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I just got done watching Michigan vs. Ohio State


JDB2688
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First of all, for my opening statement, I want all the ignorance floating around that Vernon Gholston destroyed Jake Long to stop. It won't, but that's because once one person says it, the ignorant ones who did not watch Long on every snap of the game like I just did will follow suit.

It simply did not happen.

I can honestly probably count maybe 10 times when Gholston lined up against Jake Long. I don't know the exact number, but when I have time I will go back and count and I guarantee that's roughly the number. It just simply didn't happen that often. The Buckeyes knew where the weakness on the offensive line was...it was from the left guard all the way over to the right tackle and that's where Gholston spent the majority of the game lined up. He had 3 sacks on the day...one against Jake Long, one off the right tackle, and one where he blasted Henne right up the middle.

So for the informed of you out there that actually watched or studied this game, you'd know Jake Long spent the majority of the day battling number 97, whose name I do not know and don't have the time at the moment to look up. There were 4-5 plays that caught my attention about Jake Long and they are as follows.

First of all, there was a strange sack that happened earlier in the game that I replayed a couple times. The play started where Long was blocking his guy and the LG was blocking his guy. Sorry for not being technical, but I'm pressed for time and will answer any questions later about it. But anyway, they both started blocking their own guy and then somehow very awkwardly, the LG got beat by his guy and the guy Long was blocking left to go inside and after the LG got beat, Long tried to block the guy but he got the sack anyway. He was already past both of them, but Long looked to be the last one attempting to block him and the guy got a sack. It wasn't recorded on Long, which makes me believe it was indeed the LG's fault, but it was a strange play where at first glance Long could be held accountable.

Let me just say this: there was absolutely no contest in the running game. Not Vernon Gholston, not #97, no one. When Long locked down, he blocked and finished until the whistle. He blocked Gholston off the line and pushed him back, he turned 97 anyway he wanted to make sure he didn't get Hart. There was only one play that I saw that was of slight concern, but it was negated by a holding penalty by the tight end. It was a sweep to the left side and Long didn't really have a defensive linemen to block as he sweeps left and as fate would have it, the guy on the second level he attempted to block was Laurinaitis. It was really no contest because Laurinaitis just beat him to the sideline and Long never really got a hand on him. That was the lone problem I saw running the ball.

Just like what I saw with the Florida game, there was one time when Long was knocked backwards and to the ground and it was by 97, not Gholston. That's once per game that I'm noticing. He didn't get the sack, but he did bull rush Long one time and I don't know whether he just got the better of him, Long slipped on the wet grass (bad conditions out there, fumbles, dropped balls all over the place), or what the problem was, but he did get bull rushed one time.

On to Long vs. Gholston. Again, I have no idea where people get it in their head that this was some great battle between the two. It just simply didn't happen for the majority of the game. Ohio State was smart enough to know not to line Gholston up on Long the entire game if he was going to get to the quarterback. There was the sack, where Gholston beat him outside, one play where if Henne would have held on to the ball maybe 2 seconds longer he would've been pressured, and then a time that at first glance you might think Gholston beat Long, but it was a screen pass. Anyone smart enough to notice knows that the offensive linemen usually chips the guy and lets him go to get out front and block for the back on the screen. That's what happened. One of their linebacker read the play and batted the ball before it got to Hart, but Long did his job on that play. Again, when Gholston lined up on Long when it was a running play, he did absolutely nothing. I challenge anyone to watch the game and think otherwise. In fact a couple times I saw Long move Gholston off the line more than he did 97 a lot of the times.

The absolute main reason I think people assume Long had a horrible game was because as a whole, Michigan's line was bested by Ohio State's. While that was the case, it was from LG on over 98% of the time. I know what a bad offensive lineman looks like being an Atlanta Falcons fan. If we drafted Long, he's easily, by far, 100% our best offensive lineman. If this was his "bad" game, then if he's still on the board when we pick, we better hear his name called.

Leave some input and if you have any questions, let me hear it.

Update: LSU vs. Ohio State...Glenn Dorsey.

To begin this, before I did my two game review (this is going to be the last one, I think 2 games each is enough to get a good idea) I went into it wanting Glenn Dorsey more than Jake Long. I thought Dorsey was an elite talent that we needed in the middle of our defense and Long might not be the dominant LT that should be picked 3rd overall.

My opinion has changed.

I liked the fact that Dorsey was the leader on that defense, which was one of the best in the nation and obviously good enough to win them a National Championship. He does have great energy and has the intangibles you want in a leader that you can build around. I just don't see the dominance that I was expecting.

Maybe I was expecting too much. Maybe I read too much into the hype. Whatever it was, after watching Dorsey and Dorsey alone for every snap that he was on defense for these two games, I didn't see the kind of dominance I've heard and read about. I'll move on to the game a little more, but I wanted to get this out of the way.

While I was watching the game I noticed about midway into the 2nd quarter that Dorsey was seeing a lot more double teams than he did against Florida. I also noticed the same thing about the double teams that I noticed in the Florida game...he couldn't beat them. Now I know it's unthinkable to ask a guy to beat a double team every time he faces it. That's unheard of and if it was possible, Dorsey would be a lock to go number one overall. However, when you think of dominant defensive tackles (Warren Sapp) you think of a guy that can at least beat the double team every now and then. I didn't see that through either of these games. When they locked on to Dorsey, that was it. He didn't make a play in the passing game or against the run.

I also noticed one other quirk about Dorsey. I call it a quirk because I can't figure out if it's good or bad. I noticed that once a play started, if he didn't explode off the snap he would stop almost literally and stand still waiting to jump to bat the ball down. I don't believe I noticed it as much in the Florida game, but he definitely did it a lot in this game. He would stop and do the kind of half way jump that you would expect out of a lesser lineman on the pump fake. He did it often and it basically took him out of the play. While it's good to want to bat the ball down, the way to do it is how Rod Coleman did it...just get the big paw up in the air, don't leave your feet.

Another thing I noticed is that most of the plays Dorsey was in on, he wasn't the first one there. There were two solo plays that I saw Dorsey make...one was a stuffed run at the line of scrimmage where he ran around the LG and tackled Wells. The other was the sack he got with about 6:30 left in the game which forced a fumble. In the two games I watched Dorsey play in exclusively, he's had 2 sacks. If you read my last post, then you know the first one against Florida was against no offensive line. This one was in 6:30 left in the game. For the first 53:30 seconds, I literally saw nothing that Trey Lewis didn't do last season for us. Really, nothing. He took up double teams (Lewis did that) he stuffed one run (Lewis almost assuredly could do that) and he looked more like he was there to take up space than to make plays (again, Lewis did that). I know and understand part of having Glenn Dorsey is so that he frees up the teammates to make plays, but I compare that to a receiver like Calvin Johnson (or Moss in the pros)...they take up double teams and even triple teams at times, which allows the guy on the other side single coverage and better matchups, but they still get theirs. Moss double covered can still break 100 yards. Dorsey really did nothing other than when he stuffed one run and made the one sack.

I'm sure you noticed I pointed out that he got the sack with 6:30 left in the game. I made a point to say that because I want to compare it to another draft prospect...Matt Ryan. I'll be the first to agree that he's overrated and is not #1 overall pick material. However, it's a little ironic to me that people bash Ryan for doing his best work late in the game after being average for the majority of the game to then go on to praise Dorsey for doing largely the same thing.

I want to put emphasis on this because I know I'm going to get it: I did not make these posts to bash Dorsey and praise Long. I was being objective in trying to evaluate who is best for this team right now. As I stated before, I liked Dorsey more before I reviewed these tapes. Afterwards, I can't say that. Long showed consistency in his work by giving up one sack and dominating in at least one facet of the game, while being, at minimum, solid in another. Dorsey didn't show me any dominance and only showed me flashes.

In conclusion, my choice for the Falcons: Jake Long.

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grendel (4/3/2008)
No, that's about right. Gholston was moving all around, not lined up against anyone in particular all night. Here's the thing though... You say you saw less than 10 plays where Long was lined up against Gholston... Probably only 5 of those were passing plays... And Gholston had a sack and some pressures. 1 out of 5 plays to give up a sack is not good.

I agree, but there's a reason Gholston is listed as a top 3-5 prospect right along with Jake Long. Looking at the total body of work, 1 out of 10 plays that be outright beat Long. On rushing plays, it didn't happen at all. How come no one points to that as a weakness for Gholston? He did absolutely nothing against a pro caliber tackle against the run, yet all you hear is that he manhandled Long. He beat him outright one of out 10 plays. 90% of the time Long got the best of him.

On the play he got a sack, it was a passing play on the very next call. Gholston was again lined up on Long, but this time Long stood him up and didn't let him anywhere close to the quarterback. I'd say one play isn't anything to be concerned about, especially when it's against a top rated prospect like Gholston.

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Actually, I have pointed out that this is a serious concern about Gholston. For a guy with so much disruptive ability, the reality is that he had only 43 tackles in 13 games. While he had 14 sacks in the passing game, he only managed 1.5 tackles for loss in the running game. For a guy with so much muscle and power, he has a tendency to surrender in the running game. That's why I laugh whenever I see people say he's the best DE in the draft over Chris Long, who had 79 tackles (i.e. 36 more) despite playing in a 3-4 scheme.

Glolston is a largely one-dimensional player, albeit someone whose one dimension is of tremendous value in football.

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So 90% of the time, Long beat Gholston? Ok....there's probably about 60 offensive plays in the average game of football for a team....So, given that most of the teams in the NFL have players that are fairly comparable to Gholston(not physically, but in terms of pure football skill) starting at right end for them, we can expect roughly 6 sacks a game from Long's man....if he played Vernon Gholston for every game of a 16 game schedule, and he played him just as well as he did in this game, where you laud his play, Gholston would finish the year with a modest 96 sacks...you're right...Jake Long is a beast.

Look, he's not that bad, but he has one weakness.....he struggles with speed...he's gonna get beat by speed...and Re's in the NFL have speed all day.

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This is what I was saying.  He's solid, but not great.  And he was involved in giving up another sack in that game, though it wasn't counted against him.  Never said that Long vs Gholston was an epic battle, either... anyone who actually watched the game wouldn't have.  Gholston was all over the place.

But nooo... I'm some rebel draftnik with an agenda, huh halsey? :rolleyes:

Jake Long is a monstrous run blocker and above average in pass protection.  The attributes should be reversed for a franchise LT.... monstrous in pass protection, capable run blocker.

And as for Long covering on a sweep, that's been a noted weakness for him for a while.  He has great power and ability with straight forward blocking, but he doesn't have the quickness and speed to consistently pull and cover a sweep or outside run.

He is better than anyone we have on our o-line, though... and that's why I won't complain if we take him.  He's not the best choice we could make at #3, but he's not a bad one.

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Carter (4/3/2008)
This is what I was saying. He's solid, but not great. And he was involved in giving up another sack in that game, though it wasn't counted against him. Never said that Long vs Gholston was an epic battle, either... anyone who actually watched the game wouldn't have. Gholston was all over the place.

But nooo... I'm some rebel draftnik with an agenda, huh halsey? :rolleyes:

Jake Long is a monstrous run blocker and above average in pass protection. The attributes should be reversed for a franchise LT.... monstrous in pass protection, capable run blocker.

And as for Long covering on a sweep, that's been a noted weakness for him for a while. He has great power and ability with straight forward blocking, but he doesn't have the quickness and speed to consistently pull and cover a sweep or outside run.

He is better than anyone we have on our o-line, though... and that's why I won't complain if we take him. He's not the best choice we could make at #3, but he's not a bad one.

I sorta get what you are saying...but any pick that isn't the best pick is a bad pick.

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mr pickle (4/4/2008)
I sorta get what you are saying...but any pick that isn't the best pick is a bad pick.

It might be a bit subjective in that regard.  He would almost certainly be an anchor on our o-line for years to come, but if he doesn't pan out as the franchise LT we drafted him to be at #3 overall, then I think a lot of people would be very disappointed with the pick in retrospect.  Then again, a lot of people may be thrilled to have a dominant RT or RG, as well.

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People want to say that Chris Long is the safest pick, when I feel it is Jake Long.

Chris Long may look great now, but there is nothing that can say he won't just be another Justin Smith- a top 5 DE who never truly panned out. Chris Long my have a long career in the NFL, but no one can guarantee he will be a star.

On the other hand, I look at a guy like Jake Long, who has great potential at LT, but if (and this is worst case scenario) he does move to RT, his skill set transfers quite well.

So if Chris Long doesn't pan out, he will look like a bust. If Jake Long doesn't pan out at LT, we move him to RT and he would appear to be just fine, if not better.

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I think a #3 overall pick at OT moving to RT would constitute bust status.  At that pick, he is sharing ground with some incredible LTs in the NFL.

It would be awesome to have him at RT... I just wish it was the blatant and accepted motivation for drafting him to begin with.  His potential at LT is up for discussion... he may become a very good one, but one thing I think no one can deny is that he is a far better RT prospect.

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I didn't think Dorsey was playing at 100% in that game.  I read where he was 'reported' as fully healed from his ankle/knee injury earlier in the year, but for some reason when I watched the game I didn't get the feeling that Dorsey was all the way back yet.

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Long will be a pro bowl LT.  He is an outstanding pass blocker.  Don't believe the hype about him being "above average" or not a true LT.  Just watch him play and you will notice that he never gets any penalties, practicly never gives up a sack, and consistently blows his man off the line and gets to the second level in the running game.  He also comes from a bigtime program with a history of producing great linemen.  JUST WATCH HIM.  Forget about all the bs, he is outstanding in the passing game.

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And people once again fail to realize that left tackle is not a dominant run blocking position.

If even Mel Kiper can realize that Jake Long doesn't approach Joe Thomas as a LT prospect, why can't all you forum experts accept it as well?  You only want him so much because Kiper and company have him rated that high anyways.

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It shouldn't be a big shock that Gholston is being mentioned as a 3-4 defensive end. He's great when turned loose and allowed to rush the passer, but he's not all that productive against the run. Long is the better defensive end by a wide margin, he put up as many sacks playing 3-4 defensive end along with an incredible number of tackles, TFLs and pass deflections. That's not to say Gholston won't be great in the NFL, he just has a lot to learn and a lot to improve on.

Jake Long is definitely dominant against the run, especially when not asked to go outside on a sweep and is simply allowed to beat down his man. The problem, as it always has been, is that he's not the best in pass protection and that's always going to be more important than his abilities in the running game as long as he plays LT. The LT always will be the least important runblocker and by far the most important pass blocker, and as long as we are in a scheme in which we run first and pass only when necessary or advantageous, we need someone that can keep the pressure off of the quarterback when it counts. The other four guys don't have to have the quickest feet or the longest arms, they are the ones that need the power and the desire to maul. We can get those guys in later rounds. But the "franchise LT" is the quarterback's bulletproof bodyguard and must be able to protect him from anyone.

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Carter (4/4/2008)
And people once again fail to realize that left tackle is not a dominant run blocking position.

If even Mel Kiper can realize that Jake Long doesn't approach Joe Thomas as a LT prospect, why can't all you forum experts accept it as well?  You only want him so much because Kiper and company have him rated that high anyways.

 

Jake Long is a better pass protector than any other tackle in this draft.  Don't try to hold his stellar run blocking against him.  Saying that an OT has to be as good as Joe Thomas to go third is silly.  Does Dmac have to be as good as Peterson to go 7th?  Does Ryan have to be as good as Manning to go 1st? 

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maxatlanta (4/4/2008)
Carter (4/4/2008)
And people once again fail to realize that left tackle is not a dominant run blocking position.

If even Mel Kiper can realize that Jake Long doesn't approach Joe Thomas as a LT prospect, why can't all you forum experts accept it as well?  You only want him so much because Kiper and company have him rated that high anyways.

Jake Long is a better pass protector than any other tackle in this draft.

:w00t::w00t::w00t: 

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maxatlanta (4/4/2008)
Carter (4/4/2008)
Andpeople once again fail to realize that left tackle is not a dominant run blocking position.

If even Mel Kiper can realize that Jake Long doesn't approach Joe Thomas as a LT prospect, why can't all you forum experts accept it as well? You only want him so much because Kiper and company have him rated that high anyways.

Jake Long isa better pass protector than any other tackle in this draft.

You do realize that Chris Williams put up similar stats in pass protection in a better conference, and Ryan Clady is a better physical specimen as a passblocker, right?

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  • 4 weeks later...

Glenn Dorsey was the #1 composite player in the NFL this draft and he reportedly had the highest overall grade of a defensive player in 6 years. I deeply respect your attempt to research the matter and form your own conclusions. I think you needed to find more tape, though.

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jidady (4/29/2008)
Glenn Dorsey was the #1 composite player in the NFL this draft and he reportedly had the highest overall grade of a defensive player in 6 years. I deeply respect your attempt to research the matter and form your own conclusions. I think you needed to find more tape, though.

I would if I could, obviously. I know we all wish we had the access to the game tapes we wanted, but I just selected a few games that I thought were highlight games for him this past season. I know it's not everything, but there are a lot of red flags with Dorsey. Size, injury, and production (Ellis had better numbers) are question marks for me.

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Fair enough. Like I said, I sincerely applaud your attempt to track down tapes and form your own opinion. Moving forward into the 2008 season, I think you'll find that this particular board is a wonderful resource for player prospect discussions. We have in-game threads and the like for important match-ups (though some of those occur on the college board as well).

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JDB259 (4/29/2008)
jidady (4/29/2008)
Glenn Dorsey was the #1 composite player in the NFL this draft and he reportedly had the highest overall grade of a defensive player in 6 years. I deeply respect your attempt to research the matter and form your own conclusions. I think you needed to find more tape, though.

I would if I could, obviously. I know we all wish we had the access to the game tapes we wanted, but I just selected a few games that I thought were highlight games for him this past season. I know it's not everything, but there are a lot of red flags with Dorsey. Size, injury, and production (Ellis had better numbers) are question marks for me.

Great post JDB.  I think that there are alot of concerns about Dorsey's health along with the football facts that you pointed out.

I too was in favor of drafting Dorsey but now I am glad we drafted Ryan.  I think Ryan is really hungry to learn and succeed in the NFL.  There is something about this guy that makes me believe in him and I hope that I am right.

Again, great post and great research.

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