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We have compared Ryan to the second tier of QB's.


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Are Flacco, Henne and Brohm significantly better than Ainge, Booty, Johnson and  Woodson?

I really don't know.  Tell me what you think.  Please limit the responses to thoughtful ideas.  I hate reading "so and so sucks."  If you think a QB is bad, tell me why. 

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Booty seems like backup material and his Wonderlic and interviews show it.

Woodson I think can be good behind a decent o-line. His release isn't as bad as Leftwich's in the length of time.

Flacco I think will need a lot of work and he may be too hot headed.

Brohm is perfect and I have no complaints, he will be the best of this bunch.

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bgarcia28 (4/24/2008)
Are Flacco, Henne and Brohm significantly better than Ainge, Booty, Johnson and Woodson?

I really don't know. Tell me what you think. Please limit the responses to thoughtful ideas. I hate reading "so and so sucks." If you think a QB is bad, tell me why.

From what I have personally seen and read these are the reasons that those second tier guys are second tier guys:

Ainge: Doesn't have a great arm for a man his size....Tends to wilt under the slightest pressure and his decision making ability has been questioned.

Booty: Serviceable arm, doesn't make great decisions with the ball on many occasions...More suited for a West Coast offense.

Johnson: Only knock I've heard is level of competition and a couple of character concerns.

Woodson: Funky delivery (too long) and sometime questionable decision making with ball.

Those are just the Reader's Digest versions that I've heard and seen on those guys.

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I have watched both Ryan and Henne both play in several games and both looked good IMO.  Stuart Mandell thinks highly of Henne - see below

Educated guess: College expert takes stab at predicting prospects

Story Highlights
  • Matt Ryan, DeSean Jackson, Vernon Gholston among overrated
  • Kevin Smith, James Hardy, Antoine Cason among underrated
t2.smith.ap.jpg
Central Florida's Kevin Smith steamrolled defenses, including NC State's and Texas', on his way to a 2,500-yard season.
AP

Regular readers of my College Football Mailbag know well my feelings about the NFL draft process. I even devoted an entire chapter of a book to mocking the charade. Rather than rehash all that here, I'd rather call to your attention two recent quotes I found particularly amusing:

"Are you kidding me? It's not like we play the games in shorts."

-- A major college assistant, speaking to me about the NFL's absurd overemphasis on combines and 40 times.

"Half [of mock drafts] are put together by NFL writers who watched two Notre Dame games at the airport bar and the second half of the Sugar Bowl."

-- Dan Patrick in last week's Sports Illustrated.

My annual overrated/underrated list is based almost entirely on me reading the aforementioned mock drafts and projections and thinking to myself: "Are you serious? Are they really talking about the same guy I watched in college?"

The answer, of course, is no. In most cases they're talking about a guy the scouts watched in a combine drill and downgraded because he "doesn't use his hands properly at the point of attack." (Try using that phrase in an every-day conversation.)

Quarterback

Overrated: Matt Ryan, Boston College

To be clear: Ryan definitely sold me as a future pro last season, particularly with his improbable game-winning throws at Virginia Tech and Clemson. I realize he's the best QB in this draft and I realize there will always be teams at the top of the list that need a quarterback, but potential top-three pick? Really? That's putting a lot of undue pressure on a guy who ranked 61st in the country in pass efficiency last season and threw 19 interceptions.

The ideal situation for him would be to go late in the first round to a team that doesn't need him to play right away. Instead, he's going to land with the Falcons or some other team that views him as its franchise quarterback. Ask Jay Cutler how that's working out.

Underrated: Chad Henne, Michigan

I feel like Henne isn't getting his proper due because of what appears to be a disappointing senior season. He threw for 1,938 yards. What people don't realize is Henne played the second half of the season with so much pain in his shoulder he couldn't practice during the week. The trainers would shoot him up before the games.

The real Henne is the guy who threw for 373 yards against Florida in the Capital One Bowl, the guy who got overshadowed by John David Booty in the 2007 Rose Bowl but himself completed one NFL-caliber throw after another. He's a good, solid player with a fantastic arm, and he was a four-year starter at Michigan, a place that's seen its share of future pro QBs. If I had to take a first-round QB, he would be it.

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ryan- im pretty outspoken on this issue. i think he is as overrated as they come. average arm strength, accuracy and forces a lot of throws into coverage. doesnt have ideal starting experience or career completion %, and completed 25% of his passes to his RB's, yet still failed to complete over 60% for his senior year (if i remember the stat correctly).

brohm- the #1 qb in this draft imo. good arm strength, very good accuracy, 3 years of starting experience, extremely consistent... what more do we need to make sure we get this guy?

henne- i like him, but not in the top 40. after that i think he makes more sense. i like his arm strength, he has tons of starting experience and he is very tough and is a great leader. he doesnt have an ideal release, needs work on his fundamentals/footwork, doesnt handle pressure well at all and is very streaky, not consistent like brohm was. i think with a year on the bench that very likely every qb in this draft will have the luxury of having he could really improve a lot of these things, like the fundamentals, release etc. but his pocket poise and streakiness bother me a lot.

flacco- not a fan. personally i lump him in the 3rd tier that would be a good option in the beginning of the 3rd round on. he has very good arm strength, great size and good character. however, he has spotty accuracy, only 2 years of starting experience (at a lower level than D-1) and is only rising because of his arm strength and size. unfortunately for whoever drafts him in the top half of the 2nd, those two qualities have about as much to do with NFL success as where you are selected. accuracy and intelligence are much more important, and those arent his strongest areas. (i dont know much about his intelligence, im not judging him, im just saying that with ryan and brohm people mention they have very high football IQ's, where i have not heard/read that about flacco, that is it).

woodson- i like him a lot. he needs work on his release, but has shown that he can improve it. mcshay has said multiple times that when he watched his pro day after weeks of working to improve his release/mechanics you could hardly notice the hitch in his release, it was as if it wasnt there. he is clearly dedicated to improving. but like flacco, he played in the shotgun a lot and will need to improve his fundamentals. he has great starting experience, arm strength and statistics though, and experience against SEC level competition. he will need a year to develop and work on his mechanics/fundamentals, but if he is not forced into the lineup too early he could prove to be a HUGE steal in the 3rd. i could see the dolphins snagging him and parcells looking like a genius after he steps into the lineup sometime during the 2009 season.

johnson- i really like johnson too. his arm strength is underrated, and his accuracy is very impressive. he has great mechanics just like brohm, and was supremely productive in D-II. he is a throw first qb with the ability to beat you with his legs, which i dont think the NFL has ever seen before, at least not with this kids talent. he could be the biggest steal of the draft if selected in the 3rd. he has as much potential as anyone in this draft, and fits the WCO or our offense just fine. he is truly a dynamic player. really the only knocks on him are him playing D-II ball and his size, but if he has truly added weight to be up to 210 or so, while still maintaining his game-breaking quickness... then i will have run out of negatives to discuss referring to johnson.

ainge- i dont like ainge much. he has an average arm, good accuracy, but he folds like a lawn-chair in the face of pressure. he put up good numbers at tennessee, but was surrounded with a very good supporting cast. i think his best bet is in a west coast offense with a very good offensive line and supporting cast. otherwise i think he projects as a backup in the nfl. he just doesnt have the intelligence imo.

booty- i think that despite the wonderlic and poor interviews that he is an ideal fit for the WCO, and if picked in the 4th round range he could prove to be a very good value. at worst i think he will be a reliable backup in the NFL, and he could end up being a good game-manager, like a 20/12 guy that doesnt change games but with a good defense and running game could easily guide a team to a superbowl win. he doesnt have very good arm strength, but he is accurate and throws on the move very well. he is worth a 4th round selection, no doubt.

thats how i break them down i guess.

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Mr Offseason,

Good analysis.  Couple of points -

1) Ryan has good arm strenth - not average.  I worry about his int's.  One plus though is that he elevated a BC program with average talent around him (same could be said for Woodson)

2) I also like Brohm, but wonder about the "system" tag.  - - What are your thoughts

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from what ive watched of him (not a lot of film, but some) i would disagree, i think he has average arm strength. i think he can heave it 50-60 yards if he wants to, but he has to sacrifice the pass' accuracy, which has led to about 75% or more of his interceptions occurring when he throws it long. thats just what i have seen.

i dont think the system tag fits brohm very well, but i could see why people might think that. but he had his best season despite a mediocre supporting cast as a senior, and with a horrible defense forcing the cardinals into passing situations to keep themselves in games. despite all that, he played extremely well in a different offense with a brand new head coach, and he stayed healthy all year. that is enough for me, but it might not be for some people.

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Well for what it's worth here are scout.com's take on both of these QB,s.  However I have always wondered it these guys are so good why don't they work for an NFL team - lol

Matt Ryan

QB | (6'43_4.gif", 228, 4.95) | BOSTON COLLEGE

Scouts Grade: 98

Flags: (D: DURABILITY) Player that can't stay healthy

View by: Round | Player | NCAA School | Position | NFL Team | Flagin.gif | All Ranked Playersin.gif | NFL Draft History

You are signed into Insider log?srvc%3dsz%26guid%3dDD6E8BF8-5C28-47FD-AEC2-ADEC4D16CEF4%26drop%3d0%26addata%3d820:53566:388025:53566%26a%3d1%26goto%3d;ord=2008.04.24.20.39.21?B2694665.3;abr=!ie4;abr=!ie5;dcove=o;sz=160x600;ord=2008.04.24.20.39.21?

Brian Brohm

QB | (6'27_8.gif", 230, 4.83) | LOUISVILLE

Scouts Grade: 90

Flags: (D: DURABILITY) Player that can't stay healthy

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You are signed into Insider in.gif and have access to the exclusive draft content below.

Strengths: A drop-back passer with adequate height and good overall bulk. Makes quick decisions. Is tough and will hang in the pocket to buy his receivers extra time. Displays solid overall mechanics. Keeps the ball high and has a high release point. Release quickness is adequate. Shows excellent touch and timing on throws. Knows how to change up velocities and can hit his receivers in stride in the short, intermediate and deep zones. Knows how to keep safeties honest and is also adept at reading coverage. Does a good job of selling fakes. He will surprise you at times with his ability to make some tough throws on the run. He grew up around the game of football and he's a hard worker on and off the field.

Weaknesses: Is a bit robotic. Locks on to his primary target at times. Some of his biggest flaws are seen when he faces consistent pass rush pressure (see: Rutgers and first-half vs. Miami in 2006). He tends to short-arm his throws when under pressure. Arm strength is adequate but not good. He lacks ideal mobility. He will make some impressive throws on the run but he's not consistent in that department. He lacks the foot quickness to buy many second chances and he won't run away from many NFL defenders. He will take more than his share of hits from within the pocket. Durability was a major issue earlier in his career and his potential to hold up in the NFL remains somewhat of a concern. He had surgery on his non-throwing shoulder in January of 2007. He missed nearly three full games with a thumb injury in 2006 and suffered a season-ending ACL tear in the 10th game of the 2005 season. Finally, while he's competitive and works hard, there are some questions regarding his leadership skills he's not overly vocal as a leader.

Overall: Brohm's decision to return for his senior season will be second-guessed due to his team's failure to meet expectations in 2007. From where we stand, the experience has allowed Brohm to showcase aspects of his game never seen before. First off, he has shown mental toughness in dealing with the adversity. Secondly, he has eased concerns regarding durability by remaining healthy despite taking a beating throughout his senior season. On the plus side; he is a smart, hard working pocket passer with very good accuracy and the toughness to hang in the pocket. On the minus side; he lacks ideal mobility, arm strength and leadership skills. Also, Brohm comes with some durability baggage. With all that in mind, Brohm projects as a first-round selection but we still think he has too many weaknesses to stamp him with a top-15 grade.

* Player biographies are provided by Scouts Inc.
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bgarcia28 (4/24/2008)
Are Flacco, Henne and Brohm significantly better than Ainge, Booty, Johnson and  Woodson?

I really don't know.  Tell me what you think.  Please limit the responses to thoughtful ideas.  I hate reading "so and so sucks."  If you think a QB is bad, tell me why. 

Flacco should be a 3rd rounder, anyway. The only reason he's shot up the boards is b/c of his arm.

Both Henne and Brohm run circles around Ainge, Johnson, and Woodson. I like JDB as a WCO QB, and IMO, I feel he'll be a pretty good fit for that offense.

Johnson is a long-term project b/c of the weak competition he playd. And the 43 TD/1INT is inflated for that very reason IMO.

 

Woodson has a Mathusula-llike release that'll get him killed by NFL D's. It's very hard to change your delivery and still be eefective. Plus, he also has aproblem reading coverage and going through reads when his pressure breaks down. Also, he played in a 'gun offense.

Ainge? He's #####ing garbage! He doesn't have it between the ears, has a weak arm, plays turtle ball when he's pressured as well as makes bad decisions. No thanks.

So IMO, there is a SUBSTANTIAL difference(w/the exception of JDB) between the 2nd and 3rd tier QB's.

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Mr. Offseason (4/24/2008)[

woodson- i like him a lot. he needs work on his release, but has shown that he can improve it. mcshay has said multiple times that when he watched his pro day after weeks of working to improve his release/mechanics you could hardly notice the hitch in his release, it was as if it wasnt there. he is clearly dedicated to improving. but like flacco, he played in the shotgun a lot and will need to improve his fundamentals. he has great starting experience, arm strength and statistics though, and experience against SEC level competition. he will need a year to develop and work on his mechanics/fundamentals, but if he is not forced into the lineup too early he could prove to be a HUGE steal in the 3rd. i could see the dolphins snagging him and parcells looking like a genius after he steps into the lineup sometime during the 2009 season.

johnson- i really like johnson too. his arm strength is underrated, and his accuracy is very impressive. he has great mechanics just like brohm, and was supremely productive in D-II. he is a throw first qb with the ability to beat you with his legs, which i dont think the NFL has ever seen before, at least not with this kids talent. he could be the biggest steal of the draft if selected in the 3rd. he has as much potential as anyone in this draft, and fits the WCO or our offense just fine. he is truly a dynamic player. really the only knocks on him are him playing D-II ball and his size, but if he has truly added weight to be up to 210 or so, while still maintaining his game-breaking quickness... then i will have run out of negatives to discuss referring to johnson.

Woodson will never be effective once he changes his hitch in his release IMO. Plus the fact he played in the gun is a major red flag.

Johnson is a long-term project. I could put up 43TD's and 1INT against the competition he played. I mean Dayton?! C'MON! Those #'s, IMO, are inflated b/c of that. Not sold on Johnson.

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i think it is pretty well documented that we strongly disagree regarding woodson and johnson.

personally, i think that given an opportunity to continue improving his release (which he did for his pro day and looked good throwing to his receivers during it) and develop on the bench for a year or so that he could have success. that is if he isnt forced in too early. if he can go in when he is ready, i think he could be a big steal in the 3rd.

as far as johnson is concerned, i have to respectfully disagree that you would have put up 43 tds and 1 int against the competition he played. he has picture perfect mechanics, has good arm strength, has lots of starting experience and is a pass first qb with the ability to beat you with his legs if the play breaks down. i think he will need a year to develop, but just like woodson, if he can enter the starting lineup when he is ready then i think he could prove to be a very good player. if either are forced in too early then i think it could really stunt their development as prospects.

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Mr. Offseason (4/24/2008)
i think it is pretty well documented that we strongly disagree regarding woodson and johnson.

personally, i think that given an opportunity to continue improving his release (which he did for his pro day and looked good throwing to his receivers during it) and develop on the bench for a year or so that he could have success. that is if he isnt forced in too early. if he can go in when he is ready, i think he could be a big steal in the 3rd.

as far as johnson is concerned, i have to respectfully disagree that you would have put up 43 tds and 1 int against the competition he played. he has picture perfect mechanics, has good arm strength, has lots of starting experience and is a pass first qb with the ability to beat you with his legs if the play breaks down. i think he will need a year to develop, but just like woodson, if he can enter the starting lineup when he is ready then i think he could prove to be a very good player. if either are forced in too early then i think it could really stunt their development as prospects.

Color me not impressed.

My mind is made up. Maybe I'll be wrong down the road. We'll see.

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im definately past the point of trying to change your mind. you are much more stubborn than i am and i thought i was stubborn. haha

just wrote my opinion out, figured id do it in case other people wanted to discuss it i guess. weve talked about it about 300,000 times the past few weeks/months.

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Mr. Offseason (4/25/2008)
im definately past the point of trying to change your mind. you are much more stubborn than i am and i thought i was stubborn. haha

just wrote my opinion out, figured id do it in case other people wanted to discuss it i guess. weve talked about it about 300,000 times the past few weeks/months.

I hear ya there, I'm just ready for tomorrow.

Actually, my stepmum is actually more stubborn then I am. Hard to believe, isn't it? :laugh:

I get it off of my paternal Grandmother.

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Honestly, Flacco reminds me of Jim McMahon. One of those guys who's belief in themselves attains cult status in the FBI.

Not that he couldn't be great. If his potential is as great as he thinks it is, he'll be the second coming of Bradshaw.

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Ainge? He's #####ing garbage! He doesn't have it between the ears, has a weak arm, plays turtle ball when he's pressured as well as makes bad decisions. No thanks.

Come on man, this is an unfair evaluation of this guy. All he did was lead the south to their first win in four years on that final drive at the senior bowl. His senior year was very impressive considering Tennessee had a crappy running game and he was forced to carry the offense on his back. Not to mention his impressive performance in his bowl game vs Wisconsin. 

By the way he has an above average arm, He's definately peaking at the right time.

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I think Brohm is the top teir of Quarterback in this draft. Out of who you classified, (Brohm, Henne, Flacco) I think they are better than Ainge and Booty. Flacco I'm not really sold on, but I think he could be better than those 2. I'm not ready to say they are better than Josh Johnson simply because we don't know what Johnson can do on another level, but he absolutly dominated on the level he was on and that's what you look for. I think Brennan can be classified in the third teir as well. I think with enough help around him he would have had a much better game against the Bulldogs, but he definatly has to get used to another level of speed. With more help he still may have struggled just because of that adjustment period. But I think Brohm is the class of this draft and I hope we get him.

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bgarcia28 (4/24/2008)
Are Flacco, Henne and Brohm significantly better than Ainge, Booty, Johnson and Woodson?

I really don't know. Tell me what you think. Please limit the responses to thoughtful ideas. I hate reading "so and so sucks." If you think a QB is bad, tell me why.

Why are all the replies only talking about Brohm, Ryan, and Flacco? The post referred to more than just these 3 QBs.

Personally I like Johnson in the 3rd round after building up the OL and DL.

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