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Albert vs. Baker


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bart (5/9/2008)
muskokas finest (5/8/2008)
SteelerDawg6481 (5/8/2008)
muskokas finest (5/8/2008)
Even at Guard, Albert still had a first round grade, Baker didn't. Albert played OG cause Virginia already had a good LT
And the reason bnaker didn't have a 1st round grade is b/c he was hurt last year. If he had come out after his Junior year, he'd of been the second OT off the board after Joe Thomas.

Some of you guys need to think before you type.

You need to comprehend before you reply. If Baker doesn't have a first round grade the reason really doesn't matter, does it, he still was a reach. If you miss part of the season with nagging injuries, then the question arises "is he tough enough?" Baker isn't an elite run or pass blocker, just a solid college player. Albert will be a solid pro.

Why is Baker a reach? TD stated clearly that the draft would be needs-based. We needed a LT and he moved to get the best, in their estimation, available. Albert will be a solid pro? Really? You can fill a stadium with players who moved up draft boards based on impressive pre-draft workouts then went on to obscurity and mediocrity in the pros. He has potential but hardly a sure thing.

Having a "needs based" draft is one thing, but going that far off your board is quite another.

All things being equal, you take the player in a position of need.

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dont know if this has been posted already-

Sam Baker

Selected by: Atlanta Falcons

Round: 1

Pick (Overall): 21(21)

OT | (6'4", 309, 5.299) | USC

Scouts Grade: 85

Flags: (D: DURABILITY) Player that can't stay healthy

View by: Round | Player | NCAA School | Position | NFL Team | Flag | All Ranked Players | NFL Draft History

You are signed into Insider and have access to the exclusive draft content below.

Strengths: Possesses adequate height and size-potential. Feet are his best asset. He displays very good initial quickness as a run blocker and in pass pro. Gets set quickly and stays under control. Can mirror-and-slide with elite pass rushers and rarely gets beat by speed off the edge. His hand placement is outstanding. He shows very good awareness and rarely misses an assignment. Takes good angles as a run blocker and is technically sound in that facet of the game. Also does a good job of mixing in cut blocks to keep defenders off-balance.

Weaknesses: Lacks ideal bulk. Has short arms (32.6 inches) and small hands (9.2 inches). Too much of a finesse blocker. Plays with a narrow base and would benefit from added strength in his lower-body. He's not overpowering in the run game and he will struggle at times to generate a new line of scrimmage versus bigger, stronger DE's. He works hard to sustain blocks but he doesn't show enough of a mean-streak at times. Durability is suddenly a concern following arthroscopic surgery to remove loose cartilage in his left knee prior to 2007 spring practice and lingering hamstring injury that cost him playing time as a senior.

Overall: Baker arrived at USC in 2003 and redshirted his first year. He moved from guard to offensive tackle before the 2004 season, and went on to make 39 consecutive starts at left tackle over the next three years (2004-'06). As a senior in 2007, he played 10 games (all starts). He was a first team All-America selection as a junior (2006) and a second-team selection as a senior (2007). He missed three games in his last season because of a left hamstring strain. Baker also suffered a bone chip in his left knee in 2005; played through a left knee sprain in 2006 (which required arthroscopic surgery at the end of the season); and suffered a cracked rib before the 2007 season. Son of AFL commissioner David Baker, Sam Baker enters the NFL draft as a four-year starter from one of the top programs in college football. He possesses good agility for the position and generally will get in position as a run blocker and in pass pro. However, Baker is a bit of a finesse player that lacks explosive power and does not play with consistent leverage. He also has short arms and small hands. Baker struggled to stay healthy as a senior and did not make the necessary improvements as a result. He is no longer expected to be drafted in the first round but he should be off the board by the end of Round 2.

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HailRazor (5/8/2008)
  I can't figure out something the media keeps pushing.  At 15, the Chiefs drafting an OG that they are going to try to make a LT is a brilliant move. But after there was a run on LT, the Falcons trade back up and grab a true LT, and it is a horrible reach and wasted a draft pick.

  I just don't understand the logic. Maybe someone can explain it to me.

yes, this is simple, ALBERT IS 10 TIMES BETTER THAN BAKER already, even though he has only started 2 games there, and anybody who has actually watched film of albert playing knows he is as much of a cant miss prospect as it gets, whether they make him a lt, which they most likely will, and should, or if they decide to keep him at guard.

he is much, much stronger, way quicker, has much longer arms, and if dabrickishaw wasnt playin lt at virginia when alber arrived, believe me albert would have been an all american at lt every year he played.

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aveboogie2 (5/8/2008)
HailRazor (5/8/2008)
  I can't figure out something the media keeps pushing.  At 15, the Chiefs drafting an OG that they are going to try to make a LT is a brilliant move. But after there was a run on LT, the Falcons trade back up and grab a true LT, and it is a horrible reach and wasted a draft pick.

  I just don't understand the logic. Maybe someone can explain it to me.

The only edge Baker has over Alberts was experience. Baker was coming off a season full of injuries while Albert added a new wrinkle to his game by playing LT. Albert is the bigger and better athlete who's best football is ahead of him, Baker doesn't have ideal arm length and tested poorly at his pro day. Albert shined at the combine.

If this was 2007, you'd have an argument. Present day, Albert projects to be a better LT than Baker does. I wouldn't be surprised if Baker ends up as a G, and Albert will still be the better player.

 

How about being the starting tackle for the best college team over the past couple years and all american?Pro day workouts dont win football games.Time will tell.Baker seems to be a football guy and alberts might be more of a athalete.I wouldnt be surprised if albert is a washout.

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aveboogie2 (5/9/2008)

Albert has much more potential than Baker. That's why one was a great pick, the other was a reach.

Personnel people who ignore what a player is in hopes that they fulfill their potential down the road are personnel people who wind up fired. You take the guys who might be better several years down the road every time. I'll take the ones who have outplayed them every year of their careers. My team will car-rush your team.

Albert is a maybe someday. Baker is a yes right now. Period.

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nettts (5/9/2008)

if dabrickishaw wasnt playin lt at virginia when alber arrived, believe me albert would have been an all american at lt every year he played.

Ignoring all the other nonsense you posted (as I ordinarily do), this line of thinking has already been dismissed as incorrect in this thread. Please read more carefully before posting. Virginia did not have a good option at LT after Ferguson left. They had two guys split those duties. Albert was never considered a good solution for the position. Making stuff up like this simply points out how weak your argument is.

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red2play (5/9/2008)
1989fan (5/8/2008)
itsw funny you mention Ryan. It seems some of these "experts" pikced us to take Matt Ryan, then said it was a bad pick when we did it.

the Falcons truely are the basement of the NFL in many analysts eyes for some reason. At least my other team (Browns) are this years media darlings. I mean they traded away their whole draft for top dollar players, and it is being called brilliant. I have never heard a team get praise for doing this prior to this year.

You have to read between the lines for what they say.  When they talked about Ryan, they rated him as the highest Qb but not a top three pick.  Most rated him as a mid-first rounder.

Why was baltimore trying to move up to get him then?

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HailRazor (5/8/2008)
  I can't figure out something the media keeps pushing.  At 15, the Chiefs drafting an OG that they are going to try to make a LT is a brilliant move. But after there was a run on LT, the Falcons trade back up and grab a true LT, and it is a horrible reach and wasted a draft pick.

  I just don't understand the logic. Maybe someone can explain it to me.

 

Here is the deal, it was TD's decision, not anyone elses. He made the decision based on what he had studied for a year. get over it, and don't stay up waiting for any explanation, just watch the games this season, then you will either understand or be even more confused.

dude, it wan't our call, we gots to roll with it.

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SteelerDawg6481 (5/8/2008)
Legion (5/8/2008)
SteelerDawg6481 (5/8/2008)
Legion (5/8/2008)
SteelerDawg, you are taking this way too personal.
Maybe, but I don't deal well w/ignorance.
Yeah well, ignorant or not they are entitled to hold on to it. I think he was a solid pick-up. My problem was taking Ryan 3rd overall in the first place, that is what forced the trade so heavily, but since they did pick Ryan...trading for Baker in the first was a solid move.
You're right, but I just don't take to ignorant statements well at all.

YOu can have a differing opinion, but it better be well researched and well-thought out instead of something you just pull out of your ##### like Aveboogie did.

 

When did this change to a hockey forum?

do we have hockey nuts in here too?

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HailRazor (5/8/2008)
splitstream (5/8/2008)
Then let me explain it to you. This part of your statement is simply not true: "grab a true LT, and it is a horrible reach and wasted a draft pick."

  Which part is not true?

1) "horrible reach" - I agree it was a bit of a reach but if we were to upgrade our offensive line from the draft it was necessary. Would we rather have had him in the second round - yes. Would he have been available in the second round - no.

2) "wasted a draft pick" - I look for Baker to be the cornerstone of our offensive line for the next 15 years.

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bigduke633 (5/9/2008)
aveboogie2 (5/8/2008)
HailRazor (5/8/2008)
  I can't figure out something the media keeps pushing.  At 15, the Chiefs drafting an OG that they are going to try to make a LT is a brilliant move. But after there was a run on LT, the Falcons trade back up and grab a true LT, and it is a horrible reach and wasted a draft pick.

  I just don't understand the logic. Maybe someone can explain it to me.

The only edge Baker has over Alberts was experience. Baker was coming off a season full of injuries while Albert added a new wrinkle to his game by playing LT. Albert is the bigger and better athlete who's best football is ahead of him, Baker doesn't have ideal arm length and tested poorly at his pro day. Albert shined at the combine.

If this was 2007, you'd have an argument. Present day, Albert projects to be a better LT than Baker does. I wouldn't be surprised if Baker ends up as a G, and Albert will still be the better player.

 

How about being the starting tackle for the best college team over the past couple years and all american?Pro day workouts dont win football games.Time will tell.Baker seems to be a football guy and alberts might be more of a athalete.I wouldnt be surprised if albert is a washout.

It's been acknowledged that Baker, for 3 years, was an exceptional LT in college, however, he struggled with injuries his senior year, tested poorly in the post season workouts while Albert showed to himself to be more versatile, bigger and a better athelete.

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aveboogie2 (5/9/2008)
bigduke633 (5/9/2008)
aveboogie2 (5/8/2008)
HailRazor (5/8/2008)
I can't figure out something the media keeps pushing. At 15, the Chiefs drafting an OG that they are going to try to make a LT is a brilliant move. But after there was a run on LT, the Falcons trade back up and grab a true LT, and it is a horrible reach and wasted a draft pick.

I just don't understand the logic. Maybe someone can explain it to me.

The only edge Baker has over Alberts was experience. Baker was coming off a season full of injuries while Albert added a new wrinkle to his game by playing LT. Albert is the bigger and better athlete who's best football is ahead of him, Baker doesn't have ideal arm length and tested poorly at his pro day. Albert shined at the combine.

If this was 2007, you'd have an argument. Present day, Albert projects to be a better LT than Baker does. I wouldn't be surprised if Baker ends up as a G, and Albert will still be the better player.

How about being the starting tackle for the best college team over the past couple years and all american?Pro day workouts dont win football games.Time will tell.Baker seems to be a football guy and alberts might be more of a athalete.I wouldnt be surprised if albert is a washout.

It's been acknowledged that Baker, for 3 years, was an exceptional LT in college, however, he struggled with injuries his senior year, tested poorly in the post season workouts while Albert showed to himself to be more versatile, bigger and a better athelete.

You dont see the flaw in your logic?

I mean everyone gets hurt sometimes but even tho he was hurt he played through it and only missed like 3 games his senior year. and of course he didnt do good on his pro day if hes trying to recuperate from his senior injuries so he can get healthy for the nfl.

ALbert might become a good LT but for right now hes gonna have to learn a new position and the panthers fully reached for albert and gave away a future first round pick for a guy who might not even be able to play LT in the nfl. Thats reaching, we did not.

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btheman71 (5/8/2008)
It wasn't a scout that said Baker had short arms, it was Kiper.

Find one scouting report that says Baker has short arms.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfldraft/draft/...player?id=11736

Sam Baker

atl.gifSelected by: Atlanta Falcons

Round: 1

Pick (Overall): 21(21)

OT | (6'45_8.gif", 309, 5.299) | USC

Scouts Grade: 85

Flags: (D: DURABILITY) Player that can't stay healthy

View by: Round | Player | NCAA School | Position | NFL Team | Flagin.gif | All Ranked Playersin.gif | NFL Draft History

You are signed into Insider in.gif and have access to the exclusive draft content below.

Strengths: Possesses adequate height and size-potential. Feet are his best asset. He displays very good initial quickness as a run blocker and in pass pro. Gets set quickly and stays under control. Can mirror-and-slide with elite pass rushers and rarely gets beat by speed off the edge. His hand placement is outstanding. He shows very good awareness and rarely misses an assignment. Takes good angles as a run blocker and is technically sound in that facet of the game. Also does a good job of mixing in cut blocks to keep defenders off-balance.

Weaknesses: Lacks ideal bulk. Has short arms (32.6 inches) and small hands (9.2 inches). Too much of a finesse blocker. Plays with a narrow base and would benefit from added strength in his lower-body. He's not overpowering in the run game and he will struggle at times to generate a new line of scrimmage versus bigger, stronger DE's. He works hard to sustain blocks but he doesn't show enough of a mean-streak at times. Durability is suddenly a concern following arthroscopic surgery to remove loose cartilage in his left knee prior to 2007 spring practice and lingering hamstring injury that cost him playing time as a senior.

Overall: Baker arrived at USC in 2003 and redshirted his first year. He moved from guard to offensive tackle before the 2004 season, and went on to make 39 consecutive starts at left tackle over the next three years (2004-'06). As a senior in 2007, he played 10 games (all starts). He was a first team All-America selection as a junior (2006) and a second-team selection as a senior (2007). He missed three games in his last season because of a left hamstring strain. Baker also suffered a bone chip in his left knee in 2005; played through a left knee sprain in 2006 (which required arthroscopic surgery at the end of the season); and suffered a cracked rib before the 2007 season. Son of AFL commissioner David Baker, Sam Baker enters the NFL draft as a four-year starter from one of the top programs in college football. He possesses good agility for the position and generally will get in position as a run blocker and in pass pro. However, Baker is a bit of a finesse player that lacks explosive power and does not play with consistent leverage. He also has short arms and small hands. Baker struggled to stay healthy as a senior and did not make the necessary improvements as a result. He is no longer expected to be drafted in the first round but he should be off the board by the end of Round 2.

My guess is you'll now say that Scouts Inc. aren't real enough scouts for you.

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aveboogie2 (5/9/2008)
btheman71 (5/8/2008)
It wasn't a scout that said Baker had short arms, it was Kiper.

Find one scouting report that says Baker has short arms.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfldraft/draft/...player?id=11736

Sam Baker

atl.gifSelected by: Atlanta Falcons

Round: 1

Pick (Overall): 21(21)

OT | (6'45_8.gif", 309, 5.299) | USC

Scouts Grade: 85

Flags: (D: DURABILITY) Player that can't stay healthy

View by: Round | Player | NCAA School | Position | NFL Team | Flagin.gif | All Ranked Playersin.gif | NFL Draft History

You are signed into Insider in.gif and have access to the exclusive draft content below.

Strengths: Possesses adequate height and size-potential. Feet are his best asset. He displays very good initial quickness as a run blocker and in pass pro. Gets set quickly and stays under control. Can mirror-and-slide with elite pass rushers and rarely gets beat by speed off the edge. His hand placement is outstanding. He shows very good awareness and rarely misses an assignment. Takes good angles as a run blocker and is technically sound in that facet of the game. Also does a good job of mixing in cut blocks to keep defenders off-balance.

Weaknesses: Lacks ideal bulk. Has short arms (32.6 inches) and small hands (9.2 inches). Too much of a finesse blocker. Plays with a narrow base and would benefit from added strength in his lower-body. He's not overpowering in the run game and he will struggle at times to generate a new line of scrimmage versus bigger, stronger DE's. He works hard to sustain blocks but he doesn't show enough of a mean-streak at times. Durability is suddenly a concern following arthroscopic surgery to remove loose cartilage in his left knee prior to 2007 spring practice and lingering hamstring injury that cost him playing time as a senior.

Overall: Baker arrived at USC in 2003 and redshirted his first year. He moved from guard to offensive tackle before the 2004 season, and went on to make 39 consecutive starts at left tackle over the next three years (2004-'06). As a senior in 2007, he played 10 games (all starts). He was a first team All-America selection as a junior (2006) and a second-team selection as a senior (2007). He missed three games in his last season because of a left hamstring strain. Baker also suffered a bone chip in his left knee in 2005; played through a left knee sprain in 2006 (which required arthroscopic surgery at the end of the season); and suffered a cracked rib before the 2007 season. Son of AFL commissioner David Baker, Sam Baker enters the NFL draft as a four-year starter from one of the top programs in college football. He possesses good agility for the position and generally will get in position as a run blocker and in pass pro. However, Baker is a bit of a finesse player that lacks explosive power and does not play with consistent leverage. He also has short arms and small hands. Baker struggled to stay healthy as a senior and did not make the necessary improvements as a result. He is no longer expected to be drafted in the first round but he should be off the board by the end of Round 2.

My guess is you'll now say that Scouts Inc. aren't real enough scouts for you.

Ive read many articles that stated sam baker has longer arms than jake long. Jake long has the 32 inch and sam baker has trhe 33 inch. So who knows whats right and whats wrong. A lot of miss information going around online.

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People fail to realize the amount of smoke screening and flat out lies put out about players in order to mess with their draft value.

Take the "short arms" for example. We know for a fact his arms are longer than Jake Long, but no one says that his arms are short. So ask yourself this, was SI put into a position to put out a flat out lie by one of the NFL organizations/GMs/FO or was their method of scouting just flat out bogus.

Unless you're willing to say that Jake Long cannot be a LT because of his short arms, don't say anything about Sam Baker having short arms.

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jidady (5/8/2008)
aveboogie2 (5/8/2008)

You also didn't mention the two other games, as a senior, in which Baker missed the vast majority of due to the hamstring injury.

Because I saw both of those games and what you are describing as "vast majority" I know to be less than 50%. I actually broke down one of them on the draft board. He had four pancakes in that game against Arizona. So, he did shockingly well for a guy out the "vast majority" of the game. He also was dominating Oregon right up until he re-injured the hamstring a lesser man would not have tried to play through. BTW, his blocking grade in those two games where he shouldn't have been playing was 88.5. You'd be well served to focus on the three he missed rather than the two where he battled through injuries to dominate.

Really....

http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaaf/recap?gid=200710130062

"...Already playing with a makeshift offensive line, the Trojans lost left tackle Sam Baker in the second quarter with an injured hamstring. ..."

Still sticking with the less than 50% and 4 pancakes blocks vs. Arizona?

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aveboogie2 (5/9/2008)

Still sticking with the less than 50% and 4 pancakes blocks vs. Arizona?

Yes. NFL Draft Scout has him with 6 key blocks in the game, too. See, this is what comes from watching the games rather than trying to catch up after the fact.

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muskokas finest (5/8/2008)
Even at Guard, Albert still had a first round grade, Baker didn't. Albert played OG cause Virginia already had a good LT

You are not making any sense, they are comparing the two at a position of LT, not guard.  Baker did not play guard at USC he played LT. 

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jaymadd1 (5/9/2008)
muskokas finest (5/8/2008)
Even at Guard, Albert still had a first round grade, Baker didn't. Albert played OG cause Virginia already had a good LT

You are not making any sense, they are comparing the two at a position of LT, not guard. Baker did not play guard at USC he played LT.

If you followed the entire conversation, instead of taking part of it out of context, it might make more sense

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jidady (5/9/2008)
aveboogie2 (5/9/2008)

Still sticking with the less than 50% and 4 pancakes blocks vs. Arizona?

Yes. NFL Draft Scout has him with 6 key blocks in the game, too. See, this is what comes from watching the games rather than trying to catch up after the fact.

Dude, he played less than half the game because of the injury....I can give you proof of that, where's all this info you have?

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The Falcon Ace (5/9/2008)
People fail to realize the amount of smoke screening and flat out lies put out about players in order to mess with their draft value.

Take the "short arms" for example. We know for a fact his arms are longer than Jake Long, but no one says that his arms are short. So ask yourself this, was SI put into a position to put out a flat out lie by one of the NFL organizations/GMs/FO or was their method of scouting just flat out bogus.

Unless you're willing to say that Jake Long cannot be a LT because of his short arms, don't say anything about Sam Baker having short arms.

Who cares about Jake Long, he's not a Falcon. If he struggles because of short arms, so be it. Let Dolphin fans take up that argument. The Falcons overpaid for a third tier LT/future G.

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LOL........those that believe the media about Sam Baker aren't very well informed.Baker started 39 GAMES AT USC........**** if had started at Georgia, he would be the steal of the CENTURY,TD has forgot more about grading players than the pencil neck mediaKYPERS will ever know!!

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