Russia Says Response to U.S. Missile Shield Deal With Poland Will Go Beyond Diplomacy

[Statick]

Sounds like it's gonna be WWIII up in this beyotch....

Russia Says Response to U.S. Missile Shield Deal With Poland Will Go Beyond Diplomacy

Wednesday, August 20, 2008

August 20: Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Polish President Lech Kaczynski shake hands after a meeting in Warsaw, Poland.

MOSCOW — Developing Story: Russia says its response to U.S. missile shield development will go beyond diplomacy. Russia's Foreign Ministry says the U.S. plan is part of an "extremely dangerous bundle" of military projects.

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Sounds as if the war in Iraq and Afghanistan is going to end sooner than expected.

[rugger8]

Putin is a scary dude. A missile defense shield is a defensive program. I really don't see where Russia is coming from here. We really need to be on alert... and I need to start jogging in case I suddenly feel the need to enlist.

[DefenseWinzCliche]

Putin is a scary dude. A missile defense shield is a defensive program. I really don't see where Russia is coming from here. We really need to be on alert... and I need to start jogging in case I suddenly feel the need to enlist.

You dont understand why a country like Russia wouldnt want us putting missile launching installations in their backyard?

Hmm.... What about this context. Do you think we would be OK with Russia installing military bases in Mexico that were used to launch missiles?

[Statick]

Putin is a scary dude. A missile defense shield is a defensive program. I really don't see where Russia is coming from here. We really need to be on alert... and I need to start jogging in case I suddenly feel the need to enlist.

I highly doubt that Russians attack us. I also expect to see an eventual return to some aspects of the Cold War: Russia making deals with countries hostile to America (like Afghanistan, Iran, Venezuela, etc), an increase in spying and making trouble for American allies, like Georgia, Poland, etc.

The rhetoric will rachet up a few more notches in order to feel out the new guys (McCain or Obama), just to see if they have the balls to do something about it.

[Statick]

You dont understand why a country like Russia wouldnt want us putting missile launching installations in their backyard?

Hmm.... What about this context. Do you think we would be OK with Russia installing military bases in Mexico that were used to launch missiles?

I think I can understand why Putin is taking this action. The formation of the Soviet Union came to be due to wanting to create a buffer zone between itself and potential enemies. No more Soviet Union...thus, no more buffer. Plus, they already have recurring problems with the Ukraine and Georgia and them making allies with us is the icing on the cake.

[Porkins]

You dont understand why a country like Russia wouldnt want us putting missile launching installations in their backyard?

Hmm.... What about this context. Do you think we would be OK with Russia installing military bases in Mexico that were used to launch missiles?

No joke there. Smacks a bit of the Cuban Missle Crisis, doesn't it? Foreign power setting up missile installations a few hundred miles off your border...hmmm.

[Andrews_31]

All the Russians are going to do is threaten to cut off the natural gas supply to Europe! The Europeans will cave in! Russia knows that it has the Europeans nuts in a death grip!

[pencilpusher. just because]

No joke there. Smacks a bit of the Cuban Missle Crisis, doesn't it? Foreign power setting up missile installations a few hundred miles off your border...hmmm.

Yes and that is what irritates me to no end about this admin. Going around telling the rest of the world they cannot have nukes and getting uptight when someone tests weapons. And yet think the world is supposed to whistle while we actually set up missiles in their back yard. Get real.

If I were Russia I would surely make the same deal with Cuba for "defense" missiles.

[kicker23]

No joke there. Smacks a bit of the Cuban Missle Crisis, doesn't it? Foreign power setting up missile installations a few hundred miles off your border...hmmm.

Setting up a nuclear launch pad 90 miles away and setting up a missile defense field 400 miles and a full country removed are not even in the same boat.

I can certainly understand why Russia is pissed though. It's the same reason why we got pissed when North Korea obtained nukes. It threatens our dominance.

[pencilpusher. just because]

Setting up a nuclear launch pad 90 miles away and setting up a missile defense field 400 miles and a full country removed are not even in the same boat.

I can certainly understand why Russia is pissed though. It's the same reason why we got pissed when North Korea obtained nukes. It threatens our dominance.

SHOULD Russia trust the US that it is only for defense?

[kicker23]

SHOULD Russia trust the US that it is only for defense?

No. Russia should inspect the site just like the US would.

[Andrews_31]

SHOULD Russia trust the US that it is only for defense?

In a nutshell, YES. The Patriot is an air-to-air missle system anyway, so the surface-to-surface threat is not there! Now, if we were trying to put Pershing IIs in Poland, then they should worry! The Russians are mad because most of the old Warsaw Pact is either in NATO or is applying for membership. All that hot air and roughing up Georgia, I think, is meant to scare the Ukrainians!!!

[XLDenali]

I highly doubt that Russians attack us. I also expect to see an eventual return to some aspects of the Cold War: Russia making deals with countries hostile to America (like Afghanistan, Iran, Venezuela, etc), an increase in spying and making trouble for American allies, like Georgia, Poland, etc.

The rhetoric will rachet up a few more notches in order to feel out the new guys (McCain or Obama), just to see if they have the balls to do something about it.

no doubt. Russia wants its superpower status back, and this time they're smart enough to realize communism doesn't work. If Putin keeps pulling the strings and their economy continues growing so rapidly, they could end up being a much bigger threat than the USSR ever was.

on the other hand, for the forseeable future, i'd say Russia wants NO PART of the US as far as a "hot" conflict. IMO the threats to Poland are mostly rhetoric to appease rightwing Russians.

[Porkins]

Setting up a nuclear launch pad 90 miles away and setting up a missile defense field 400 miles and a full country removed are not even in the same boat.

I can certainly understand why Russia is pissed though. It's the same reason why we got pissed when North Korea obtained nukes. It threatens our dominance.

Actually, it's probably more similar than you give it credit for. How hard would it be for the US to swap out a couple of warheads? How hard would it be to redirect those missiles to strategic points within Russia. You have to come at it from their perspective. Sure, it sounds great to us, but that doesn't mean they have to believe we only have altruistic intentions.

[XLDenali]

In a nutshell, YES. The Patriot is an air-to-air missle system anyway, so the surface-to-surface threat is not there! Now, if we were trying to put Pershing IIs in Poland, then they should worry! The Russians are mad because most of the old Warsaw Pact is either in NATO or is applying for membership. All that hot air and roughing up Georgia, I think, is meant to scare the Ukrainians!!!

but why would they trust us that missile interception is the only goal?

and the Patriot is a ground-launched interceptor missile, btw.

[rugger8]

You dont understand why a country like Russia wouldnt want us putting missile launching installations in their backyard?

Hmm.... What about this context. Do you think we would be OK with Russia installing military bases in Mexico that were used to launch missiles?

Well, no, but that's not close to what we are doing with Poland. They have a right to have a national defense, and there are only a few countries that produce military grade weapons. We are one of them. If Russia had some kind of armaments that Mexico could benefit from, and made an agreement to purchase them from Russia, then I couldn't possibly object.

What's happening is that Russia (Putin, really) feels like it should be treated with the same fear that existed when it was the Soviet Union, and they feel it is demeaning that that is no longer the case. Putin is making a power grab much like Hitler (I'm not trying to make a parallel to the Holocaust- but the consolidation of power is VERY similar, and is the best historical comparison that I know of) did in Germany pre-WWII. I also believe that Russia's invasion of Georgia and threats to Ukraine are a lot like Germany's treatment of Austria and Poland in the late 1930's.

I really believe that if you don't take Russia seriously, then you are ignoring history.

[st4ngeI2]

russia is like that little guy in the neighborhood who talks a bunch of crap - then gets owned when someone with real power steps up

[octoslash]

Does anyone out there understand the difference between missile systems and MISSILE DEFENSE SYSTEMS?

Apparently the Ruskies don't.

[Andrews_31]

and the Patriot is a ground-launched interceptor missile, btw.

I was tying fast and typed air-to-air instead of surface-to-air! I know missles like the back of my hand, and unless they have improved the fire control, and to a lesser extent the Patriot missle itself (and I'm not talking Desert Storm here), then blasting incoming warheads and decoys out of the sky with ANY accuracy using the Patriot is a gimme. We'd be better off using the Sprint and Spartan system (joking!!!).

[Herr Beast]

no doubt. Russia wants its superpower status back, and this time they're smart enough to realize communism doesn't work. If Putin keeps pulling the strings and their economy continues growing so rapidly, they could end up being a much bigger threat than the USSR ever was.

on the other hand, for the forseeable future, i'd say Russia wants NO PART of the US as far as a "hot" conflict. IMO the threats to Poland are mostly rhetoric to appease rightwing Russians.

Well said. Like China, Russia realized that they needed to adapt in order to become a major player again. Russia is in the unique position to own 1/4 of the worlds land mass and Russia plans to use it. With two econonmic super powers as neighbours (EU and China), it is in the perfect position to distribute its ressources to the price they like. What the US is trying to do is cutting of their distribution channels, i.e. countries like Georgia, Poland etc... the US can´t do anything about Russia´s endless ressources though

I have mixed feelings about this. As a European, I am not entirely happy to be dependend on Russian oil and gas. On the other hand, I hate how the US is interferring in Eastern Europe on their own because --- no offense --- the US pretty much f##ks everything up these days. The situation is becomign pretty unpredictable and even Russia is not 100% trustworthy, they are pretty predictable in what they are doing. That might sound strange for the average American when they look at the conflict in Georgia but anyone who cared for it, knew what would happen

[XLDenali]

Well, no, but that's not close to what we are doing with Poland. They have a right to have a national defense, and there are only a few countries that produce military grade weapons. We are one of them. If Russia had some kind of armaments that Mexico could benefit from, and made an agreement to purchase them from Russia, then I couldn't possibly object.

What's happening is that Russia (Putin, really) feels like it should be treated with the same fear that existed when it was the Soviet Union, and they feel it is demeaning that that is no longer the case. Putin is making a power grab much like Hitler (I'm not trying to make a parallel to the Holocaust- but the consolidation of power is VERY similar, and is the best historical comparison that I know of) did in Germany pre-WWII. I also believe that Russia's invasion of Georgia and threats to Ukraine are a lot like Germany's treatment of Austria and Poland in the late 1930's.

I really believe that if you don't take Russia seriously, then you are ignoring history.

just to clarify; we're setting up a US-operated missile defense base in Poland, not just selling them some missiles we invented or something.

also don't know how 1/3 of the tiny country of Georgia, from which they now claim to be withdrawing, compares to the annexation of Austria and Poland, but the analogy works in a way. it's more like Hitler seizing the Saarland and sending troops to the Rhineland BEFORE they took Austria.

[rugger8]

Well, yeah. Russia had been trying to provoke them for the last 3 or 4 years.

[XLDenali]

I was tying fast and typed air-to-air instead of surface-to-air! I know missles like the back of my hand, and unless they have improved the fire control, and to a lesser extent the Patriot missle itself (and I'm not talking Desert Storm here), then blasting incoming warheads and decoys out of the sky with ANY accuracy using the Patriot is a gimme. We'd be better off using the Sprint and Spartan system (joking!!!).

supposedly the new upgrades (called Patriot-3 i think) are really much-improved on both ends. i hope so.

i own raytheon stock, and get little fake-azz "business updates" through my online broker. they just got a fat contract to continue the upgrades.

[rugger8]

just to clarify; we're setting up a US-operated missile defense base in Poland, not just selling them some missiles we invented or something.

also don't know how 1/3 of the tiny country of Georgia, from which they now claim to be withdrawing, compares to the annexation of Austria and Poland, but the analogy works in a way. it's more like Hitler seizing the Saarland and sending troops to the Rhineland BEFORE they took Austria.

I'm not entirely clear about the base in Poland. I'll read up on that before commenting further.

That was a part of my analogy, but they also supported separatist parties in Austria before the full annexation, and there were skirmishes that were intended to weaken defenses before an all out invasion and to feel out the likely response from other European nations. I think that's what Russia has done, and I'm concerned about their threats to the Ukraine and Poland, and what those might mean to future military actions.

[Andrews_31]

just to clarify; we're setting up a US-operated missile defense base in Poland, not just selling them some missiles we invented or something.

also don't know how 1/3 of the tiny country of Georgia, from which they now claim to be withdrawing, compares to the annexation of Austria and Poland, but the analogy works in a way. it's more like Hitler seizing the Saarland and sending troops to the Rhineland BEFORE they took Austria.

If the Ukraine and Georgia join NATO, the Russians can kiss control of the Black Sea GOODBYE! Plus, a pipeline was built through Georgia to avoid Russian territory! The Russians clearly know what they are doing when it comes to Georgia and the Ukraine. They are playing with fire when they threaten the Poles outright!!!