hold them in check? Of course, but they shouldnt be in charge. Public option is just one vote away from mandatory.

You want to talk about Christian, fine. It should be the Church taking in those that dont have health care and taking care them. Making sure that they have what they need. The Church are the ones that should be doing more. Every Christian should be doing their part to asure that everyone gets the care they need, not the government.

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