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Do Frank Wren and Bobby Cox get a pass?


Guest Gritz
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I know the injuries, particularly to our starting rotation, have been devastating for the Braves........

But should there have been a better performance from this team even with all of the injuries?

Aren't they underachieving even with the injuries?

If you believe there is some blame to be dispensed, who do you feel should get the lion's share ?

I'm interested to hear what you guys think.

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I don't think Frank Wren deserves much blame. I will say I didn't agree with the Glavine signing or with the Devine/Kotsay trade, but the Jurrjens and Infante/Ohman trades were brilliant. I do, however, think that the Braves butchered the whole Francoeur-fiasco. They waited way too long to make a move with him, then they proceeded that by bringing him back up a mere 3 days later? Stupid.

Bobby Cox deserves some blame, whether the loyalists want to admit it or not. For the second straight night, Bobby has called upon Jeff freaking Bennett to either keep the game at a tie, or to hold a 1-run lead. A blind-man can see that Jeff Bennett is probably the last person on earth you want in a close ballgame. His wildness is the last thing you want to see from a relief pitcher late in a game.

To be fair, I'm not sure what manager could consistently win with this powerless, injured team, but Bobby has not given his team the best chance to win on a regular basis.

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Whats Coxs legacy gonna be? The manger who won 14 consecutive div titles or the guy who could only crank one world series outta those 14.

To me, it will be the latter. I'm sure that opinion will vary. Since I grew up with the Braves going to the playoffs EVERY year, it's very disheartening only seeing one WS banner at Turner Field.

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Whats Cox's legacy gonna be? The manger who won 14 consecutive div titles or the guy who could only crank one world series outta those 14.

Probably more of the former than the latter........

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I'll be the first to admit something needs to happen. I thought you couldn't get no better than Bobby, but now I think it's time for a change. Bobby has been great and his presence could still have a positive effect, but I feel it's time to move forward.

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With the way the Braves have seemingly conceeded this year, it wouldn't surprise to see Bobby call it quits after this season. I know he just signed the extension, but does he really want to be the manager of a team that has no real shot at a championship anytime soon?

I say it's time to find some new blood for manager. Call up all the kids next year and let them and their manager take their lumps. They'll be better for it in the long run. I can live with bad baseball, but not when we're still relying on Julian Tavarez, Jeff Bennett, Mike Hampton, etc.

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I think Bobby's a very good, possibly even great manager, but there's only so much anyone can do with a rotation that is old and falling apart on one end, and raw and inexperienced on the other. I had high hopes for this year's squad, but when I go back and look at the evidence, I see that it was a recipe for destruction...we simply have to many "issues" with our pitching staff. We're also plagued by inconsistencies in our starting line-up...Franceour's slump hasn't neccesarily been a complete shock, as he's shown signs throughout his entire pro career of not being a consistent hitter for average. However, his numbers this year might even make Andruw blush...Texeiria never lived up to our needs or expectations. Kotsay, while a gritty hard-working player, isn't a great replacement for Andruw. Chipper is by far our best offensive weapon, but his age and injury history is definitely working against him these days. We have a lot of neccesary pieces in place, but we need more consistency...in our rotation and in our line-up.

As for Wren...I'm not overly enamored by most of his decisions thus far, but it's hard to beat the man up too much when we haven't had truly committed ownership since Ted outright owned the Braves. I think in all honesty, we're probably a season or two, possibly 3, away from becoming a consistent enough conenteder...we've got replace our aging pitchers, and continue to groom our young ones. We need a legit superstar in CF...not neccesarily someone who hits 50 HRs, but someone who you can legitmately call a cornerstone piece to build this team around. If you build a team up the middle, than we've got the catcher and the SS...now we need a CF. We need consistency in our leadoff spot, and we either need Jeff to get back to being a legit factor at the plate or we need to cut him loose and bring someone else up who will...

The problem is, with Bobby re-upping to be our manager, the team will be looking to try and load up for another immediate run at glory. This usually means overpaid veterans who are either right at their expiration date, or fast approaching it...and since we don't have a Yankee-esque budget, this means we'll have to continue to trade away our minor league prospects...not neccesarily the direction we need to move towards... :blink: :ph34r:

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I have been very, very happy with what Wren has done.

Kotsay was an extremely pleasant surprise, although his health hasn't been perfect. But when the trade was made, it was assumed that if he was injured, Schafer would step up.

Renteria for Jurrjens was brilliant, and to think we got a top-prospect in Gorkys as well is unbelievable. And getting Ohman/Infante for Ascanio as another A++ move.

(The Teixeira for Kotchman/Marek deal is still debatable, but he didn't have much to work with, in terms of such a limited trade market)

We had a stocked bullpen and had several options at CF to replace Andruw. Matt Diaz was supposed to step-up in LF.

And here is an interesting stat: in 2007, Hudson, Smoltz, and Glavine each represented 3 of the top 5 NL pitchers for number of quality starts. That is incredible. Had all three stayed healthy, and Jurrjens pitched as well as he has, we would have had one of the top rotations in all of baseball. None of that can be blamed on Wren, he set us up for a World Series win.

As for Bobby, I am a huge fan, and I think he is one of the greatest managers of all time. But how are we supposed to rebuild when our manager isn't going to be around once the rebuilding is finished? The only reason I would want to replace Bobby is to truly turn a page in the Braves book.

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I think Bobby's a very good, possibly even great manager, but there's only so much anyone can do with a rotation that is old and falling apart on one end, and raw and inexperienced on the other. I had high hopes for this year's squad, but when I go back and look at the evidence, I see that it was a recipe for destruction...we simply have to many "issues" with our pitching staff. We're also plagued by inconsistencies in our starting line-up...Franceour's slump hasn't neccesarily been a complete shock, as he's shown signs throughout his entire pro career of not being a consistent hitter for average. However, his numbers this year might even make Andruw blush...Texeiria never lived up to our needs or expectations. Kotsay, while a gritty hard-working player, isn't a great replacement for Andruw. Chipper is by far our best offensive weapon, but his age and injury history is definitely working against him these days. We have a lot of neccesary pieces in place, but we need more consistency...in our rotation and in our line-up.

As for Wren...I'm not overly enamored by most of his decisions thus far, but it's hard to beat the man up too much when we haven't had truly committed ownership since Ted outright owned the Braves. I think in all honesty, we're probably a season or two, possibly 3, away from becoming a consistent enough conenteder...we've got replace our aging pitchers, and continue to groom our young ones. We need a legit superstar in CF...not neccesarily someone who hits 50 HRs, but someone who you can legitmately call a cornerstone piece to build this team around. If you build a team up the middle, than we've got the catcher and the SS...now we need a CF. We need consistency in our leadoff spot, and we either need Jeff to get back to being a legit factor at the plate or we need to cut him loose and bring someone else up who will...

The problem is, with Bobby re-upping to be our manager, the team will be looking to try and load up for another immediate run at glory. This usually means overpaid veterans who are either right at their expiration date, or fast approaching it...and since we don't have a Yankee-esque budget, this means we'll have to continue to trade away our minor league prospects...not neccesarily the direction we need to move towards... :blink: :ph34r:

We have a great CF prospect in the minors by the name of Gorkys Hernandez, and a possible September call up in Schafer who might very well could also turn out to be that guy. As for a legit superstar in Center field..where does that come from? What team besides the Angels and maybe the Mets have a "superstar" at that position? The Rays? No..Boston? **** no..Chicago? Jim Edmonds..You sound like a guy spoiled by Andruw Jones the last few years. What this team needs are consistent hitters. Ones who can drive in runs, work counts, and most importantly..bunt. There is not a single regular outside of Blanco that can put a bunt down, which is downright pathetic. ****, even most of our pitchers can't do it with regularity.

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Good post Ton80. Wren was dealt an old freakin team. I think we'll be getting much younger over these next couple years- we have to almost by definition. We have a rich farm system, so with a few moves and young pitching, we could be back on the rise. There are cycles, and we're just at a trough.

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We have a great CF prospect in the minors by the name of Gorkys Hernandez, and a possible September call up in Schafer who might very well could also turn out to be that guy. As for a legit superstar in Center field..where does that come from? What team besides the Angels and maybe the Mets have a "superstar" at that position? The Rays? No..Boston? **** no..Chicago? Jim Edmonds..You sound like a guy spoiled by Andruw Jones the last few years. What this team needs are consistent hitters. Ones who can drive in runs, work counts, and most importantly..bunt. There is not a single regular outside of Blanco that can put a bunt down, which is downright pathetic. ****, even most of our pitchers can't do it with regularity.

Haven't been spoiled...but there are quite a few teams that have legit cornerstone pieces in CF...maybe the word "superstar" threw you, but the rest of what I typed should've made it clear. Kotsay isn't a cornerstone piece. At this point, he's a rental player cruising towards retirement. And even then, he's not a guy who's going to give us bankable numbers for years to come. CF is a foundation piece in any rebuilding project in baseball...we don't have that guy yet...we very well might next season...or the season after that, depending on how our prospects shake out, and who's left after we get through trading for more "Gotta make a run right now" guys... :blink:

Good post Ton80. Wren was dealt an old freakin team. I think we'll be getting much younger over these next couple years- we have to almost by definition. We have a rich farm system, so with a few moves and young pitching, we could be back on the rise. There are cycles, and we're just at a trough.

Not sure our farm system is as rich as it once was...hopefully it still is...and will remain so...but I'm a bit worried... :ph34r:

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Haven't been spoiled...but there are quite a few teams that have legit cornerstone pieces in CF...maybe the word "superstar" threw you, but the rest of what I typed should've made it clear. Kotsay isn't a cornerstone piece. At this point, he's a rental player cruising towards retirement. And even then, he's not a guy who's going to give us bankable numbers for years to come. CF is a foundation piece in any rebuilding project in baseball...we don't have that guy yet...we very well might next season...or the season after that, depending on how our prospects shake out, and who's left after we get through trading for more "Gotta make a run right now" guys... :blink:

Not sure our farm system is as rich as it once was...hopefully it still is...and will remain so...but I'm a bit worried... :ph34r:

Sorry, I should have been more clear in what I said. How many contending teams outside of the Mets and Angels have superstars in CF? So Jim Edmonds was that foundation piece in the Cubs rebuilding? Or Felix Pie for that matter? BJ Upton, who is FAR from a "cornerstone" was part of that rebuilding in Tampa? How about Mike Cameron for the Brewers? I'm sorry, but you don't need a cornerstone piece in CF to successfully rebuild. You want to know what the brought those teams from rebuilding to contending? Pitching. There is no other answer when moving from a bad, or decent team, to a WS contender. Pitching is, has been, and always will be the deciding factor in any teams success. And I don't get where you think we're trading more prospects for a quick run. Where has Wren done that? In fact, he's done the exact opposite. What this team needs right now, is a power hitting, right-handed bat (a good one), a top-tier pitcher, and another mid-tier starter. We have enough young guys in the system like Hanson, Rohrbough, Heyward, Freeman, Hernandez (both of them), Marek, etc to make a very quick comeback.

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I have been very, very happy with what Wren has done.

Kotsay was an extremely pleasant surprise, although his health hasn't been perfect. But when the trade was made, it was assumed that if he was injured, Schafer would step up.

Renteria for Jurrjens was brilliant, and to think we got a top-prospect in Gorkys as well is unbelievable. And getting Ohman/Infante for Ascanio as another A++ move.

(The Teixeira for Kotchman/Marek deal is still debatable, but he didn't have much to work with, in terms of such a limited trade market)

We had a stocked bullpen and had several options at CF to replace Andruw. Matt Diaz was supposed to step-up in LF.

And here is an interesting stat: in 2007, Hudson, Smoltz, and Glavine each represented 3 of the top 5 NL pitchers for number of quality starts. That is incredible. Had all three stayed healthy, and Jurrjens pitched as well as he has, we would have had one of the top rotations in all of baseball. None of that can be blamed on Wren, he set us up for a World Series win.

As for Bobby, I am a huge fan, and I think he is one of the greatest managers of all time. But how are we supposed to rebuild when our manager isn't going to be around once the rebuilding is finished? The only reason I would want to replace Bobby is to truly turn a page in the Braves book.

You couldn't have put it any better.

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You couldn't have put it any better.

I would love to see Bobby take a position with the Braves, maybe as a consultant. He clearly is one of the best baseball minds in the game, and has shown he can manage a team better than anyone. If I were a future manager in the MLB, Bobby would be at the top of my list to emulate my game after.

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I would love to see Bobby take a position with the Braves, maybe as a consultant. He clearly is one of the best baseball minds in the game, and has shown he can manage a team better than anyone. If I were a future manager in the MLB, Bobby would be at the top of my list to emulate my game after.

Same here. He's not perfect by any means, but it's hard to get better than him. It is time for him to move on, but people can't forget what he's done with and for this club over the last 22 years.

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Sorry, I should have been more clear in what I said. How many contending teams outside of the Mets and Angels have superstars in CF? So Jim Edmonds was that foundation piece in the Cubs rebuilding? Or Felix Pie for that matter? BJ Upton, who is FAR from a "cornerstone" was part of that rebuilding in Tampa? How about Mike Cameron for the Brewers? I'm sorry, but you don't need a cornerstone piece in CF to successfully rebuild. You want to know what the brought those teams from rebuilding to contending? Pitching. There is no other answer when moving from a bad, or decent team, to a WS contender. Pitching is, has been, and always will be the deciding factor in any teams success. And I don't get where you think we're trading more prospects for a quick run. Where has Wren done that? In fact, he's done the exact opposite. What this team needs right now, is a power hitting, right-handed bat (a good one), a top-tier pitcher, and another mid-tier starter. We have enough young guys in the system like Hanson, Rohrbough, Heyward, Freeman, Hernandez (both of them), Marek, etc to make a very quick comeback.

See, that's where it gets a bit confusing when discussing the idea of cornerstone pieces...Edmonds was most definitely a cornerstone piece in St. Louis, and though he's no longer the same caliber player now, as he was then, he brings a great deal of leadership to the Cubs. He has clout...he's been there, done that, and won a championship. He's earned respect...so no, he's not someone you can build a franchise around, but he is someone that can mentor and lead by words and example, on a team with a lot of young talent. The Cubs have a cornerstone CF in their farm system, that may get the opportunity to work with Edmonds someday soon, I believe his name is Tyler Colvin...So Edmonds is more ore less a transitional player, so you won't build a team around him, however, the guys that you are building the team around, can gain quite a bit from his leadership. Mike Cameron, throughout his career has proven he's a **** good player. While it's true he may not be 5 tool HOF player, nearly everywhere that he's been, he's proven that he'll come up big when called upon. He was most definitely a cornerstone piece with the Mets and the Mariners back in his prime...and at one time in his career was considered one of the best CFs in baseball. What he's currently doing for the Brewers is providing good power and good leadership. He's no longer someone you build a team around, but like Edmonds, he's been that guy in his past, and brings a great deal of experience and respect to a young team, and he'll provide a nice transition to their eventual successor in CF.

Again, it's only my opinion that you build a team up the middle. You have to have to be very good up the middle, C, SS, and CF. IMO, I don't think anyone's looking at Kotsay's 6 HRs and 37 RBIs and saying that he's leading this Braves' team by example. He's a solid role player, and has been one his entire career. However, at no point has he ever been The Man either on his team or at his position in the league. He's always been one of those hard working guys that you like to have on the team, but would replace in a instant if you could get a legit power hitting CF, or a guy that could give you a great OBP from the leadoff spot. Kotsay is a Rudy...he's solid, but not great...or even very good. ;)

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