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Falconsfan567

Good Jeff Francoeur article

85 posts in this topic

The beauty of the twins stats of OBP and slugging percentage that is both of them are independent of what happens with other players. Who we have at LF or CF could impact his defensive stats. It would not impact his ability to avoid getting out nor the number of bases he averages per plate appearance. That comment the irrational poster made was a perfect example of trying to place blame elsewhere rather than acknowledge the truth.

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Batting average isn't a useless stat. It accurately shows how often a batter gets a hit which is what it's intended to do. People just need to take all of the stats into account when comparing players.

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I don't think it's going to matter. I'll be surprised if we leave spring training with him slotted to play RF every day. He may make the team as a fourth outfielder, but we're going to replace him. It's too obvious how much he hurt the team this year. In fact, I saw a sabermatrician make the argument that Francoeur alone cost the Braves 49 runs last year. Had he just been an average player, that's how much better our offense would have been. Unless the Braves are convinced they simply cannot do any better, he won't be the guy. I expect them to try to get Dayton Moore or some other young team to take him out of the limelight, which would be good for the team and the kid.

Let's make sure we bring this up at teh end of March.

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"let's just look at Francoeur's on base percentages every month he's been in the majors."

And this is why BA is a terrible evaluator. People can argue folks like Dunn and him for their averages, ignoring the fact that they see more pitches and take at bats deeper into counts. Dunn's batting average of .236 was about the same as Francoeur's .239. The difference between them is that Dunn worked 122 walks while slugging .513. Francoeur only worked 39 walks and slugged .359. On the surface, the batting averages make it seem like they had similar seasons when in reality Dunn was the 9th toughest out in the NL while Francoeur was the second to worst (!). You've just offered the blueprint example of why batting average is such a useless stat. It doesn't accurately reflect what a hitter does at the plate.

well it is a good thing that many disagree with this or they would put up their OBP instead of their avg when they come to the plate. batting average shows exactly what they do with the stick. OBP realize on the pitcher to make mistakes more than what the hitter did. A walk from a pitcher sucks it guarantees that the hitter reaches first, but if they make them swing you have a 50-50. That is what young players do not understand and way to many coaches fail to teach is that it matters more about throwing strikes that how hard you throw. I will still take BA every time since it is a true showing of what they did with the stick and Jeff had a horrible year after 2.5 good years of hitting and before this year he was money with RISP especially with 2 outs. You have found one stat that you love and that Jeff does not add up too and you have stuck with it...great but you are being closed minded and are not seeing the entire picture which is why they keep an entire book of stats they all count.

I will say I truly believe Jeff will never live up to your avg. OBP but that does not make him a bad player. Jeff is a free swinger and he is what he is. The team knew this and are fine with it as long as he does not repeat the 08 season.

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ok I finely understand your point. He only reached the avg. OBP 15 % of the time. ok that is where your 85% comment came from. You never made that clear. Well all stats are kept for a reason. OBP tells avg, plus walks, and errors. it is a good stat I also see avg. used as a very good stat as well. Howard had great stats this year including your OBP, but the media still argued over his poor avg. If you look his had great stats RBI's, HR, OBP and they still said that if he did not win the MVP they thought it would be from his sub par AVG. Jeff will never be a guy you can like because he will never have the type of OBP that you like. I for one will be fine if he gets back to his 270/25/100 seasons and not even worry about him walking.
I actually agree with FalconsFan567. If we had any production at all out of LF or CF (like if Matt Diaz didn't get hurt and performed as well everyday as he did sharing LF duties, or if Kotsay was healthy all season), Francouer's woes wouldn't have been as noticeable.

That is not to make excuses for Jeff, but rather to state how terrible our entire OF was. Gregor Blanco starting as much as he did was a joke. He is a great utility OF, but nothing more.

Our IF came together nicely, even when Kotchman was starting most of the games, and our C is top 5 in the NL (perhaps all of baseball). But our OF production was dismal, and Jeff is a huge reason for that. But even he did bat .265, 18 HRs, 85 RBIs, that still would have left us with very little production from our OF.

well it is a good thing that many disagree with this or they would put up their OBP instead of their avg when they come to the plate. batting average shows exactly what they do with the stick. OBP realize on the pitcher to make mistakes more than what the hitter did. A walk from a pitcher sucks it guarantees that the hitter reaches first, but if they make them swing you have a 50-50. That is what young players do not understand and way to many coaches fail to teach is that it matters more about throwing strikes that how hard you throw. I will still take BA every time since it is a true showing of what they did with the stick and Jeff had a horrible year after 2.5 good years of hitting and before this year he was money with RISP especially with 2 outs. You have found one stat that you love and that Jeff does not add up too and you have stuck with it...great but you are being closed minded and are not seeing the entire picture which is why they keep an entire book of stats they all count.

I will say I truly believe Jeff will never live up to your avg. OBP but that does not make him a bad player. Jeff is a free swinger and he is what he is. The team knew this and are fine with it as long as he does not repeat the 08 season.

As I said before and had stats to prove it. Jeff Francoeur can be just like Jermaine Dye. Do you know how many times Dye walked this year? 44. That's it. Francoeur had 42 walks in 2007 when he had a .293 BA. Walks are overrated because it takes 4 walks to score a run when he bases are emtpy. Yet 1 swing of the bat can produce a homerun. As said before. If we had Adam Dunn in LF and Hunter Pence in CF for example than Francoeur's struggles are less evident. I'm not saying there not there but they wouldn't show up as much.

You are just expecting way too much from Francoeur. You are expecting him to be something he is never gonna be but the Braves organization would gladly take .275 BA, 25 HR, 95 RBI from him every year. That is a solid season.

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well it is a good thing that many disagree with this or they would put up their OBP instead of their avg when they come to the plate.

There is a reason OBP has been added in recent years.

I will still take BA every time since it is a true showing of what they did with the stick

If this were the case, Francoeur had a better year than Dunn since he had three points higher on his average. You don't really believe that, do you?

and Jeff had a horrible year after 2.5 good years of hitting and before this year he was money with RISP especially with 2 outs. You have found one stat that you love

Well, Bill James did. I can't take the credit for it.

.great but you are being closed minded and are not seeing the entire picture which is why they keep an entire book of stats they all count.

To the contrary, I am pointed out that when Francoeur went up to the plate, he failed more than any other hitter in the league save for Michael Bourn. It's not complicated in the least. He was the second easiest out in the NL and it's far from the one-off scenario some have tried but failed to paint it to be. Most of the months he's been in the majors, he's been sub-par at getting on base and sub-par at slugging. He's a reckless free swinger with little ability to adapt at the plate. And that most assuredly does make him a bad player.

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Let's make sure we bring this up at teh end of March.

Let's! And let's also bring up who picked for MVP in 2007, given that you're suddenly looking to be such a champion of accountability!

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