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Is the US a Christian County?


deathdawg
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Should it be a Christian Country?

My answer is no, no and no.

I got an email that was attacking Democrats for trying to change America from a Christian country to a non religious country. First I find it utterly hilarious that the writer was either delusional as to the the intent of the framers or was actually trying to rewrite history in the minds of the less educated for political purposes.

I often hear and see bumper stickers saying we need to "return to the Christian principles on which America was founded". This is utter horse crap, America was NOT founded on Christian principles, yes we were founded on some basic moral principles but yet others have had to be hammered out that were not there in the foundation, like civil rights. Some basic human rights were included in the original documents, but they were left lacking and needed amending.

Many of the men responsible for building the foundation of the United States had little use for Christianity, and many were strongly opposed to it. As a matter of fact one of the planks that built our foundation was in revolt to the mandate of religion by England, and that religion was "Christianity" or at least one of it's MANY factions.

I do not think the founding fathers would be happy with the fact that today it would be nearly impossible to hold the highest federal or state office without being a "christian" of some sort. Article 6 section 3 of the constitution reads "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States." But to hear some people talk, if you're not "christian" you shouldn't be running for any office in this "christian" country. We have had discussions before about this, and the consensus of the boards atheists was the a professing atheist could not hold a high elected office in the current state of our union.

Although the Declaration of Independence uses references to a "creator", the constitution itself purposely does not include the word "God" anywhere. Also I believe the Declaration of Independence gives us an important insight into the intent of the Framers. Thomas Jefferson wrote that the power of the government is derived from the governed, the PEOPLE. Up until that time, it was proclaimed that kings ruled counties by the authority of God. The Declaration was a RADICAL departure from the idea of divine authority.

More evidence that the founding fathers were not set on creating a "christian" nation is found in the treaty with Tripoli that states "As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion".

As far as we know NONE of the founding fathers were ATHEIST, but most were DEISTS, they believed that the universe was created by a creator, but that he does not concern himself with the daily lives of humans, and does not directly communicate with humans, either by revelation or by sacred books. Deists denied the divinity of Jesus. Even though a few of the founding fathers WERE "Christian" they were more open to free thought than the extremists of the christian right today.

The framers were students of the enlightenment age. In 1831 there were ministers that complained that no president up to that date had been a Christian. Pastor Bird Wilson of Albany, New York, an Episcopalian minister protested that no president to date had been a professing christian, at least more than Unitarian. The early years of our nations' development was more of enlightened reason, tolerance, and free thought, the founding fathers would roll over in their graves if they knew that christian extremists had had their way with this country the last few years.

Imagine if the first Continental Congress had truly been bible thumpers? "For rebellion as is the sin of witchcraft." 1 Samuel, 15:23 | Would there have been a United States? Would there have been a revolution? Would there have been a rebellion against England and it's religious mandate? ... probably not.

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silentbob1272 (7/18/2008)
deathdawg,

Well formulated, well researched, and well reasoned...........who wrote it for you??

While I don't agree with all of your conclusions (shocking), good post none the less.

It is strange though that you twice proved yourself unable to spell "Country" in the thread title, but finally got it right in the article....cut and paste job???? :satisfied:

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Being Christian means to follow Christ, right?

I don't remember Jesus saying anything about Killing the natives, taking all the land and using Slaves to build it up for you.

Nor do I remember Jesus telling people to seek political office and cheat, lie ,kill and steal while claiming to be his followers.

So that would be a NO.

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pencilpusher (7/18/2008)
Being Christian means to follow Christ, right?

I don't remember Jesus saying anything about Killing the natives, taking all the land and using Slaves to build it up for you.

Nor do I remember Jesus telling people to seek political office and cheat, lie ,kill and steal while claiming to be his followers.

So that would be a NO.

Since Jesus also said to obey earthly authorities, one could actually make a relatively credible argument that the American Revolution was anti-Christian.

I don't happen to agree 100% with that argument, but it is not out of the bounds of proper theology.

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JDaveG (7/18/2008)
pencilpusher (7/18/2008)
Being Christian means to follow Christ, right?

I don't remember Jesus saying anything about Killing the natives, taking all the land and using Slaves to build it up for you.

Nor do I remember Jesus telling people to seek political office and cheat, lie ,kill and steal while claiming to be his followers.

So that would be a NO.

Since Jesus also said to obey earthly authorities, one could actually make a relatively credible argument that the American Revolution was anti-Christian.

I don't happen to agree 100% with that argument, but it is not out of the bounds of proper theology.

I agree with that to a point, just as you do. But then the argument would become " so we were supposed to obey Hitler?"

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the biggest problem with most claiming to be christian, is their "do what i say not do what i do attitude". for supossidly have a "freedom of religion" in this country it is more of a "freedom to chose a denomination of christianity". anyone who is not in some form christianity is looked down upon or looked at differently.

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I really never saw how christianity was ever compatible with government. Sure, its important for christians to protect their right to religion through government (something I really dont feel has ever been threatened), but what I seem to see much more of is christians trying to force others to adhere to their beliefs.

Thats not really the teachings of Jesus, Jesus never told people to go force anyone else to either follow him or adhere to his value system. He advocated worrying about living your life well to set an example and then spreading his word in good will and letting people come to their own conclusions.

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pencilpusher (7/18/2008)
I agree with that to a point, just as you do. But then the argument would become " so we were supposed to obey Hitler?"

The distinction being that the King was taxing us without representation, not killing off an entire race of innocent people.

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JDaveG (7/18/2008)
pencilpusher (7/18/2008)
I agree with that to a point, just as you do. But then the argument would become " so we were supposed to obey Hitler?"

The distinction being that the King was taxing us without representation, not killing off an entire race of innocent people.

10031424_bigfoot.jpg

View of the slain body of Chief Big Foot, Native American, Miniconjou Lakota Sioux, propped up in the snow on the Wounded Knee battleground. U. S. soldiers, civilian burial party members, and a stovepipe from an army tent show in background. (The location of the army tent is so close to the council circle, that it was most likely Big Foot's tent. It is documented that Major Samuel Whitside of the 7th Cavalry ordered a stove placed in Big Foot's tent. See the following image for an example of the tent heater in use.)

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JDaveG (7/18/2008)
pencilpusher (7/18/2008)
Being Christian means to follow Christ, right?

I don't remember Jesus saying anything about Killing the natives, taking all the land and using Slaves to build it up for you.

Nor do I remember Jesus telling people to seek political office and cheat, lie ,kill and steal while claiming to be his followers.

So that would be a NO.

Since Jesus also said to obey earthly authorities, one could actually make a relatively credible argument that the American Revolution was anti-Christian.

I don't happen to agree 100% with that argument, but it is not out of the bounds of proper theology.

So it was ok for Rudolph Hoss to incinerate, starve, torture and gas the Jews at Auschwitz because Hitler said it was ok?

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JDaveG (7/18/2008)
pencilpusher (7/18/2008)
I agree with that to a point, just as you do. But then the argument would become " so we were supposed to obey Hitler?"

The distinction being that the King was taxing us without representation, not killing off an entire race of innocent people.

So I guess the Bible is a bit vague.

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Are we as a nation operating as a Christian theocracy, based directly on Biblical edicts? No. Are we a Christian nation culturally and demographically? Yes. That doesn't mean the exclusion of others, just that culture plays a role in society and at times clashes with individual freedoms, which the rule of law resolves, but it also provides boundaries and guidance where government powers are restrained.

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BigSlick (7/18/2008)
So it was ok for Rudolph Hoss to incinerate, starve,torture and gas the Jews at Auschwitz because Hitler said it was ok?

Not any more than it is okay for you to slanderously misread my argument because you're too lazy to read the rest of this thread :rolleyes:

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FalconFansince80 (7/18/2008)
JDaveG (7/18/2008)

The distinction being that the King was taxing us without representation, not killing off an entire race of innocent people.

10031424_bigfoot.jpg

View of the slain body of Chief Big Foot, Native American, Miniconjou Lakota Sioux, propped up in the snow on the Wounded Knee battleground. U. S. soldiers, civilian burial party members, and a stovepipe from an army tent show in background. (The location of the army tent is so close to the council circle, that it was most likely Big Foot's tent. It is documented that Major Samuel Whitside of the 7th Cavalry ordered a stove placed in Big Foot's tent. See the following image for an example of the tent heater in use.)

I'm not sure I understand your point.......

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silentbob1272 (7/18/2008)
deathdawg,

Well formulated, well researched, and well reasoned...........who wrote it for you??

While I don't agree with all of your conclusions (shocking), good post none the less.

LOL, if you paid attention, sometimes I actually spend more than 30 seconds writing quick snide comments. This was a response to jjjjoe or whatever and his name is, and his programmed antics, as well as an email I received. I thought a tldr post was in order to dispel some inaccuracies in many of the comments I have been seeing the past few days. I also appreciate your unsubtle attack on my intelligence, it was crudely amazing... or did I catch you off guard? ;) Here is the drivel that inspired my post, I'm sure you will have more in common with it than facts and my opinion.

>> As I was listening to a news program last night, I watched in horror

>> as Barack Obama made the statement with pride. . .'we are no longer a

>> Christian nation; we are now a nation of Christians, Jews, Muslims,

>> Buddhists, . . . As with so many other statements I've heard him (and

>> his wife) make, I never thought I'd see the day that I'd hear

>> something like that from a presidential candidate in this nation. To

>> think our forefathers fought and died for the right for our nation to

>> be a Christian nation--and to have this man say with pride that we are

>>

>> no longer that. How far this nation has come from what our founding

> > fathers intended it to be.

>>

>> I hope that each of you will do what I'm doing now--send your

>> concerns, written simply and sincerely, to the Christians on your

>> email list. With God's help, and He is still in control of this

>> nation and all else, we can show this man and the world in November

>> that we are, indeed, still a Christian nation!

>>

>> Please pray for our nation!

You can deny that there is a hidden agenda in your party to rewrite history in the minds of it's sheep, but I am not that naive. :)

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silentbob1272 (7/18/2008)
silentbob1272 (7/18/2008)
deathdawg,

Well formulated, well researched, and well reasoned...........who wrote it for you??

While I don't agree with all of your conclusions (shocking), good post none the less.

It is strange though that you twice proved yourself unable to spell "Country" in the thread title, but finally got it right in the article....cut and paste job???? :satisfied:

touche'

You finally caught me in a typo :P But now I owe you two intelligence insults and believe me I AM keeping count :P eheh

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JDaveG (7/18/2008)
FalconFansince80 (7/18/2008)
JDaveG (7/18/2008)

The distinction being that the King was taxing us without representation, not killing off an entire race of innocent people.

10031424_bigfoot.jpg

View of the slain body of Chief Big Foot, Native American, Miniconjou Lakota Sioux, propped up in the snow on the Wounded Knee battleground. U. S. soldiers, civilian burial party members, and a stovepipe from an army tent show in background. (The location of the army tent is so close to the council circle, that it was most likely Big Foot's tent. It is documented that Major Samuel Whitside of the 7th Cavalry ordered a stove placed in Big Foot's tent. See the following image for an example of the tent heater in use.)

I'm not sure I understand your point.......

United States of America

Authors such as the Holocaust expert David Cesarani have argued that the government and policies of the United States of America against certain indigenous peoples constituted genocide. David Cesarani states that "in terms of the sheer numbers killed, the Native American Genocide exceeds that of the Holocaust".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history

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capologist (7/18/2008)
I think there's a huge difference between being a "Christian country" and being founded on Christian principles and ideals but that's just me...

But the truth is that christians took part with the founding fathers, but MOST of the founding fathers were NOT "christian". John Adams, a deist and very outspoken at times against the christian religion.

"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?"-John Adams

He was not a bible believer, if he had had access to the information we have today I am sure he probably would not have been a deist, but would have chosen atheism or humanism instead.

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lax32 (7/18/2008)
I really never saw how christianity was ever compatible with government. Sure, its important for christians to protect their right to religion through government (something I really dont feel has ever been threatened), but what I seem to see much more of is christians trying to force others to adhere to their beliefs.

Thats not really the teachings of Jesus, Jesus never told people to go force anyone else to either follow him or adhere to his value system. He advocated worrying about living your life well to set an example and then spreading his word in good will and letting people come to their own conclusions.

Exactly, the whole fear mongering campaign thingy with the gay and abortion issues and using them as wedges to advance an agenda to turn a pluralistic and inclusive political system (as designed by the framers) into an exclusively "christian" system... It erks my shiznit.

It's fine for them to believe that gays shouldn't marry, but don't legislate that based on a religious principal that is inherent to your religion. Actually, there are "christians" that are for gay marriage, and pro-choice, but what do the majority say about them? Oh, well they aren't "REAL" christians.

I think it's time to get a majority to stand up to the so called "christian right" and let them know they are WRONG. I want them to retain their religious freedom, but I also want them to adhere to the separation of church and state. I think it would do many of them good to read the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, by one of those founding fathers they like to talk about... Maybe it would open enough eyes to get us headed back in the right direction, at least on that particular front.

That would be some "CHANGE I CAN BELIEVE IN". ;)

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FalconFansince80 (7/18/2008)
JDaveG (7/18/2008)

I'm not sure I understand your point.......

United States of America

Authors such as the Holocaust expert David Cesarani have argued that the government and policies of the United States of America against certain indigenous peoples constituted genocide. David Cesarani states that "in terms of the sheer numbers killed, the Native American Genocide exceeds that of the Holocaust".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history

Still not following you.

Are you suggesting the King killed off the Native Americans, and therefore the American Revolution was justified after all to stop the genocide wrought by the English King?

Did you even read what I wrote before you quoted me and posted your "response?"

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