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Hillary and Romney...flip-floppers or reasoned changes in beliefs?


Ramen
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Hillary favored the war during the early stages, voted for continued funding for the war, and then became anti-war once the violence started to get out of hand.

Romney favored a woman's right to choose, defended legal abortions until at least 2002, and then became pro-life around the time he started considering a presidential bid.

Are they both flip-floppers? Did they both have a reasoned, considered change in beliefs?

How do we distinguish a "flip-flopper" from someone who is open to changing their beliefs in response to new evidence or a stronger argument?

Where is the line between being overly rigid in one's belief and being wishy-washy and not having any core values?

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Ramen (1/19/2008)
Hillary favored the war during the early stages, voted for continued funding for the war, and then became anti-war once the violence started to get out of hand.

Romney favored a woman's right to choose, defended legal abortions until at least 2002, and then became pro-life around the time he started considering a presidential bid.

Are they both flip-floppers? Did they both have a reasoned, considered change in beliefs?

How do we distinguish a "flip-flopper" from someone who is open to changing their beliefs in response to new evidence or a stronger argument?

Where is the line between being overly rigid in one's belief and being wishy-washy and not having any core values?

Hilliary=flip-flopper,she flip-flops every 5mins..

Romney=flip-flopper

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Ramen (1/19/2008)
savwboy savwboy (1/19/2008)

Hilliary=flip-flopper,she flip-flops every 5mins..

Romney=flip-flopper

So anytime somebody changes their views on an issue they are a flip-flopper?

I would not say everytime , but if you are an consistant bag of polls , as Hilliary is , then yea!!

Romney changed his position for political reasons for this very election..Do you think he decided to run POTUS in the last year?

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So both Romney and Hillary are flip-floppers. Now comes the $24,000 question...

If the election were between Obama and Romney, do you go with the guy that you disagree with but know where he stands versus the flip-flopper who may or may not make good on his promises?

Better the devil you know than the devil you don't?

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Ramen (1/19/2008)
So both Romney and Hillary are flip-floppers. Now comes the $24,000 question...

If the election were between Obama and Romney, do you go with the guy that you disagree with but know where he stands versus the flip-flopper who may or may not make good on his promises?

Better the devil you know than the devil you don't?

Easily answered..

I would vote for neither..You know , stand up for what I believe..

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Steve_Bartkowski (1/19/2008)
Ramen (1/19/2008)
So both Romney and Hillary are flip-floppers. Now comes the $24,000 question...

If the election were between Obama and Romney, do you go with the guy that you disagree with but know where he stands versus the flip-flopper who may or may not make good on his promises?

I'll take Romney over the socialist.

How do you know Romney isn't a socialist?

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Steve_Bartkowski (1/19/2008)
Ramen (1/19/2008)
So both Romney and Hillary are flip-floppers. Now comes the $24,000 question...

If the election were between Obama and Romney, do you go with the guy that you disagree with but know where he stands versus the flip-flopper who may or may not make good on his promises?

I'll take Romney over the socialist.

Because he is just a little less socialist?

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Ramen (1/19/2008)
Steve_Bartkowski (1/19/2008)
Ramen (1/19/2008)
So both Romney and Hillary are flip-floppers. Now comes the $24,000 question...

If the election were between Obama and Romney, do you go with the guy that you disagree with but know where he stands versus the flip-flopper who may or may not make good on his promises?

I'll take Romney over the socialist.

How do you know Romney isn't a socialist?

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It's understandable and IMO quite prefferable (sp) that people change their views over time. It shows that people are always learning and investigating what is right in their mind.

I completely understand how Hillary could support the war through the various steps and then have a change of heart based on things she might have learned in the interim. I feel like we we fooled into this war by an administration that was intent on invading Irag no matter what the real evidence was concerning WMD. I disagree with pulling the troops out immediately but I can see how she has come to that conclusion.

With Romney I can see how you would change your views on abortion as you matured and began to see the world more as a whole as opposed to just your tiny little part of it.

But one does have to wonder if these particular candidates have changed their stance to curry favor with the voters or if they have had legitimate changes of heart. I do know that even as a person who would call himself more of a Dem. I found John Kerry to be one of the most idiotic candidates I ever saw. I don't think that ##### could come up with a solid stance even if you let him plant his feet in newly poured concrete.

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you can't make an informed decision on if they are flip-floppers just by looking at the one issue. I used to be pro-life, but have changed my stance somewhat. I am against it, but feel that the only time my input is relevant is if the baby is mine. So I have changed my opinion somewhat on that.

If you want to determine if they are flip-floppers, you need to look at their behavior overall. Based on that, I would definitely call Hillary one. Romney, I don't know enough about to make that judgement

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Steve_Bartkowski (1/20/2008)
Ramen (1/19/2008)
Steve_Bartkowski (1/19/2008)
Ramen (1/19/2008)
So both Romney and Hillary are flip-floppers. Now comes the $24,000 question...

If the election were between Obama and Romney, do you go with the guy that you disagree with but know where he stands versus the flip-flopper who may or may not make good on his promises?

I'll take Romney over the socialist.

How do you know Romney isn't a socialist?

If the point of this thread is to try to convince me to vote for Obama, you have a better chance of convincing me to yank my finernails and toenails out with a pair of pliers.

The point of this thread is to generate some thought about candidates and their changing policy positions. Don't read into it things that aren't there.

One of the things i'm curious about is whether people give more weight to specific policy positions or to a candidate's trustworthiness. Do you want somebody who tells you what you want to hear to get into office but may not enact those policies, or somebody who tells you where he/she stands and will make good on his/her promises?

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Steve_Bartkowski (1/20/2008)

When picking a candidate I look at at:

1. Positions on the issues (this is the most important)

2. Everything else (not as important)

If there are candidates that have similar positions I'll use #2 to break the tie.

Do you just rely on what the candidates say their positions on an issue are and trust that they aren't lying to you? How do you know that they'll support the policies they promise once they get into office?

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Ramen (1/19/2008)
Hillary favored the war during the early stages, voted for continued funding for the war, and then became anti-war once the violence started to get out of hand.

Romney favored a woman's right to choose, defended legal abortions until at least 2002, and then became pro-life around the time he started considering a presidential bid.

Are they both flip-floppers? Did they both have a reasoned, considered change in beliefs?

How do we distinguish a "flip-flopper" from someone who is open to changing their beliefs in response to new evidence or a stronger argument?

There isn't a bright line to tell us one from the other, but I instinctively distrust people who change their positions on issues when moving from receiving votes from a statewide electorate to a nationwide electorate. Good examples of this abound, but Romney, H. Clinton and Gore are three of the most eggregious examples I've seen in a while, with Gore being BY FAR the worst in both scope and effect. He didn't just flip-flop, he became a loud advocate for the opposite positions from those he took while trying to get votes from Tennesseeans, denouncing those who agreed with the poor saps who put him in the Senate to begin with.

So as to your question, Romney and Clinton are...

canvas-upper-aeropostale-flip-flops.jpg

As to your follow-up -- what to do if Romney is on the ticket with Obama? I go with those who say "vote third party." I LIKE Obama, and I TRUST Obama. The problem is, I trust him to do things I vehemently disagree with. Still, I'm pretty sure I could not give my vote to Romney either, because I distrust him. We'll see how the campaign progresses. Frankly, I don't think he'll get the nomination anyway. He should have made a stronger attempt in South Carolina to siphon votes from McCain, because a Huckabee win in South Carolina helps Romney. Now, McCain has momentum, and I'll never hear the end of it from Holy Moses.

One more reason to vote against Romney.

FWIW, this is the exact situation I found myself in in 2004, when I voted for Michael Badnarik for President, and in 1992 when I voted for Andre Marrou. I have a bad habit of trusting Bushes for 1 term and then waking up.

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