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I was just watching Jamie Dukes and another guy on NFL Network talking about the state of our franchise and Jamie said we have traded away and released all of our "fire" guys like Alge, Deangelo, and Rod. The other guy stated that our new coach is a "safe" coach and the new GM is safe and they want "safe" players on the team. Jamie replied safe doesn't equal winning so how am I supposed to believe that the guys we sign and draft will make us a winning franchise? I like Turner but outside of him who do we have on this team that is franchise making? Also how can we win with next to nothing in talent I can name on one hand the decent to good talent we have. Don't confuse my frustration for wanting to abandon this team, I just want someone who is great at reasoning and debating to put together an analysis on why we can be a great team.

Thanks in advance

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It all depends on who you want to believe...a guy like TD, who is the GM, who knows the details  and directions of the team in order to make changes for the better OR a guy who can only make opinions based on what he sees from the outside.

Smart money would be on TD. Dukes knows no more than we do right now. Plus, those so-called "fire" guys really didn't help us the past couple of years.

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bulldogfalcon (3/22/2008)
I was just watching Jamie Dukes and another guy on NFL Network talking about the state of our franchise and Jamie said we have traded away and released all of our "fire" guys like Alge, Deangelo, and Rod. The other guy stated that our new coach is a "safe" coach and the new GM is safe and they want "safe" players on the team. Jamie replied safe doesn't equal winning so how am I supposed to believe that the guys we sign and draft will make us a winning franchise? I like Turner but outside of him who do we have on this team that is franchise making? Also how can we win with next to nothing in talent I can name on one hand the decent to good talent we have. Don't confuse my frustration for wanting to abandon this team, I just want someone who is great at reasoning and debating to put together an analysis on why we can be a great team.

Thanks in advance

This is one of the best discussion/thought provoking posts I have seen in a while.  I have been saying the exact same thing that Jamie touched on.  WTF does "safe" mean.  It sure doesn't exactly mean winning.  Like I said before, AB is trying to build a Fortune 500 company and not a winning NFL Football Team.  Good Post dude.  I applaud you.  Let the FOOTBALL discussion begin.

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Did we win with "fire" guys like Alge, Deangelo, and Rod?? NO

It is going to take time it is not going to happen in one off-season. We still have Norwood, Roddy,ABE,Boley, We have 4 draft picks in the top 48. We have a GM that was under one of the best GMs in the NFL. We have a new head coach that loves to teach the game of football. They may called them safe picks, but I call it smart picks

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Statick (3/22/2008)
It all depends on who you want to believe...a guy like TD, who is the GM, who knows the details  and directions of the team in order to make changes for the better OR a guy who can only make opinions based on what he sees from the outside.

Smart money would be on TD. Dukes knows no more than we do right now. Plus, those so-called "fire" guys really didn't help us the past couple of years.

Don't dismiss what Jamie says.  Jamie probably gets more respect from players than TD.  Same for Deion and Rod Woodson.  Players talk to these guys and really tell them whats going on "behind closed doors".  Trust me.  Thomas Dimitroff is not ALL WISE and ALL KNOWING!!!  Remember, Rich McKay was automatically made a Saint when he came in in 2004.  How did that work out?

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67camaro (3/22/2008)
Did we win with "fire" guys like Alge, Deangelo, and Rod?? NO

It is going to take time it is not going to happen in one off-season. We still have Norwood, Roddy,ABE,Boley, We have 4 draft picks in the top 48. We have a GM that was under one of the best GMs in the NFL. We have a new head coach that loves to teach the game of football. They may called them safe picks, but I call it smart picks

Were they the reason we where terrible last year?  I thinbk that had more to do with the way the team was constructed by our former GM.  One player goes and the whole team falls apart.  Nothing was learned from our 2003 season.  And that coach description reminds me of Bobby Petrino. 

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Statick (3/22/2008)
It all depends on who you want to believe...a guy like TD, who is the GM, who knows the details  and directions of the team in order to make changes for the better OR a guy who can only make opinions based on what he sees from the outside.

Smart money would be on TD. Dukes knows no more than we do right now. Plus, those so-called "fire" guys really didn't help us the past couple of years.

Don't dismiss what Jamie says.  Jamie probably gets more respect from players than TD.  Same for Deion and Rod Woodson.  Players talk to these guys and really tell them whats going on "behind closed doors".  Trust me.  Thomas Dimitroff is not ALL WISE and ALL KNOWING!!!  Remember, Rich McKay was automatically made a Saint when he came in in 2004.  How did that work out?

I'm going to totally dismiss what Jamie says. Just because he "gets respect" from players than TD (pure speculation on your part, I'm sure) doesn't mean that he can predict the direction that the franchise is going. TD is the one man that can do that and he doing it.

If Jamie Dukes was so smart, then he'd be behind a GM desk and not a commentator's desk. He's guessing just like the rest of us.

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I like the way things are shaping up. Look at the teams that are the best in the league right now or over the last few years. Who are the fire guys on those teams like the Pats, Colts, Packers? I think Dukes confuses "fire" with ranting in the media when it should be kept behind closed doors. I'd be willing to bet that Brady and Manning jump on players that they feel are messing up but when the media asks them about it, they don't talk about it because it ends up way out of proportion.

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Statick (3/22/2008)
Statick (3/22/2008)
It all depends on who you want to believe...a guy like TD, who is the GM, who knows the details and directions of the team in order to make changes for the better OR a guy who can only make opinions based on what he sees from the outside.

Smart money would be on TD. Dukes knows no more than we do right now. Plus, those so-called "fire" guys really didn't help us the past couple of years.

Don't dismiss what Jamie says. Jamie probably gets more respect from players than TD. Same for Deion and Rod Woodson. Players talk to these guys and really tell them whats going on "behind closed doors". Trust me. Thomas Dimitroff is not ALL WISE and ALL KNOWING!!! Remember, Rich McKay was automatically made a Saint when he came in in 2004. How did that work out?

I'm going to totally dismiss what Jamie says. Just because he "gets respect" from players than TD (pure speculationon your part,I'm sure) doesn't mean that he can predict the direction that the franchise is going. TD is the one man that can do and he doing it.

If Jamie Dukes was so smart, then he'd be behind a GM desk and not a commentator's desk. He's guessing just like the rest of us.

This is true but he is a former player and not some Joe Schmo pretending to understand infrastructure and dialogging whatever comes to mind. We dismiss a lot of good analyzers due to what you stated and miss the mark on key ingredients to help us become a good franchise and not just a good team. I can think of plenty drafts when we had the opportunity to draft perennial pro-bowlers but went the "safe" route.

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Statick (3/22/2008)
Plus, those so-called "fire" guys really didn't help us the past couple of years.

Exactly right.  Plus, what does he mean by "fire guys?"  I don't regard Coleman, Hall and Crumpler as similar personalities AT ALL.

Crumpler and Coleman were good, solid, day-in, day-out contributors who played all out all the time.  Both were released because their production for the $$$ was just not there anymore.

Hall was a big mouth jerk who had top-flight talent and very little will to use it.  He made fundamental mistakes like jamming with the wrong hand or jumping routes until the WR burned him with a double move.  He could have been one of the top-5 corners in the league, but he displayed a terrible attitude toward being coached ("no one came in here and told Keith Brooking how to tackle...."  Really?  Maybe that's because Keith Brooking KNOWS HOW TO TACKLE!).  Rather than lose him next year for nothing we got what we could.  I don't recall Jamie whining about us trading Matt Schaub for the same reason (another move I agreed with, BTW).

Anyway, I don't think it is fair AT ALL to suggest that Norwood, White, Boley, etc. are not "fire" players.  Frankly, I think it is a grave sin of omission to not include Warrick Dunn in that estimation as well.  We got rid of him, too, remember?

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well this is my take.

I think that we got rid of guys who have been good for us in the past, but when we needed them the most, last year, they didn't show up and lead the team to wins.  IMO the front office says that we can get that same prduction from bargain free agents and draft picks.  Meanwhile, we will stock the team with good to great draft picks that can elevate the play of the team over time.  The philosophy of the team has changed.  We no longer are looking for splash players, but solid guys that you can depend on.  When we get our lines taken care of, we will be able to see the abilities of skill players even more.  It will take 2 or 3 years for us to get ALL the linemen and linebackers we need to compete at a high level consistantly. 

It really would have made no sense to keep all of the high price guys that would be at retirement by the time we get our team built because their cap number would make us take even longer to get the talent into the fold that will take us to the next level.

we can get 4 or 5 impact guys this year as the draft stands right now(if we make the right choices)

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bulldogfalcon (3/22/2008)
Statick (3/22/2008)
Statick (3/22/2008)
It all depends on who you want to believe...a guy like TD, who is the GM, who knows the details and directions of the team in order to make changes for the better OR a guy who can only make opinions based on what he sees from the outside.

Smart money would be on TD. Dukes knows no more than we do right now. Plus, those so-called "fire" guys really didn't help us the past couple of years.

Don't dismiss what Jamie says. Jamie probably gets more respect from players than TD. Same for Deion and Rod Woodson. Players talk to these guys and really tell them whats going on "behind closed doors". Trust me. Thomas Dimitroff is not ALL WISE and ALL KNOWING!!! Remember, Rich McKay was automatically made a Saint when he came in in 2004. How did that work out?

I'm going to totally dismiss what Jamie says. Just because he "gets respect" from players than TD (pure speculationon your part,I'm sure) doesn't mean that he can predict the direction that the franchise is going. TD is the one man that can do and he doing it.

If Jamie Dukes was so smart, then he'd be behind a GM desk and not a commentator's desk. He's guessing just like the rest of us.

This is true but he is a former player and not some Joe Schmo pretending to understand infrastructure and dialogging whatever comes to mind. We dismiss a lot of good analyzers due to what you stated and miss the mark on key ingredients to helps us become a good franchise and not just a good team. I can think of plenty of drafts when we had the opportunity to grad perennial pro-bowlers but went the "safe" route.

I've heard Dukes opinions before and I was never too impressed with him, therefore I've never respected his opinion, former player or no.

We've missed on key players due to McKay's ineptness and his willingness to just plug the holes by overpaying FAs who have never panned out for us. His bad decisions have floored this franchise. That's why I really don't see why the heck you're taking what Dukes says as gospel.

TD, so far, has made the tough, non-popular decisions and hasn't even drafted for us yet. Give the man a chance. If how he drafted for the Pats was any indication, then we're in for a great one.

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Statick (3/22/2008)
Statick (3/22/2008)
It all depends on who you want to believe...a guy like TD, who is the GM, who knows the details  and directions of the team in order to make changes for the better OR a guy who can only make opinions based on what he sees from the outside.

Smart money would be on TD. Dukes knows no more than we do right now. Plus, those so-called "fire" guys really didn't help us the past couple of years.

Don't dismiss what Jamie says.  Jamie probably gets more respect from players than TD.  Same for Deion and Rod Woodson.  Players talk to these guys and really tell them whats going on "behind closed doors".  Trust me.  Thomas Dimitroff is not ALL WISE and ALL KNOWING!!!  Remember, Rich McKay was automatically made a Saint when he came in in 2004.  How did that work out?

I'm going to totally dismiss what Jamie says. Just because he "gets respect" from players than TD (pure speculation on your part, I'm sure) doesn't mean that he can predict the direction that the franchise is going. TD is the one man that can do that and he doing it.

If Jamie Dukes was so smart, then he'd be behind a GM desk and not a commentator's desk. He's guessing just like the rest of us.

Terrance Mathis thinks he's smart enough to be a GM and actually wants to be one.  Maybe Jamie and Terrence know more NFL players and not enough NFL executives, ie "Wrong Connections"

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rollow lawson (3/22/2008)
Statick (3/22/2008)
Statick (3/22/2008)
It all depends on who you want to believe...a guy like TD, who is the GM, who knows the details  and directions of the team in order to make changes for the better OR a guy who can only make opinions based on what he sees from the outside.

Smart money would be on TD. Dukes knows no more than we do right now. Plus, those so-called "fire" guys really didn't help us the past couple of years.

Don't dismiss what Jamie says.  Jamie probably gets more respect from players than TD.  Same for Deion and Rod Woodson.  Players talk to these guys and really tell them whats going on "behind closed doors".  Trust me.  Thomas Dimitroff is not ALL WISE and ALL KNOWING!!!  Remember, Rich McKay was automatically made a Saint when he came in in 2004.  How did that work out?

I'm going to totally dismiss what Jamie says. Just because he "gets respect" from players than TD (pure speculation on your part, I'm sure) doesn't mean that he can predict the direction that the franchise is going. TD is the one man that can do that and he doing it.

If Jamie Dukes was so smart, then he'd be behind a GM desk and not a commentator's desk. He's guessing just like the rest of us.

Terrance Mathis thinks he's smart enough to be a GM and actually wants to be one.  Maybe Jamie and Terrence know more NFL players and not enough NFL executives, ie "Wrong Connections"

Until Mathis and Dukes actually gets hired as GMs, then I'll take what they say more seriously.

Until then, their opinions are no better than mine or anyone's else's are.

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grendel (3/22/2008)
rollow lawson (3/22/2008)
grendel (3/22/2008)
I'd rather have calm, cool, and collected professionals rather than hotheaded and inconsistent guys.

Where are they? Name them that are currently on the team.

Brooking, Boley, Abraham, Weiner, Redman (doesn't seem to get flustered)... Some of the rookies looked good in this regard, but they need more time to prove it.

Brooking: but can he play

Boley: I agree

Abraham: wasn't called a professional in NY when he wanted his money; how soon we forget

Weiner:  ok, but always injured (Kinda like Coleman???)

Redman: Don't know how to respond to this one!!

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trubirdfan4life (3/22/2008)
well this is my take.

I think that we got rid of guys who have been good for us in the past, but when we needed them the most, last year, they didn't show up and lead the team to wins. IMO the front office says that we can get that same prduction from bargain free agents and draft picks. Meanwhile, we will stock the team with good to great draft picks that can elevate the play of the team over time. The philosophy of the team has changed. We no longer are looking for splash players, but solid guys that you can depend on. When we get our lines taken care of, we will be able to see the abilities of skill players even more. It will take 2 or 3 years for us to get ALL the linemen and linebackers we need to compete at a high level consistantly.

It really would have made no sense to keep all of the high price guys that would be at retirement by the time we get our team built because their cap number would make us take even longer to get the talent into the fold that will take us to the next level.

we can get 4 or 5 impact guys this year as the draft stands right now(if we make the right choices)

Thats another thing he didn't draft for the Pats he scouted players and gave opinions, that being the reason he jumped at an opportunity to be a GM. Pioli and Billicheat made draft day picks. Pioli did say in Dimitroff's spare time he practiced becoming a GM but what does that translate to?

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bulldogfalcon (3/22/2008)
trubirdfan4life (3/22/2008)
well this is my take.

I think that we got rid of guys who have been good for us in the past, but when we needed them the most, last year, they didn't show up and lead the team to wins. IMO the front office says that we can get that same prduction from bargain free agents and draft picks. Meanwhile, we will stock the team with good to great draft picks that can elevate the play of the team over time. The philosophy of the team has changed. We no longer are looking for splash players, but solid guys that you can depend on. When we get our lines taken care of, we will be able to see the abilities of skill players even more. It will take 2 or 3 years for us to get ALL the linemen and linebackers we need to compete at a high level consistantly.

It really would have made no sense to keep all of the high price guys that would be at retirement by the time we get our team built because their cap number would make us take even longer to get the talent into the fold that will take us to the next level.

we can get 4 or 5 impact guys this year as the draft stands right now(if we make the right choices)

Thats another thing he didn't draft for the Pats he scouted players and gave opinions, that being the reason he jumped at an opportunity to be a GM. Pioli and Billicheat made draft day picks. Pioli did say in Dimitroff's spare time he practiced becoming a GM but what does that translate to?

A person who has some pretty **** good job training. That's what it usually equates out to.

I'm pretty sure Pioli didn't start out as or was born a GM and I'm sure he had some input from Belichek just as TD will have input from Coach Smith.

It's sounds as if you're wanting to believe the worst. Oh well.

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im gonna agree that we are going "safe", but I dont have a problem with this as of now. 

we have a totally different coaching and scouting staff than before.  they just want their own guys.  this is good because it signifies a new direction and a fresh start.

these "safe" guys are what we will build our core around.  consistency and will.  players that know how to play and want to play football.

after we've established consistency, we'll be able to bring in "fire" guys.  but right now, we have to focus on getting back on track and this new direction we're trying to head into.

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bulldogfalcon (3/22/2008)
I was just watching Jamie Dukes and another guy on NFL Network talking about the state of our franchise and Jamie said we have traded away and released all of our "fire" guys like Alge, Deangelo, and Rod. The other guy stated that our new coach is a "safe" coach and the new GM is safe and they want "safe" players on the team. Jamie replied safe doesn't equal winning so how am I supposed to believe that the guys we sign and draft will make us a winning franchise? I like Turner but outside of him who do we have on this team that is franchise making? Also how can we win with next to nothing in talent I can name on one hand the decent to good talent we have. Don't confuse my frustration for wanting to abandon this team, I just want someone who is great at reasoning and debating to put together an analysis on why we can be a great team.

Thanks in advance

The bottomline is that we will know a lot more about these moves after the draft.

Let's face it, we're giving the new guy the benefit of the doubt solely because of the organization that he came from in New England and the success that they have had.

If this is a poorly picked draft, then we'll know a whole lot more about what type of hands we're in and you should feel a lot less confident about all the other moves that have been made so far

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Statick (3/22/2008)
bulldogfalcon (3/22/2008)
trubirdfan4life (3/22/2008)
well this is my take.

I think that we got rid of guys who have been good for us in the past, but when we needed them the most, last year, they didn't show up and lead the team to wins. IMO the front office says that we can get that same prduction from bargain free agents and draft picks. Meanwhile, we will stock the team with good to great draft picks that can elevate the play of the team over time. The philosophy of the team has changed. We no longer are looking for splash players, but solid guys that you can depend on. When we get our lines taken care of, we will be able to see the abilities of skill players even more. It will take 2 or 3 years for us to get ALL the linemen and linebackers we need to compete at a high level consistantly.

It really would have made no sense to keep all of the high price guys that would be at retirement by the time we get our team built because their cap number would make us take even longer to get the talent into the fold that will take us to the next level.

we can get 4 or 5 impact guys this year as the draft stands right now(if we make the right choices)

Thats another thing he didn't draft for the Pats he scouted players and gave opinions, that being the reason he jumped at an opportunity to be a GM. Pioli and Billicheat made draft day picks. Pioli did say in Dimitroff's spare time he practiced becoming a GM but what does that translate to?

A person who has some pretty damngood job training. That's what it usually equates out to.

I'm pretty sure Pioli didn't start out as or was born a GM and I'm sure he had some input from Belichek just as TD will have input from Coach Smith.

It's sounds as if you're wanting to believe the worst. Oh well.

I give everyone the benefit of the doubt. So I guess we will just have to sit back and hope for the best. Statick I appreciate your input brother alongside everyone else who has contributed.

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JDaveG (3/22/2008)Crumpler and Coleman were good, solid, day-in, day-out contributors who played all out all the time.  Both were released because their production for the $$$ was just not there anymore.

But Keith Brooking's production for the $$$ is good enough? Crumpler, Hall, and Boley were the only three who seemed to show any emotion on the football field.

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bulldogfalcon (3/22/2008)
I was just watching Jamie Dukes and another guy on NFL Network talking about the state of our franchise and Jamie said we have traded away and released all of our "fire" guys like Alge, Deangelo, and Rod. The other guy stated that our new coach is a "safe" coach and the new GM is safe and they want "safe" players on the team. Jamie replied safe doesn't equal winning so how am I supposed to believe that the guys we sign and draft will make us a winning franchise? I like Turner but outside of him who do we have on this team that is franchise making? Also how can we win with next to nothing in talent I can name on one hand the decent to good talent we have. Don't confuse my frustration for wanting to abandon this team, I just want someone who is great at reasoning and debating to put together an analysis on why we can be a great team.

Thanks in advance

Okay I'm going to do my best to convince you right here. This is long, but I think it's a decent theory so please read and let me know what you think. IMO when you see us cutting our "fire guys" it's okay to include D Hall. But Coleman (who I loved on our team at one time) has suffered enough injuries that his pay was too high to risk keeping him. Same thing with Crumpler IMO. Plus Crumpler had really begun to have a bit of an attitude problem IMO.

But the Hall situation is different and I think it was more vital to get him out of here than the other players. Obviously he's much younger and healthier than Coleman and Crump, but he was also much more volatile and prone to explosions.

In my opinion, when you have a very weak team without any strong leaders it's easy for the "hot headed, me first" guys to dominate the personality of the team and cause huge disruptions. Once that happens, the team will spiral out of control. But once you can get a group of established, vocal leaders on your team you can then take a chance on some of the risky players who might be a little bit of a problem. You notice that Dallas and New England are supposed to be intrested in getting Pacman. Both of those teams already have strong leadership; especially the Pats. So there is no way a problem child player will come in there and be a disruption. The team leaders will not allow it to happen. They will police themselves and bring the guy back in line.

IMO once we get some strong, vocal leaders on this team then we might be able to take a talented, but risky player because our leaders will not allow that person to cause any problems. But until we have those leaders in place we shouldn't even consider risking it. Brooking, while a Falcon thru and thru has never been a real leader on the team. I don't believe we have had a good leader here in years. Once we fix that then we can afford to take some chances to get ourselves "over the top". Until then, we have to avoid those high risk players.

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rollow lawson (3/22/2008)
bulldogfalcon (3/22/2008)
I was just watching Jamie Dukes and another guy on NFL Network talking about the state of our franchise and Jamie said we have traded away and released all of our "fire" guys like Alge, Deangelo, and Rod. The other guy stated that our new coach is a "safe" coach and the new GM is safe and they want "safe" players on the team. Jamie replied safe doesn't equal winning so how am I supposed to believe that the guys we sign and draft will make us a winning franchise? I like Turner but outside of him who do we have on this team that is franchise making? Also how can we win with next to nothing in talent I can name on one hand the decent to good talent we have. Don't confuse my frustration for wanting to abandon this team, I just want someone who is great at reasoning and debating to put together an analysis on why we can be a great team.

Thanks in advance

This is one of the best discussion/thought provoking posts I have seen in a while.  I have been saying the exact same thing that Jamie touched on.  WTF does "safe" mean.  It sure doesn't exactly mean winning.  Like I said before, AB is trying to build a Fortune 500 company and not a winning NFL Football Team.  Good Post dude.  I applaud you.  Let the FOOTBALL discussion begin.

"Safe" means team players, e.g. like Patriots, Colts, GB have. Look at what they've done. The Giants went to the SB after getting rid of Barber. Look at most of the losing teams. They have "ME" player attitudes. TD wants to build a team chemistry not break it down.

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