Jump to content

Sack expectations: Playing LDE vs RDE (they are different positions folks)


gazoo
 Share

Recommended Posts

Playing RDE, you play what is known as the "weak" side and get to rush the QB from his blindside so he can see you coming. Playng LDE, you play the "strong" side and typically have the TE as an additional blocker and face much more mass coming at you over a season. The prototypical RDE has a different build and skill set than the prototypical LDE. For instance, John Abraham would never make it through a full year starting at LDE, he's not built for it. He can play there in certain matchups, but I'm talking about starting there.

That said, out of 64 starting DEs in 2008 , only 7 had more than 10 sacks in the regular season and only 2 of them were LDEs..

DEs with over 10 sacks last year

John Abraham RDE

Dwight Freeny RDE

Jared Allen RDE

Julieus Peppers RDE

Mario Williams RDE

Justin Tuck LDE

Robert Mathis LDE

This analysis is not to compare, but instead to **contrast** the two positions. Please stop comparing the sack stats of LDEs with RDEs. They are not the same position. In fact, look at Julius Peppers sack numbers when he switched from RDE to LDE for a season:

2006 @ RDE = 13 sacks

2007 @ LDE = 2.5 sacks

2008 @ RDE = 14.5 sacks.

Peppers was getting 6 times the sacks playing RDE he did at LDE. It's a different position folks.

For the record, if JA98 gets around 6-7 sacks this year while moving inside often on 3rd down , and if he plays excellent run defense and is in the backfield disrupting running and passing plays, flushing the QB out, getting QB hits, I'm sure he will have had a very successful season to the front office, coaches ,his teammates and many of the reasonable, informed objective fans that understand the considerable difference between playing LDE and RDE

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 294
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I am hoping that JA98 can muster up 6-8 sack, but i dont think that he will have many chances to move inside it is already crowded on the inside with Lewis, Jerry, Babs, Johnson, Walker. I have my doubts about the probability of that happening but i like what i have heard about him staying focused this offseason and getting into shape to improve on his game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dude, if JA98 gets 7 sacks or more this year, I'll be dancin a little jig all season long!

That's all I ever expect out of the LDE position.

Pressure the QB, stuff the run, and contribute a half dozen or so sacks. That'd be great!

"Pressure the QB, stuff the run, and contribute a half dozen or so sacks."

I like the fact you take into consideration more than just a sack stat as some do. Playing LDE, we need a heII of a lot more than just a sack stat to be a good defense, we need JA98 to be effective in run defense and to be disruptive as well.

Hitting a QB a few times in a game can make a tremendous difference , yet never show up on the fantasy league GMs stat sheet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am hoping that JA98 can muster up 6-8 sack, but i dont think that he will have many chances to move inside it is already crowded on the inside with Lewis, Jerry, Babs, Johnson, Walker. I have my doubts about the probability of that happening but i like what i have heard about him staying focused this offseason and getting into shape to improve on his game.

one thing is for sure, this DL is going to be a heck of a lot of fun to see come together (if it comes together)

If things go as I suspect they will, we will be bad to the bone up front, but we do need some combination of JA98 , Jerry and Trey Lewis to step up for it to happen....maybe even Beirmann will excel in run defense with the added weight. We can count on Babs and Davis.

I can;t wait

Link to comment
Share on other sites

one thing is for sure, this DL is going to be a heck of a lot of fun to see come together (if it comes together)

If things go as I suspect they will, we will be bad to the bone up front, but we do need some combination of JA98 , Jerry and Trey Lewis to step up for it to happen....maybe even Beirmann will excel in run defense with the added weight. We can count on Babs and Davis.

I can;t wait

Yeah I am truly pumped about our DLine out of all the positions even more so than the offense. I have my thoughts about our CB but i plead the 5th but if you really want to know you can always check out the Sig. LOL

Link to comment
Share on other sites

John abraham got a couple sacks playing LDE too, they flipped him around alot last season

John Abraham could get sacks lined up at OLB or S if he had the right matchup in front of him. That's not really the point though.

That said, John Abraham would not be able to take the pounding of a full season starting at LDE, but JA98 is built to take it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Pressure the QB, stuff the run, and contribute a half dozen or so sacks."

I like the fact you take into consideration more than just a sack stat as some do. Playing LDE, we need a heII of a lot more than just a sack stat to be a good defense, we need JA98 to be effective in run defense and to be disruptive as well.

Hitting a QB a few times in a game can make a tremendous difference , yet never show up on the fantasy league GMs stat sheet.

I think playing stout against the run is the most important job of the LDE.

Furthermore, I could care less about sacks. QB pressures and hits are far more important to me than the occassional sack. QB pressures create many more turnovers than sacks do and QB hits create bad decision making on the QB's part.

What was our defensive motto a few years ago "Sacks are a production of good pass coverage. INTs are a production of a good pass rush." Give me hurries and hits any day of the week.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6+ Sacks a season for a LDE is really good.... With you Gazoo but on the other hand you have to understand the otherside...... When you look at Jamaal Anderson draft spot + measurable + talent........ should equal Justin Tuck type production.

I agree... i think Jamaal will have a good season but you have to understand the guys who is not high on him point of view also.

One funny thing is when Peppers played LDE he had his worse year ever in 07....... The Panthers moved him back to RDE (main position)

But yea.. its a difference between a LDE that bangs with that 330+ pound RT all day and a RDE that switch to the left side to pass rush.......

Thats why the Colts start Brock as their starting LDE but mainly use Robert Mathis to rush the QB on passing downs from the LDE position

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6+ Sacks a season for a LDE is really good.... With you Gazoo but on the other hand you have to understand the otherside...... When you look at Jamaal Anderson draft spot + measurable + talent........ should equal Justin Tuck type production.

I agree... i think Jamaal will have a good season but you have to understand the guys who is not high on him point of view also.

One funny thing is when Peppers played LDE he had his worse year ever in 07....... The Panthers moved him back to RDE (main position)

I agree whey you look at JA98 measurable and talent potential you expect him to be like Tuck or a Kerney. i have mixed emotions about JA98, so i have a wait and see attitude.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

JA98 is already pretty good against the run. the interior of our dline was the weaker part of our run D. most of the big runs came right up the gut. the draws, the delays and just inside runs. that should be fixed though with peria and babs.

i'm not worried about JA98 this year though. i think the sacks will come. he's in his 3rd year (he has a good bit of exp) and with the talent on our dline we surrounded him with i think there's no way he can't be successful. if he gets 5 sacks this year and good pressure, which i expect him to do, it won't even be a problem. i think with the talent around him and abe, ray hamilton, etc to mentor him there's no way he can't be successful on this team unless he just doesn't put forth the work.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

JA98 is already pretty good against the run. the interior of our dline was the weaker part of our run D. most of the big runs came right up the gut. the draws, the delays and just inside runs. that should be fixed though with peria and babs.

i'm not worried about JA98 this year though. i think the sacks will come. he's in his 3rd year (he has a good bit of exp) and with the talent on our dline we surrounded him with i think there's no way he can't be successful. if he gets 5 sacks this year and good pressure, which i expect him to do, it won't even be a problem. i think with the talent around him and abe, ray hamilton, etc to mentor him there's no way he can't be successful on this team unless he just doesn't put forth the work.

I agree boss our interior was horrible outside of babs, we got killed on alot of draw plays and delays up the gut. I hurt everytime i say teams run plays up the middle. :(

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6+ Sacks a season for a LDE is really good.... With you Gazoo but on the other hand you have to understand the otherside...... When you look at Jamaal Anderson draft spot + measurable + talent........ should equal Justin Tuck type production.

I agree... i think Jamaal will have a good season but you have to understand the guys who is not high on him point of view also.

One funny thing is when Peppers played LDE he had his worse year ever in 07....... The Panthers moved him back to RDE (main position)

I definitely understand that argument. But I have to say that I hate that type of thinking.

Who cares where his draft position was? What's done is done.

So, does a player who was an UDFA who plays equal time and gets 3 sacks a year better than a player who went in the top 10 who gets 4 sacks a year? No. Even though the second player isn't playing much better than the UDFA, he's still the better player.

What I'm getting at is that after the draft is over, it's over. A player should only be measured on their production, potential, heck even salary (that is, if the player's contract is hindering the team in any way). But to hold a grudge against someone based on where they were taken in the draft just gets on my nerves.

To put it another way, those who want to talk about JA98's lack of production are fine. But those that want to talk about his lack of production "for a player drafted that high" make no sense to me. He's either a productive player, and valuable, or he's not. Draft position isn't a factor in that debate.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I definitely understand that argument. But I have to say that I hate that type of thinking.

Who cares where his draft position was? What's done is done.

So, does a player who was an UDFA who plays equal time and gets 3 sacks a year better than a player who went in the top 10 who gets 4 sacks a year? No. Even though the second player isn't playing much better than the UDFA, he's still the better player.

What I'm getting at is that after the draft is over, it's over. A player should only be measured on their production, potential, heck even salary (that is, if the player's contract is hindering the team in any way). But to hold a grudge against someone based on where they were taken in the draft just gets on my nerves.

To put it another way, those who want to talk about JA98's lack of production are fine. But those that want to talk about his lack of production "for a player drafted that high" make no sense to me. He's either a productive player, and valuable, or he's not. Draft position isn't a factor in that debate.

good point. jenkins was a first round pick an you usually expect first round picks to give you 1,000 yd seasons as wideouts and become probowlers. jenkins hasn't done that but he's helped us just as much. he's provided us with clutch catches and has become a consisent pass catcher. he's also a good compliment for roddy. if you go by what most 1st round wideouts do then jenkins is a bust, but with what he's given us lately it's really hard to call him that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I definitely understand that argument. But I have to say that I hate that type of thinking.

Who cares where his draft position was? What's done is done.

So, does a player who was an UDFA who plays equal time and gets 3 sacks a year better than a player who went in the top 10 who gets 4 sacks a year? No. Even though the second player isn't playing much better than the UDFA, he's still the better player.

What I'm getting at is that after the draft is over, it's over. A player should only be measured on their production, potential, heck even salary (that is, if the player's contract is hindering the team in any way). But to hold a grudge against someone based on where they were taken in the draft just gets on my nerves.

To put it another way, those who want to talk about JA98's lack of production are fine. But those that want to talk about his lack of production "for a player drafted that high" make no sense to me. He's either a productive player, and valuable, or he's not. Draft position isn't a factor in that debate.

I am just disappointed based on his potential, and the fact that JA98 may not have dedicated himself 100% to getting better and realizing that he has to earn his spot and it is not going to be given to him IMO, but i am not JA98 so i dont know what went on in his head. If he can get that inside rep technique improved that would be a great start. :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am just disappointed based on his potential, and the fact that JA98 may not have dedicated himself 100% to getting better and realizing that he has to earn his spot and it is not going to be given to him IMO, but i am not JA98 so i dont know what went on in his head. If he can get that inside rep technique improved that would be a great start. :D

Oh, I can agree with this sentiment. His potential is huge.

But then again, he came into this league as a project. His technique was awful. This was a known downside to his game. But whether he's been working hard or not, none of us really know.

Allow me back on my soapbox a bit here. :P

I read all kinds of hate on here because Chuck Smith said he turned down his offer to go to his camp last summer. But why did he do that? Maybe he had a freakin' doctor's appointment. Maybe his auntie was getting married. Maybe it fell on his dad's birthday. The fact is we have no idea why he turned down Smith's offer. But to assume he wasn't working hard was a rediculous leap.

Now, once he attended Smith's camp and Smith commented how hard JA98's been working, I don't see the same "wow, JA's on a mission" or "I wish all of our players worked as hard as JA does" types of threads. It's a bit hypocritical of those bashers.

I have no problem discussing with someone who maybe hasn't noticed any improvements in JA98's game or thinks he simply is not getting it. But to assume he's not trying is just that...an assumption.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh, I can agree with this sentiment. His potential is huge.

But then again, he came into this league as a project. His technique was awful. This was a known downside to his game. But whether he's been working hard or not, none of us really know.

Allow me back on my soapbox a bit here. :P

I read all kinds of hate on here because Chuck Smith said he turned down his offer to go to his camp last summer. But why did he do that? Maybe he had a freakin' doctor's appointment. Maybe his auntie was getting married. Maybe it fell on his dad's birthday. The fact is we have no idea why he turned down Smith's offer. But to assume he wasn't working hard was a rediculous leap.

Now, once he attended Smith's camp and Smith commented how hard JA98's been working, I don't see the same "wow, JA's on a mission" or "I wish all of our players worked as hard as JA does" types of threads. It's a bit hypocritical of those bashers.

I have no problem discussing with someone who maybe hasn't noticed any improvements in JA98's game or thinks he simply is not getting it. But to assume he's not trying is just that...an assumption.

I think that the issue was the fact that Chuck smith put it out there that he didnt go to his camp the first year and we dont know why, but Abe commented on JA98 indicating that he decline help from him, his own teammate and their is not too many reasons why you decline that, then you add in the fact JA98 production his first year = not a good look for a guy replacing Kerney at LDE. I did see improvements in JA98 game last year, but I was still a little disappointed based on my expectations from his college production and his measurables. I like the fact there are reports that he has come into camp in better shape physically, I am just hoping it translates into production on the field in the passing game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that the issue was the fact that Chuck smith put it out there that he didnt go to his camp the first year and we dont know why, but Abe commented on JA98 indicating that he decline help from him, his own teammate and their is not too many reasons why you decline that, then you add in the fact JA98 production his first year = not a good look for a guy replacing Kerney at LDE. I did see improvements in JA98 game last year, but I was still a little disappointed based on my expectations from his college production and his measurables. I like the fact there are reports that he has come into camp in better shape physically, I am just hoping it translates into production on the field in the passing game.

That Chuck Smith thing really bothered me to...... It was not only his first year but chuck offered it last offseason also....... That ticked me off because all the pass rushers that has worked with Chuck Smith has improved ... Even Chauncey Davis.......Jamaal Anderson can be a beast..... He just has to get that dog in him...... That i want to be the best in him...... Thats what happen with Roddy White

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Playing RDE, you play what is known as the "weak" side and get to rush the QB from his blindside so he can see you coming. Playng LDE, you play the "strong" side and typically have the TE as an additional blocker and face much more mass coming at you over a season. The prototypical RDE has a different build and skill set than the prototypical LDE. For instance, John Abraham would never make it through a full year starting at LDE, he's not built for it. He can play there in certain matchups, but I'm talking about starting there.

That said, out of 64 starting DEs in 2008 , only 7 had more than 10 sacks in the regular season and only 2 of them were LDEs..

DEs with over 10 sacks last year

John Abraham RDE

Dwight Freeny RDE

Jared Allen RDE

Julieus Peppers RDE

Mario Williams RDE

Justin Tuck LDE

Robert Mathis LDE

This analysis is not t compare, but instead to **contrast** the two positions. Please stop comparing the sack stats of LDEs with RDEs. They are not the same position.

For the record, if JA98 gets around 6-7 sacks this year while moving inside often on 3rd down , and if he plays excellent run defense and is in the backfield disrupting running and passing plays, flushing the QB out, getting QB hits, I'm sure he will have had a very successful season to the front office, coaches ,his teammates and many of the reasonable, informed objective fans that understand the considerable difference between playing LDE and RDE

I'm with you on this in general. If Anderson had 6 or so sacks last year, I don't think anyone (or at least many) would have any problems. Your LDE normally is a 6-8 sack guy if he's good, as opposed to a 12 sack guy for RDE.

But regardless, pressure is more important from all positions. I'll take the guy who gets 20 pressures and 4 sacks all day long over the guy who gets 8 sacks and 9 pressures. What you want is a QB never feeling he has time to get rid of the ball...not a QB who normally has time, and occasionally gets tackled.

The flip to this is, you often don't draft your LDE in the top of the 1st. If you do, he has higher expectations. However, I'm with VOR that once you've drafted them, you're only comparing salary against production. If he can get hurries and good run D, and come up with 6-8 sacks, I'd be psyched.

I've been disappointed because he didn't display a lot of what coaches used to call "want to." Just meaning he didn't show that fire. The wonderful thing about football is, you can change that in an instant. If he does, our defense will be far better than if he doesn't, so I'm definitely rooting for it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Playing RDE, you play what is known as the "weak" side and get to rush the QB from his blindside so he can see you coming. Playng LDE, you play the "strong" side and typically have the TE as an additional blocker and face much more mass coming at you over a season. The prototypical RDE has a different build and skill set than the prototypical LDE. For instance, John Abraham would never make it through a full year starting at LDE, he's not built for it. He can play there in certain matchups, but I'm talking about starting there.

That said, out of 64 starting DEs in 2008 , only 7 had more than 10 sacks in the regular season and only 2 of them were LDEs..

DEs with over 10 sacks last year

John Abraham RDE

Dwight Freeny RDE

Jared Allen RDE

Julieus Peppers RDE

Mario Williams RDE

Justin Tuck LDE

Robert Mathis LDE

This analysis is not t compare, but instead to **contrast** the two positions. Please stop comparing the sack stats of LDEs with RDEs. They are not the same position.

I think most fans know that weakside pass rushers (RDE) are more sack oriented than LDEs. The problem is that this argument holds absolutely no water in defense of Anderson's poor play. He has been useless in the pass game and decent, not spectacular or even very good, against the run. In his career thus far, he has made exactly THREE tackles behind the line of scrimmage, two being sacks. LDE, RDE, it doesn't matter. The point is that JA98's play to this point has been utterly unacceptable for ANY starting DE. We aren't asking him for ten sacks, just some consistent pressure on the QB and about six times as many sacks as his career average.

if JA98 gets around 6-7 sacks this year while moving inside often on 3rd down , and if he plays excellent run defense and is in the backfield disrupting running and passing plays, flushing the QB out, getting QB hits, I'm sure he will have had a very successful season to the front office, coaches ,his teammates and many of the reasonable, informed objective fans that understand the considerable difference between playing LDE and RDE

So if Anderson all of a sudden becomes a good player and has a good season, he will have had a very successful season? Way to go out on a limb on that one :lol: I don't think anyone on this message board has ever disagreed with this assessment. Hopefully JA98s reported hard work pays off and he steps up to the plate, because it would make the DLine quite potent. If his play doesn't improve, this will be his last season as a Falcon. Luckily for us we have other capable DEs on the team to do the job if Anderson can't.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good stuff. Posted a similar article with some stats to go with it back in March Look Here. Basically, we were 11th in sacks in 08. From teams 1 - 11, 7 ran a base defense like ours. Of those 7 teams running a 4-3 defense, only 1 had 2 starting DE's finish as the top 2 pass rushers for the team (NY Giants). It's not expected by almost any team out there for both their starting DE's to be top pass rushers, the Giants are just the exception to that rule.

and since Tuck was brought up....

If sacks are all you are concerned about, then maybe he has been a bust thus far, but it's still too early to label his entire career that.

Chris Doleman, 150.5 sacks in his career had 3.5 in his first 2 seasons.

Michael Strahan, 141.5 sacks in his career had 5.5 in his first 2 seasons.

Justin Tuck, 1 sack in his first 2 years, played a lot as a rotational DE & DT during that time, similar to JA98.

Kyle Vandenbosh, 3.5 sacs in his first 3 seasons.

I'm NOT saying JA98 is going to turn out like any of these guys, but they do show that you cannot give up on a player too early just because the don't produce the fantasy points. If they are playing well at other facets of the game, and developing, then let them develop. They may never become an NFL sack leader, but it doesn't mean they are necessarily a bust either.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

John abraham got a couple sacks playing LDE too, they flipped him around alot last season

Indeed Abe lined up on the left side about 32% of the time ... and most teams rotate their ends from side to side especially in obvious passing situations

Bottom line is, and everyone can agree, Anderson needs to step up ... he spent 15% of his plays at RDE and didn't produce in those either. He's not as hopeless as everyone makes out (32 sacks, hits or pressures) but for the amount of snaps he sees he needs to be getting at least to 50 (in less snaps Abraham got nearly 80 but then he's a phenom), and some sort of light switch needs to go on because his run defence isn't better than Chauncey Davis' and enough of a reason to keep in the team.

3rd years can be boom or bust years, I'm hopeful he can get 6 sacks and 40-50 hits/ sacks or pressures because he has demonstrated pass rushing ability

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While I do agree with the OP's analysis of expectations from each side there are exceptions.

Kerney had seasons of 10, 12, 13 sacks with us and 14.5 with the Seahawks. All from the left side.

So while the position is different there are players that can succeed there.

Hoping that JA98 gets 6 or 7 sacks is a nice thought but remember he needs to get there just to be proficient at his position and not a stand-out.

Personally I think this year is his last chance. If he cant cut it, its time to find that stand-out player.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share


×
×
  • Create New...