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Knight of God

My Most Honest Take On Our OL

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Have to be honest. I am impressed by what we have so far. The ZBS Shanahan runs is pretty simple for OL. Even a subpar OL will look average. The problem is Shanahan is gone. We have Sark and that's not not a far cry, but still.

So when I say Lamp is mediocre, when anyone says that. Really the convoys is on MBS. Its a bit more challenging and while it can turn a DL into mush, it takes a special type of lineman. ZBS, as I was taught, varies. It depends on the system itself. Really ZBS is more about the run blocking which STILL sets the pass. Keeps a defense honest. Our former OC had a system that could in fact utilize below avg linemen and make them look at least avg. Not sure about the new.

So an avg lineman is going to be king. In this case we have Lamp. Great foot quickness and upper body strength. Controlled intensity. Low ceiling, high floor. Would definitely make our OL one of the deadliest.

The issue isn't Lamp. I tease quite a bit when my agenda is evident. He is NOT a bad choice and won't suck. In fact low ceiling and high floor OL are the guys who make the Pro Bowl. Sometimes end up with 90's on Madden. This isn't a Konz issue. This is a misunderstanding of our issues conversation.

There is an ugly disrespect and disregard to the defense. The same individuals who want "just a guy" defensive players are the same ones who complain that the defense is mediocre. We only have X amount of playmaker, but when draft day comes, every year, the same ones want OL and cry about the trenches.

I respect that. The game DOES begin in the trenches. But if you have a 100% OL and Osweiler as your QB and Trent Richardson as your runningback, you are in BIG trouble. Just because something starts somewhere, doesn't mean you overlook what needs to be done.

I was taught young about defense and it was taught again this year and last year in a scouting workshop. Your defense will struggle no matter the system if you don't have above average at three positions. DT, edge, and FS. It is hard to win a game if you can't disrupt the interior, force a QB from the edge, spy the centerfield. Better QBs with good short games will pick you apart without all three working, or you have to control the ball. On offense, its all about system 100% of the time. Brady is in a system that can make a back-up look like a first rounder. So Brady obviously can destroy you if your defense is incomplete.

If we take Lamp, I will figure we have other things going on. If we pass on FS, all eyes will be on Allen this year. If edge is passed on we may not have the success. Deep draft doesn't always mean what it sounds like. When there are a lot of playmakers the run can start pretty early. Trading back is asking for lesser talent, more avg is just more avg. Coaching is awesome, but they still have to have game. Quinn is not controlling the players on a D-Pad.

Hopefully we make some moves that help the team. A lot of you guys calling for Lamp were thrilled with Wes last year. I don't know what that means. Poe is good, but he is not going to turn TK or Allen into superstars. He had Berry and three edge rushers in KC.

 

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 Man this team really turned it around last year. I was surprised we went as far as we did with our defense.

Poe is a great signing. Now let's get him some help! I don't think Lamp is the pick at all.

I really want Evans in the first but who does that leave us at pass rush? Maybe we can go pass rush first and move up for the hardest hitting safety in the draft in the second? I sure don't want to hang my hat on Hall or Kpass. 

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5 minutes ago, James Bond 007 said:

 Man this team really turned it around last year. I was surprised we went as far as we did with our defense.

Poe is a great signing. Now let's get him some help! I don't think Lamp is the pick at all.

I really want Evans in the first but who does that leave us at pass rush? Maybe we can go pass rush first and move up for the hardest hitting safety in the draft in the second? I sure don't want to hang my hat on Hall or Kpass. 

I agree 100%

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We need to fill a need at RG.  We currently have Thornton, Schweitzer and Garland.  At this point, I don't know that I can trust any of them to play at a high level or, in the case of Thornton, last an entire season. 

The question is whether we need to draft Lamp in the first round to cover the pressing need.  My guess is NO.  

The OP has correctly stated that OL classes are usually judged from the standpoint of the classic MBS type.  Of course, we don't need a MBS blocker, we are a ZBS offense.  So, what we need to do is evaluate this draft's OL prospects from that point of view.  To my eyes, this draft is actually not bad.  

Deion Dawkins, Dan Feeney, Dorian Jordan, Isaac Asiata, Ethan Pocic, Taylor Moton, Jordan Morgan, and Danny Isidora all have the capacity to start at RG at some point this season.  We could start Thornton at RG and develop any of the above guys (or Wes) quick enough to install them when Thornton goes down.  

So, basically, we don't NEED Lamp.  What we need to do is draft two OL's at some point.  One to cover the need at OG and the other to provide depth at OT.  

We can devote our first pick to the defense.  

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Posted (edited)

I do prefer to continue to grow on Defense I have a few guys on my personal list that I would take over Lamp and I doubt he's there at 31 but if these guys aren't around then and he is I think the wise and best long-term is to take him for Guard with 31st pick he will be a quality long-term starter it seems and rather Wes wins the RG spot or not this year we may need another Guard in a year or 2 as well so best player available and a position of need. But I would take these guys over him though if had choice. B. Baker, H.Reddick, T.J. Watt, Derek Barnett, T.Mckinnely are guys I probably would take over Lamp if they there.

Edited by malak07

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One misconception is that a ZBS means you can take a mediocre Guard or OT and he'll be fine.

What it actually means is you can take a good pass protector, who is a mediocre run blocker, and then he'll be fine.  You don't have to get the guy who is great at both.  We all know great all around players go really early in the draft, and one dimensional players go later.  The ZBS lets you take that later guy who needs work on run blocking.

But if he can't pass protect, you're cooked.  The scheme isn't going to change that.

 

As to the RG issue, we need one definitely, but I don't know if he has to be a first rounder.  I'd lean toward a 3rd or 4th round OT convert myself...someone who can likely pass block pretty well for an OG, and then you teach him the run blocking in the scheme.

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How is Lamp low ceiling? He is one of the most athletic linemen in the draft, if not most. "Ceiling" refers to athleticism. The knock on him is height and arm length. He is 6'4 with 32 inch arms and 309. Cam Robinson is 6'6 with 35 inch arms in length and he is 322 pounds. Forest is considered "smallish" and Cam's size is considered "outstanding". I could see if size would be an issue since it correlates to strength, but in this case it doesn't. 13 Pounds is not going to make that much of a difference when you are that big. The bigger someone is it will take more weight to make a difference.

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Safety and Edge are deep. O line picks are hyped and overrated. Baker or Evans makes the Machine work. Rivers makes it hum. No need to take an overrated Oline pick in 1st. 

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6 minutes ago, Intellectually Honest said:

How is Lamp low ceiling? He is one of the most athletic linemen in the draft, if not most. "Ceiling" refers to athleticism. The knock on him is height and arm length. He is 6'4 with 32 inch arms and 309. Cam Robinson is 6'6 with 35 inch arms in length and he is 322 pounds. Forest is considered "smallish" and Cam's size is considered "outstanding". I could see if size would be an issue since it correlates to strength, but in this case it doesn't. 13 Pounds is not going to make that much of a difference when you are that big. The bigger someone is it will take more weight to make a difference.

Think it's mostly the arm length.  If Lamp had 34" arms, he'd be considered a good sized guard.

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If Lamp makes it to 31 he is our pick. Bank on that. If he's not, look 4 a trade back if there are 3 or so pass rushers on the Falcons board. One of our first two picks will be OL. Get use to it. 

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Posted (edited)

7 minutes ago, takeitdown said:

Think it's mostly the arm length.  If Lamp had 34" arms, he'd be considered a good sized guard.

3 inches longer arms is not going to make a difference especially if the OT has the agility to move around in the first place. This is what I don't get about how they evaluate OT vs guards. Considering how DEs tend to be faster, more agile, and smaller than DTs, you would expect your OT to be able to handle the speed, which is their backstep to keep up with the rush. Now obviously all OL handle the run and pass, but the main brute strength of an DL is coming up the middle. OTs are generally evaluated how well they handle in space, and that is why the most athletic among them play OT and the stronger but slower of them play guard. My point is that size would be more of a issue when playing guard than OT, but what is weird is scouts want the tackles to me taller and longer than guards, which would generally offset athleticism since shorter guys who are lighter generally move faster and are more agile.

Edited by Intellectually Honest

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3 minutes ago, Intellectually Honest said:

3 inches longer arms is not going to make a difference especially if the OT has the agility to move around in the first place. This is what I don't get about how they evaluate OT vs guards. Considering how DEs tend to be faster, more agile, and smaller than DTs, you would expect your OT to be able to handle the speed, which is their backstep to keep up with the rush. Now obviously all OL handle the run and pass, but the main brute strength of an DL is coming up the middle. OTs are generally evaluated how well they handle in space, and that is why the most athletic among them play OT and the stronger but slower of them play guard. My point is that size would be more of a issue when playing guard than OT, but what is weird is scouts want the tackles to me taller and longer than guards, which would generally offset athleticism since shorter guys who are lighter generally move faster and are more agile.

 

Understand the reasoning.  I think you'd prefer all your OL to have longer arms.  They don't have to be 36", but in the 34 range.

At OT, they're willing to trade off some actual athleticism for someone who can get a punch in, someone who keeps the DE from being able to make a bunch of different moves because he simply can't get his hands on the OT due to a reach disadvantage.  That gets rid of the bull rush option, and means you really just have to defend the outside rush, making your job easier.  If the DE can't redirect because you can keep your long arms on him, then he ability to use his athleticism differential is negated.  And the other part is, until recently interior OL was considered more of a run blocking unit, and the OT's pass protectors.  You don't require the long arms as much in run blocking.

But we've seen lately (it's always been around, but more prevalent lately) teams using their better rushers against these interior guys who might be short armed or in general not equipped to pass protect against athletes.

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I like Doriah Johnson not sure where he will be going in the Draft but in 2nd or 3rd round especially if we do trade back and get more picks I would be interested in him almost perfect ZB guard and strong on run and pass with plenty of playing experience

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5 hours ago, Knight of God said:

Have to be honest. I am impressed by what we have so far. The ZBS Shanahan runs is pretty simple for OL. Even a subpar OL will look average. The problem is Shanahan is gone. We have Sark and that's not not a far cry, but still.

So when I say Lamp is mediocre, when anyone says that. Really the convoys is on MBS. Its a bit more challenging and while it can turn a DL into mush, it takes a special type of lineman. ZBS, as I was taught, varies. It depends on the system itself. Really ZBS is more about the run blocking which STILL sets the pass. Keeps a defense honest. Our former OC had a system that could in fact utilize below avg linemen and make them look at least avg. Not sure about the new.

So an avg lineman is going to be king. In this case we have Lamp. Great foot quickness and upper body strength. Controlled intensity. Low ceiling, high floor. Would definitely make our OL one of the deadliest.

The issue isn't Lamp. I tease quite a bit when my agenda is evident. He is NOT a bad choice and won't suck. In fact low ceiling and high floor OL are the guys who make the Pro Bowl. Sometimes end up with 90's on Madden. This isn't a Konz issue. This is a misunderstanding of our issues conversation.

There is an ugly disrespect and disregard to the defense. The same individuals who want "just a guy" defensive players are the same ones who complain that the defense is mediocre. We only have X amount of playmaker, but when draft day comes, every year, the same ones want OL and cry about the trenches.

I respect that. The game DOES begin in the trenches. But if you have a 100% OL and Osweiler as your QB and Trent Richardson as your runningback, you are in BIG trouble. Just because something starts somewhere, doesn't mean you overlook what needs to be done.

I was taught young about defense and it was taught again this year and last year in a scouting workshop. Your defense will struggle no matter the system if you don't have above average at three positions. DT, edge, and FS. It is hard to win a game if you can't disrupt the interior, force a QB from the edge, spy the centerfield. Better QBs with good short games will pick you apart without all three working, or you have to control the ball. On offense, its all about system 100% of the time. Brady is in a system that can make a back-up look like a first rounder. So Brady obviously can destroy you if your defense is incomplete.

If we take Lamp, I will figure we have other things going on. If we pass on FS, all eyes will be on Allen this year. If edge is passed on we may not have the success. Deep draft doesn't always mean what it sounds like. When there are a lot of playmakers the run can start pretty early. Trading back is asking for lesser talent, more avg is just more avg. Coaching is awesome, but they still have to have game. Quinn is not controlling the players on a D-Pad.

Hopefully we make some moves that help the team. A lot of you guys calling for Lamp were thrilled with Wes last year. I don't know what that means. Poe is good, but he is not going to turn TK or Allen into superstars. He had Berry and three edge rushers in KC.

 

An easy way to help any defense is clock management. The teams that can keep opposing offenses off the field have the best defenses which can be emulated statistically via long drives. Defense can try to take the offense off the field, but a great methodical offense can prevent the opposing offence to be on the field in the first place. This is why I think the Falcon's D is actually better than we see statistically and the offense is actually worse. The offense can move quickly and put up points, but it sure isn't methodical. We saw that in the Superbowl. 

This year's crop of DEs don't impress me as a group. You have 6 great athletes in it with Garrett, Willis, Rivers, and Henderickson, Kpass and even Keinta Davis. Most of these guys are criticized more not being able to bend or face lesser competition. Garrett is the only one considered to be a topic pick of that subgroup. The others considered top picks are mostly based on who they played, and their size, but are not nearly as good athletes. Only Tak and Williams were seen having great motors. My preference is Jordan Willis, but I am not sure even he is worthy of a first round pick.

The critique of the OTs is that they are deficient in some major way. That most of them are projected to be OG, because they are big and strong, but either not tall enough or athletic enough or just really have bad technique. That being the case, the Falcons need an inside push to block up the middle anyway. Falcons could use multiple linemen, even if they all play inside. My preference is Lamp, Robinson, in the first, and taking Dorian Johnson, Dawkins or Moton in the 2nd. Even if none of these guys are really good starting OTs, they would all make great guards, and backup either OT if needed to. I still like the speed in the passing game, but a more methodical running game would be preferable. Also OL are easier to evaluate and generally are safer picks.

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2 minutes ago, Intellectually Honest said:

An easy way to help any defense is clock management. The teams that can keep opposing offenses off the field have the best defenses which can be emulated statistically via long drives. Defense can try to take the offense off the field, but a great methodical offense can prevent the opposing offence to be on the field in the first place. This is why I think the Falcon's D is actually better than we see statistically and the offense is actually worse. The offense can move quickly and put up points, but it sure isn't methodical. We saw that in the Superbowl. 

This year's crop of DEs don't impress me as a group. You have 6 great athletes in it with Garrett, Willis, Rivers, and Henderickson, Kpass and even Keinta Davis. Most of these guys are criticized more not being able to bend or face lesser competition. Garrett is the only one considered to be a topic pick of that subgroup. The others considered top picks are mostly based on who they played, and their size, but are not nearly as good athletes. Only Tak and Williams were seen having great motors. My preference is Jordan Willis, but I am not sure even he is worthy of a first round pick.

The critique of the OTs is that they are deficient in some major way. That most of them are projected to be OG, because they are big and strong, but either not tall enough or athletic enough or just really have bad technique. That being the case, the Falcons need an inside push to block up the middle anyway. Falcons could use multiple linemen, even if they all play inside. My preference is Lamp, Robinson, in the first, and taking Dorian Johnson, Dawkins or Moton in the 2nd. Even if none of these guys are really good starting OTs, they would all make great guards, and backup either OT if needed to. I still like the speed in the passing game, but a more methodical running game would be preferable. Also OL are easier to evaluate and generally are safer picks.

We have a fast strike offense. You missed my whole long thing though. Missed it. Missed.

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31 minutes ago, Caddieman said:

If Lamp makes it to 31 he is our pick. Bank on that. If he's not, look 4 a trade back if there are 3 or so pass rushers on the Falcons board. One of our first two picks will be OL. Get use to it. 

You didn't read that

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40 minutes ago, Intellectually Honest said:

How is Lamp low ceiling? He is one of the most athletic linemen in the draft, if not most. "Ceiling" refers to athleticism. The knock on him is height and arm length. He is 6'4 with 32 inch arms and 309. Cam Robinson is 6'6 with 35 inch arms in length and he is 322 pounds. Forest is considered "smallish" and Cam's size is considered "outstanding". I could see if size would be an issue since it correlates to strength, but in this case it doesn't. 13 Pounds is not going to make that much of a difference when you are that big. The bigger someone is it will take more weight to make a difference.

Low ceiling doesn't mean what you think it means from a scouting standpoint. You skimmed

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33 minutes ago, takeitdown said:

Think it's mostly the arm length.  If Lamp had 34" arms, he'd be considered a good sized guard.

You could not have read that. I don't care about arm length. Never have.

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15 minutes ago, takeitdown said:

 

Understand the reasoning.  I think you'd prefer all your OL to have longer arms.  They don't have to be 36", but in the 34 range.

At OT, they're willing to trade off some actual athleticism for someone who can get a punch in, someone who keeps the DE from being able to make a bunch of different moves because he simply can't get his hands on the OT due to a reach disadvantage.  That gets rid of the bull rush option, and means you really just have to defend the outside rush, making your job easier.  If the DE can't redirect because you can keep your long arms on him, then he ability to use his athleticism differential is negated.  And the other part is, until recently interior OL was considered more of a run blocking unit, and the OT's pass protectors.  You don't require the long arms as much in run blocking.

But we've seen lately (it's always been around, but more prevalent lately) teams using their better rushers against these interior guys who might be short armed or in general not equipped to pass protect against athletes.

You made a good point. My understandining with DEs is mainly based on their bend, first step and speed to get around the OT. When reading the draft profiles, lack of agility and bend is the main criticism. None of the strengths of a DE were about how well their bullrush is. At best strength was a concern for them to hold up against the run and set the edge. It also seems they were primarily evaluated based on how they would fit in a 4-3 D.

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This could be an odd year in the draft. Usually there seems to be a run on LT's and QB's but this draft lacks quality in both. There could be a run on pass rushers early. That might force the Falcons to make a move or take a G. This team can weather this season with the Gs on roster. Word is next year's draft is deeper on O-Line talent.

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1 minute ago, Intellectually Honest said:

You made a good point. My understandining with DEs is mainly based on their bend, first step and speed to get around the OT. When reading the draft profiles, lack of agility and bend is the main criticism. None of the strengths of a DE were about how well their bullrush is. At best strength was a concern for them to hold up against the run and set the edge. It also seems they were primarily evaluated based on how they would fit in a 4-3 D.

Not just bend. There are plenty of things to look for. There is also dip, pull, punch, and a few others. Bend goes to less than 2% of all pass rushers.

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2 minutes ago, Knight of God said:

Low ceiling doesn't mean what you think it means from a scouting standpoint. You skimmed

Ceiling is potential. Potential is primarily based on athleticism. It could also involve growing into their bodies and taller guys are generally preferable to shorter guys in most positions. That being the case taller guyrs are generally less agile, and slower in general. There are always tradeoffs in life which includes body size.

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Posted (edited)

2 minutes ago, Jesus said:

This could be an odd year in the draft. Usually there seems to be a run on LT's and QB's but this draft lacks quality in both. There could be a run on pass rushers early. That might force the Falcons to make a move or take a G. This team can weather this season with the Gs on roster. Word is next year's draft is deeper on O-Line talent.

I will trust the staff to do what's best if they feel that RG can be adequate filled with what we have I'm good just don't want a repeat of prior year where interior line was crap... But that's why we got Mack, Levitre played better and Chester was not all that great to be honest so don't have far to go to atleast match his level of play

Edited by malak07

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1 minute ago, Knight of God said:

Not just bend. There are plenty of things to look for. There is also dip, pull, punch, and a few others. Bend goes to less than 2% of all pass rushers.

I said main criticism. Not only criticism. What you mentioned is technique. You can teach technique. You can't teach athleticism.

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