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Does the Constitution apply to non-citizens? Do detainees in Gitmo have the same rights as US citizens?


Ramen
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how unreasonable would it be. they are being detained and have very few possessions so the search thing is not that much of an issue i would expect. but either way, they have human rights, but not rights as a US citizen...unless they are a citizen and are getrting screwed.

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3073 (12/11/2007)
how unreasonable would it be. they are being detained and have very few possessions so the search thing is not that much of an issue i would expect. but either way, they have human rights, but not rights as a US citizen...unless they are a citizen and are getrting screwed.

Then how come a fetus still in the womb, which is not legally a US citizen, is said to have the same rights as other US citizens?

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3073 (12/11/2007)
Ramen (12/11/2007)

Then how come a fetus still in the womb, which is not legally a US citizen, is said to have the same rights as other US citizens?

thats a different debate that i dont have a stance on.

I don't think it's a different debate at all. Either the Constitution applies to non-US citizens or it does not. If it does not, then it does not apply to fetuses.

I think the problem is that people don't think about politics as interrelated. They compartmentalize their opinions (e.g., this is what Rush told me to think about abortion and this is what Hannity told me to think about Gitmo) without understanding that there is a common, underlying system that relates both policies. We can't ignore the Constitution when it's convenient for our personal opinions.

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Ramen (12/11/2007)

Then how come a fetus still in the womb, which is not legally a US citizen, is said to have the same rights as other US citizens?

The key to this question would be "which is not legally a US citizen.

Just to play Devil's Advocate, Pro-Lifers would argue that it is indeed a US citizen, because it becomes a human life at a very early stage. And if I am not mistaken, any child born in the U.S. is a U.S. citizen, or something like that? If that is the case, I seriously doubt the law goes into the extent of what "born" means, and could qualify as any child, or fetus, that has been given "life", would be a U.S. citizen.

Like I said, just to play Devil's Advocate, take it or leave it, I could be wrong.

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L.Rover (12/11/2007)
Ramen (12/11/2007)

Then how come a fetus still in the womb, which is not legally a US citizen, is said to have the same rights as other US citizens?

The key to this question would be "which is not legally a US citizen.

Just to play Devil's Advocate, Pro-Lifers would argue that it is indeed a US citizen, because it becomes a human life at a very early stage. And if I am not mistaken, any child born in the U.S. is a U.S. citizen, or something like that? If that is the case, I seriously doubt the law goes into the extent of what "born" means, and could qualify as any child, or fetus, that has been given "life", would be a U.S. citizen.

Like I said, just to play Devil's Advocate, take it or leave it, I could be wrong.

Interesting thoughts. Is a child that is conceived in Mexico but born in the US a citizen? I believe it is, which means that "born" means the physical act of being born.

They don't give social security numbers to fetuses.

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Ramen (12/11/2007)

Interesting thoughts. Is a child that is conceived in Mexico but born in the US a citizen? I believe it is, which means that "born" means the physical act of being born.

They don't give social security numbers to fetuses.

But on that logic, would a child who was born, but (unfortunately) died within one week, be given a SSN? Probably not, but the child was "born".

These are the technicalities that both sides call into play.

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Ramen (12/11/2007)
3073 (12/11/2007)
how unreasonable would it be. they are being detained and have very few possessions so the search thing is not that much of an issue i would expect. but either way, they have human rights, but not rights as a US citizen...unless they are a citizen and are getrting screwed.

Then how come a fetus still in the womb, which is not legally a US citizen, is said to have the same rights as other US citizens?

What does a fetus having the same rights as a US citizen have to do with the abortion debate??

Is it legal to murder a non-US citizen in our borders??

Unless I am mistaken, and it actually IS legal, then I don't see how this argument is relevant at all to abortion.

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jdu00743 (12/11/2007)
Ramen (12/11/2007)
3073 (12/11/2007)
how unreasonable would it be. they are being detained and have very few possessions so the search thing is not that much of an issue i would expect. but either way, they have human rights, but not rights as a US citizen...unless they are a citizen and are getrting screwed.

Then how come a fetus still in the womb, which is not legally a US citizen, is said to have the same rights as other US citizens?

What does a fetus having the same rights as a US citizen have to do with the abortion debate??

Is it legal to murder a non-US citizen in our borders??

Unless I am mistaken, and it actually IS legal, then I don't see how this argument is relevant at all to abortion.

Why do you think BIRTH was set as the primary determination of citizenship?

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Ramen (12/11/2007)
jdu00743 (12/11/2007)
Ramen (12/11/2007)
3073 (12/11/2007)
how unreasonable would it be. they are being detained and have very few possessions so the search thing is not that much of an issue i would expect. but either way, they have human rights, but not rights as a US citizen...unless they are a citizen and are getrting screwed.

Then how come a fetus still in the womb, which is not legally a US citizen, is said to have the same rights as other US citizens?

What does a fetus having the same rights as a US citizen have to do with the abortion debate??

Is it legal to murder a non-US citizen in our borders??

Unless I am mistaken, and it actually IS legal, then I don't see how this argument is relevant at all to abortion.

Why do you think BIRTH was set as the primary determination of citizenship?

Once again, does citizenship make any difference whatsoever when we are talking about murder??

Doesn't matter if it's a citizen or not, murder is still illegal.

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jdu00743 (12/11/2007)

Once again, does citizenship make any difference whatsoever when we are talking about murder??

Doesn't matter if it's a citizen or not, murder is still illegal.

Yes, it matters. I suspect you realize this and you're dodging the fundamental point, which is that there is nothing inherent about possessing human DNA that gives people certain rights. Rights (life, liberty, pursuit of happiness) are grounded in something else.

You seem to want to dodge stating precisely what that "something else" is, perhaps because you know it will undermine your argument.

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Ramen (12/11/2007)
jdu00743 (12/11/2007)

Once again, does citizenship make any difference whatsoever when we are talking about murder??

Doesn't matter if it's a citizen or not, murder is still illegal.

Yes, it matters. I suspect you realize this and you're dodging the fundamental point, which is that there is nothing inherent about possessing human DNA that gives people certain rights. Rights (life, liberty, pursuit of happiness) are grounded in something else.

You seem to want to dodge stating precisely what that "something else" is, perhaps because you know it will undermine your argument.

Being completely and 100% honest, I really don't know what you're referring to.

The constitution does NOT apply to non-citizens...Fetuses are NOT US citizens.

However, I'm failing to see how that is relevant in any way whatsoever to the abortion debate, because unless it is legal to murder non-citizens inside US borders, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

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jdu00743 (12/11/2007)

The constitution does NOT apply to non-citizens...Fetuses are NOT US citizens.

Once again, I am going to jump in and play Devil's Advocate, and quote above is not a fact. That is a part of Pro-Life debate, that a "fetus" is a "life", and therefore, in the U.S., would be considered a "U.S. Citizen"

(I put quotes around these terms because between the Pro-Choice & Pro-Life camps, their definitions are subjective)

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L.Rover (12/11/2007)
jdu00743 (12/11/2007)

The constitution does NOT apply to non-citizens...Fetuses are NOT US citizens.

Once again, I am going to jump in and play Devil's Advocate, and quote above is not a fact. That is a part of Pro-Life debate, that a "fetus" is a "life", and therefore, in the U.S., would be considered a "U.S. Citizen"

(I put quotes around these terms because between the Pro-Choice & Pro-Life camps, their definitions are subjective)

I wasn't agreeing with him...I was just pointing out that even if he is right and fetuses are NOT US citizens, it doesn't make a single bit of a difference when you're talking about murder.

It is just as illegal.

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jdu00743 (12/11/2007)

I wasn't agreeing with him...I was just pointing out that even if he is right and fetuses are NOT US citizens, it doesn't make a single bit of a difference when you're talking about murder.

It is just as illegal.

gotcha.

He doesn't have a really valid point here. Comparing Prisoners' rights to abortion doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. I can see attempts at an argument along the lines of "we should have equal human rights across the board", but even then it isn't a strong argument, and he certainly isn't addressing it properly.

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jdu00743 (12/11/2007)

Being completely and 100% honest, I really don't know what you're referring to.

The constitution does NOT apply to non-citizens...Fetuses are NOT US citizens.

However, I'm failing to see how that is relevant in any way whatsoever to the abortion debate, because unless it is legal to murder non-citizens inside US borders, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

You keep repeating the same line over and over again, as though repetition makes you more correct.

The question is WHY (note the capital letters for emphasis) physical birth was made the requirement for citizenship and thus qualification for basic fundamental rights. You emphasized in another thread that fetuses have human DNA...WHY does possessing human DNA provide someone with basic rights such as life and liberty?

Think about it instead of simply repeating the same line.

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octoslash (12/11/2007)

Against abortion?

DON'T HAVE ONE

My feelings on abortion are simple: I am Pro-choice, but anti-abortion. I don't believe that abortion is the right thing to do, but if we make it illegal, we will create a larger set of problems. Who am I to tell someone else how to believe?

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Is this a debate about the Constitution or abortion?

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Sounds to me like the Constitution was created solely for the citizens of the US.

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