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DaMeatTroughsEgo

Why do liberals

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A baby is a baby at conception. You can tell yourself any lie you want to, but a fetus is a human being. EVERY human being goes through stages of development, doesnt make them any less human. The moment the sperm and egg merge and the woman becomes pregnant that is a human being.

Not at all.

Now as far as the whole "you have no right to tell a woman what to do with her body", THATS NOT HER BODY SHES KILLING THATS ANOTHER LIFE. You close minded, selfish people that actually believe that a woman has the right to commit murder because the person is inside her blow me away. What kind of thinking is that? I find it shocking that abortion is legal but murder is not. In fact, anyone associated with an abortion is an accessory to murder. Think about it. You can use all the science and loop holes you want to try to throw at me, but in the end that is a life you are taking. That is actually premeditated murder.

No it isn't. She's deciding to not allow the fetus to be inside of her. A fetus cannot have a claim to another individual's body by right - it belongs only to the woman. The fetus is removed. It dies, because it cannot sustain life on its own.

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I find it funny that you even try to fight that with "In God We Trust" on our money and "One Nation Under God" in our pledge.

From the U.S. Treasury Fact Sheet:

The motto IN GOD WE TRUST was placed on United States coins largely because of the increased religious sentiment existing during the Civil War. Secretary of the Treasury Salmon P. Chase received many appeals from devout persons throughout the country, urging that the United States recognize the Deity on United States coins. From Treasury Department records, it appears that the first such appeal came in a letter dated November 13, 1861.

...and later on...

A law passed by the 84th Congress (P.L. 84-140) and approved by the President on July 30, 1956, the President approved a Joint Resolution of the 84th Congress, declaring IN GOD WE TRUST the national motto of the United States. IN GOD WE TRUST was first used on paper money in 1957, when it appeared on the one-dollar silver certificate. The first paper currency bearing the motto entered circulation on October 1, 1957. The Bureau of Engraving and Printing (BEP) was converting to the dry intaglio printing process. During this conversion, it gradually included IN GOD WE TRUST in the back design of all classes and denominations of currency.

From The U.S. Senate Reference Pages:

Congress formally recognized the Pledge of Allegiance–first written in 1892–on December 28, 1945. In 1999, a New Hampshire resident contacted the office of Senator Robert Smith to inquire why the Senate did not follow the House, which had incorporated the Pledge into its proceedings 11 years earlier. Spurred by this inquiry, the Senate amended its standing rules on June 23, 1999, providing for the presiding officer to lead the body in the Pledge at the start of each daily session. President Pro Tempore Strom Thurmond inaugurated this tradition on the following day

...not to mention that "Under God" was not added until 1954.

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There are more if you want them. This was a nation founded on Christianity. So Ill put it like you did. If you dont like it, you are free to go. I want this country put back the way it started. For those that dont agree, nothing is holding anyone here.

Here are some other quotes:

Religion is a subject on which I have ever been most scrupulously reserved. I have considered it as a matter between every man and his Maker in which no other, and far less the public, had a right to intermeddle.

-- Thomas Jefferson, to Richard Rush, 1813

I consider the government of the United States as interdicted by the Constitution from intermeddling in religious institutions, their doctrines, discipline, or exercises. This results not only from the provision that no law shall be made respecting the establishment, or free exercise, of religion, but from that also which reserves to the states the powers not delegated to the United States. Certainly, no power to prescribe any religious exercise or to assume authority in religious discipline has been delegated to the General Government. It must then rest with the states, as far as it can be in any human authority.

But it is only proposed that I should recommend, not prescribe a day of fasting & prayer. That is, that I should indirectly assume to the US an authority over religious exercises which the Constitution has directly precluded them from.... I do not believe it is for the interest of religion to invite the civil magistrate to direct it's exercises, it's discipline, or it's doctrines; nor of the religious societies that the general government should be invested with the power of effecting any uniformity of time or matter among them. Fasting & prayer are religious exercises. The enjoining them an act of discipline. Every religious society has a right to determine for itself the times for these exercises, & the objects proper for them, according to their own particular tenets; and this right can never be safer than in their own hands, where the constitution has deposited it. I am aware that the practice of my predecessors may be quoted.... Be this as it may, every one must act according to the dictates of his own reason, & mine tells me that civil powers alone have been given to the President of the US and no authority to direct the religious exercises of his constituents.

-- Thomas Jefferson, to Samuel Miller, January 23, 1808

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Believing that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their Legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State.

-- Thomas Jefferson, to Danbury Baptists, 1802

Christianity neither is, nor ever was, a part of the common law.

-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814,

The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man.

-- Thomas Jefferson, to Jeremiah Moor, 1800

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"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies."

-- Benjamin Franklin

“Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. I had hoped that liberal and enlightened thought would have reconciled the Christians so that their [not our?] religious fights would not endanger the peace of Society.”

-- George Washington Letter to Sir Edward Newenham, June 22, 1792

If a sect arises whose tenets would subvert morals, good sense has fair play and reasons and laughs it out of doors without suffering the State to be troubled with it.

-- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82

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"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear."

-- Thomas Jefferson

" The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity." - John Adams [note] John Adams was a Unitarian

Oh...and lest I forget....

The First Amendment

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..."

Article VI, Section 3, The Constitution of the United States of America

"...no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."

Got that last one from a page on The Ayn Rand Center for Individual Rights (You know, every good conservative's favorite author)

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My point is, The Founding Fathers, were men of The Enlightenment, not men of Christ. In fact These United States (as they were called back then...up until The Civil War) were the great experiment of the prevailing philosophy of the day. In a nutshell, the application of scientific reasoning to everything, and the application of equality to political and social systems.

RockPaperScissors likes this

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Thank you, pontiac. I was too lazy to copy and paste those quotes. Hopefully this guy will actually read them and digest them.

My pleasure. Nothing bothers me more than misinformation. I rather hope that this thread doesn't die though.

Cheers.

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Well, to those that believe abortions are right, please never have sex, Id hate for a baby to have to die just because you are foolish. Its ashame that 40,000,000 babies had to die so that you can "enjoy yourself" with no concequences. Well maybe not all of them, but most are from teen pregnancy.

Its ashame that most the voices that have spoken up in this thread are Pro-Death. Thats right, I said it. A baby removed from the womb will die. Dont sweeten it up and call it Pro-Choice. Whos choice, not the child's. Have you ever seen an abortion? The little hands and feet broken apart from the body, in pieces. How can you sit there and cold heartedly say thats ok? Are you not human? Where is your compassion? There is never a reason for an abortion, never. Fight this one, "Thou Shalt Not Kill". Abortion is murder, therefore its wrong. Tell yourself whatever you want, doesnt change it.

Funny how you try to prove to me that this isnt a Christian nation either. Founded by a bunch of men very active in the church. Some even pastors, but you wouldnt know that now would you. So go on, thinking you know everything and Im some dumb moron, Christ following, Bible thumper. I dont care, it doesnt change a thing.

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Well, to those that believe abortions are right, please never have sex, Id hate for a baby to have to die just because you are foolish. Its ashame that 40,000,000 babies had to die so that you can "enjoy yourself" with no concequences. Well maybe not all of them, but most are from teen pregnancy.

Its ashame that most the voices that have spoken up in this thread are Pro-Death. Thats right, I said it. A baby removed from the womb will die. Dont sweeten it up and call it Pro-Choice. Whos choice, not the child's. Have you ever seen an abortion? The little hands and feet broken apart from the body, in pieces. How can you sit there and cold heartedly say thats ok? Are you not human? Where is your compassion? There is never a reason for an abortion, never. Fight this one, "Thou Shalt Not Kill". Abortion is murder, therefore its wrong. Tell yourself whatever you want, doesnt change it.

Funny how you try to prove to me that this isnt a Christian nation either. Founded by a bunch of men very active in the church. Some even pastors, but you wouldnt know that now would you. So go on, thinking you know everything and Im some dumb moron, Christ following, Bible thumper. I dont care, it doesnt change a thing.

Red Herring Alert!!!

You change the topic of discussion so much that I don't know what to debate you on. You brought up abortion in a topic asking the question, "Why do liberals hate America?" I'm not quite so sure how that is exactly relevant, but I'll take the bait nonetheless.

On Man's Law

The thing that I find humorous about the abortion debate is mainly the folks that are so adamant that abortions be outlawed are the same who decry the loss of personal freedom and self-determination in this so-called, "liberal age." The fact remains that abortions are not "legal" so much as the Burger Court ruled that laws restricting abortion were unconstitutional, hinging this upon the right to privacy as protected by the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. You know, the one that states:

No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Now I understand that you and many others abhor the idea of abortion. The irony is that most of those who are so adamant about this issue are, in turn, adamant about the loss of personal freedoms in today's United States. Legally speaking, first trimester abortions fall under the umbrella of protected speech between a woman and her doctor. Nothing more. Say what you will about the morality of it, due to legal precedent, the only way to ban abortions in the United States is to amend the Constitution.

It is very unlikely that any Supreme Court, regardless of composition, will overturn or conflict a previous ruling due to the governing legal principle of stare decisis. Even John Roberts has said, "Well, that determination in Casey becomes one of the precedents of the court, entitled to respect like any other precedent of the court, under principles of stare decisis. That is a precedent entitled to respect under principles of stare decisis like any other precedent of the court," in reference to the case Planned Parenthood v. Casey, the ruling which upheld Roe (under this same principle).

As a result, the only way to criminalize abortion as I see it (I am not an expert), is to amend the Constitution, be it a state constitution or at the federal level, yet even South Dakota (a state which continually polls as against abortion) has failed twice to pass an amendment challenging Roe.

My point is this, without a specific override of the Fourteenth Amendment as it relates to abortion, the only way to stop it is to tear up the whole Constitution, and all the personal freedoms it [supposedly?] affords us.

On God's Law

Now, I am no Biblical scholar, but the Bible says:

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. 29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. (King James Version, Gen. 1.28:30)

Right? Moving on from there, God put a seed-bearing herb on the earth which we have named Black Cohosh. It has long been used to treat menopausal symptoms in women, but it also has the effect of inducing labor, even before the fetus is viable. In short, there is at least one herb growing on this planet which will force a miscarriage (and an early term abortion performed by a doctor is nothing but that, a forced miscarriage). And lest my eyes deceive me, God gave it to man as meat.

I know that I will get called out as misrepresenting the Bible. Fair enough. I will say this though, according God's Law, we have been given dominion over all plants and seed-bearing herbs. Now this does not mean God will not judge us for our actions, but we do have a recourse for disrupting a pregnancy given to us naturally, and a clinical abortion is a recourse available in modern society.

My point is this. Let God judge those who have chosen that path. Let God also offer forgiveness and repentance to those too. I think he can do a better job than you or I.

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Funny how you try to prove to me that this isnt a Christian nation either. Founded by a bunch of men very active in the church. Some even pastors, but you wouldnt know that now would you. So go on, thinking you know everything and Im some dumb moron, Christ following, Bible thumper. I dont care, it doesnt change a thing.

Moving on to the third paragraph. I proved nothing, all I did was refute two of your claims, the two claims on which you based your entire argument. By the way, I never called you names, so stop with your appeal to pity.

The point I am trying to make, which will become clear if you read the quotes, is that though this nation may have been founded by religious men (even men of the cloth), it was not founded to be ruled by religious law. This was one of the reasons why we split from England. England was a religious kingdom, the Anglican Church was the official religion, and men had to adhere to its tenets. This is why the Quakers and other religious minorities came here in the first place, to seek out a land where they could practice in peace, and their beliefs would fall outside of the arm of the government.

I have no problem with you thinking that this is a Christian Nation. The vast majority of religious practitioners are, in fact, Christian. A quick count of the U.S. Census list on denominations yields 74 denominations, or groups of churches, this includes Catholics and Orthodox practitioners (they's the o.g. protestants y'hear). I know many Christian Conservatives do not like to include these folks as "real Christians," so let's take them out. That brings us down to about 50% the people in this country calling themselves "Protestant."

Ok, let's dig a little deeper. Why don't we go ahead and toss out Unitarians, Episcopals (they can't even figure out whether homosexuality wrong, eh?), Methodists (they're mostly liberals), Northern Baptists (a bunch of hippies, they), about half the Presbyterians, and so on. Point is, when you break it down, the "Christian Right," is a political minority in this country, a loud one, but a minority nonetheless. According to a recent survey 1 in 3 Americans consider themselves to be "evangelical," and while that number is growing, so is the number of non-believers (1 in 5 answered none or did not answer with a preference).

Say what you will about the belief systems of the Founding Fathers, they crafted this nation to be, "For the people, by the people," and though it may be unfortunate to you, God's Law as The Law, doesn't sit well with the majority of people in this country.

If the idea was to put God above all else here, it would have been pretty simple to craft that idea into the documents on which this country was founded. But they weren't written like that. They were written for all men, they were written so that the clergy couldn't force the hand of government, and so that people could not be abused due to their belief system.

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Ok, I wont argue with you over abortion, IMO its murder plain and simple. The mere fact that we have an herb on Earth that causes miscarriages means nothing. Do we not have the ability to choose not to partake of this? So in fact, if you are pregnant and you do partake are you not purposely killing a child or trying to? To say that this was put here to create miscarriages would be to say that we as human beings cant make a judgment on what we eat and when.

You bring up the rights of the mother over and over again. I ask you one thing. Does the child not have rights?

Now, have you ever seen the Supreme Court? Why are there carvings of Moses holding the 10 commandments? The ACLU has gotten the 10 commandments taken out of local courts, but I ask why. If they are carved in the Supreme Court then why cant we have them on the local level. What is so bad about them that they need to be banned?

My argument about this being a Christian nation is not to say that other religions arent free to worship here. My point was to say that we need to get back to the Christian principles that this nation was founded on. Im not speaking of the laws, thats what you are stuck on. The morals and principals this nation is founded on are Christian. Now, is it hard to see that this nation has lost just about all of its morality.

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Heres something else for the Liberal crowd.

To the Congress:

The U.S. Postal Service was established in 1775 - you have had 234 years to get it right; it is broke.

Social Security was established in 1935 - you have had 74 years to get it right; it is broke.

Fannie Mae was established in 1938 - you have had 71 years to get it right; it is broke.

The "War on Poverty" started in 1964 - you have had 45 years to get it right; $1 trillion of our money is confiscated each year and transferred to "the poor"; it hasn't worked and our entire country is broke.

Medicare and Medicaid were established in 1965 - you've had 44 years to get it right; they are broke.

Freddie Mac was established in 1970 - you have had 39 years to get it right; it is broke.

Trillions of dollars were spent in the massive political payoffs called TARP, the "Stimulus", the Omnibus Appropriations Act of 2009... none show anysigns of working, although ACORN appears to have found a new b***h: the American taxpayer.

And finally, to set a new record:

"Cash for Clunkers" was established in 2009 and went broke in 2009! It took good dependable cars (that were the best some people could afford) and replaced them with high-priced and less-affordable cars, mostly Japanese. A good percentage of the profits went out of the country. And the American taxpayers take the hit for Congress' generosity in burning three billion more of our dollars on failed experiments..

So with a perfect 100% failure rate and a record that proves that "services" you shove down our throats are failing faster and faster, you want Americans to believe you can be trusted with a government-run health care system?

20% of our entire economy?

With all due respect,

Are you crazy?

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I love how you come in here and challenge my knowledge but you have absolutely nothing to back up your accusations. If you dont have anything to add to the conversation why dont you move on to the next thread.

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I CAN TELL YOU WHY WE HATE YOU.

NEVER THOUGHT THAT ELECTION WOULD

COME OUT LIKE THAT DID YOU? IT WAS A

STINGING INDICTMENT, AND A BITTER PILL

FOR THE CONSERVATIVE JOKERS TO

SWALLOW ... the pain and agony of defeat. :lol::lol::lol:

:D

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Hmmmm, Ive said why I dont think Obama is the man for the job and yet it still boils down to being a sore loser. I guess this is why I cant stand liberials, you are too stubborn to see that you are wrong. I dont care if a democrat, republican, or any other party is in there as long as I believe in what they stand for. Sorry, I cant get behind what Obama stands for. Im happy for you if you can. When this country goes from recession to depression, dont come crying to me. Remember, you won and obviously thats all you are worried about. I wish an election was the worst of our problems. Try telling that to the folks in Washington.

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You bring up the rights of the mother over and over again. I ask you one thing. Does the child not have rights?

A child certainly has rights. A fetus does not.

My argument about this being a Christian nation is not to say that other religions arent free to worship here. My point was to say that we need to get back to the Christian principles that this nation was founded on. Im not speaking of the laws, thats what you are stuck on. The morals and principals this nation is founded on are Christian. Now, is it hard to see that this nation has lost just about all of its morality.

No we don't. No it isn't.

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Heres something else for the Liberal crowd.

To the Congress:

The U.S. Postal Service was established in 1775 - you have had 234 years to get it right; it is broke.

Social Security was established in 1935 - you have had 74 years to get it right; it is broke.

Fannie Mae was established in 1938 - you have had 71 years to get it right; it is broke.

The "War on Poverty" started in 1964 - you have had 45 years to get it right; $1 trillion of our money is confiscated each year and transferred to "the poor"; it hasn't worked and our entire country is broke.

Medicare and Medicaid were established in 1965 - you've had 44 years to get it right; they are broke.

Freddie Mac was established in 1970 - you have had 39 years to get it right; it is broke.

Trillions of dollars were spent in the massive political payoffs called TARP, the "Stimulus", the Omnibus Appropriations Act of 2009... none show anysigns of working, although ACORN appears to have found a new b***h: the American taxpayer.

And finally, to set a new record:

"Cash for Clunkers" was established in 2009 and went broke in 2009! It took good dependable cars (that were the best some people could afford) and replaced them with high-priced and less-affordable cars, mostly Japanese. A good percentage of the profits went out of the country. And the American taxpayers take the hit for Congress' generosity in burning three billion more of our dollars on failed experiments..

So with a perfect 100% failure rate and a record that proves that "services" you shove down our throats are failing faster and faster, you want Americans to believe you can be trusted with a government-run health care system?

20% of our entire economy?

With all due respect,

Are you crazy?

Fortunately, I am not liberal.

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A child certainly has rights. A fetus does not.

No we don't. No it isn't.

So you are saying that we dont need to get back to loving one another, being kind to one another, treating others how you want to be treated? All these principles dont apply to the times we are living in? Hmmmmmm, I guess its worse than I thought.

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So you are saying that we dont need to get back to loving one another, being kind to one another, treating others how you want to be treated? All these principles dont apply to the times we are living in? Hmmmmmm, I guess its worse than I thought.

None of those ideas are uniquely christian, or christian-invented.

The cutthroat capitalism/individualism that this country was created with certainly does not ordain any christian pretenses. Your "christian" foundation is nothing more than revisionism. Of course there were religious and christian individuals at such times, quite more so than there are now. But that is irrelevant to how the government was formed. There is a reason your deity is not mentioned (at all) in the constitution, and its because your religion is not the all-guiding foundation that you seem to believe.

No sir, if you're looking for explicitly christian nations, you'll have to turn your eyes to the tyrannies of the old-world absolute monarchies. Man has moved beyond needing a state deity for governance.

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Actually its fairly easy to see why God isnt mentioned in the Constitution. Not because this nation wasnt founded by Christians, but because there is freedom of religion. If you were to involve God in the Constitution that would mandate a religion and in turn take the rights of many away from them. So just because God is not mentioned in the Constitution does not mean this country was not founded on Christianity.

Ill tell you one thing, it wasnt founded by Atheists as yourself. :lol:

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