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D.B.N.

Voch Lombardi film session: Jordan Willis

131 posts in this topic

23 minutes ago, g-dawg said:

I am going to diagree w/ you here.  Typically those that tackle with little bend - it is not because they "haven't learned" - it is that there body just does not go that way.   They are stiff - to believe what you wrote above, would mean that the high school and Division 1 college coaches are idiots.   It is not that Willis is missing tackles because he doesn't know how to tackle - it's that his body looks stiff - as that is just how some people are made without a lot of natural bend.

 Seems like you just want a super duper Bendy kid like Floyd was last year. How do you feel about Barnett? He's bendy but not very explosive so I'm not that big of a fan. Give me an explosive athlete over a flexible one. Not that flexibility isn't incredibly important but it's less important against the run.

Edited by Colin_Pernett

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6 minutes ago, Colin_Pernett said:

 Seems like you just want a super duper Bendy kid like Floyd was last year. How do you feel about Barnett? He's bendy but not very explosive so I'm not that big of a fan. Give me an explosive athlete over a flexible one.

I don't know but I am tired of arguing it.    If Quinn takes JORDAN WILLIS then I will feel better about it.  I know he has good traits w/ the hand usuage and I know his combine numbers are good and I know the kid is a good kid and he has great work ethic - there is ZERO doubt that this kid has a lot going for him - just wished he was more flexible and just wished his tape matched his combine - worried that we are just drafting a "blah" 4-3 DE that will be a starter but nothing special.

If DQ puts his stamp on him, then - like I said - I will feel much better about it - I just don't see it.

I believe NFL combine numbers is a cross-check on what you see on tape.   On TATF, it seems the spider-web is more important even if the tape is not impressive.    Guess I am too old school.

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24 minutes ago, atlbaby said:

I would love to get Willis just to see the reaction after.

I won't freak out - like I have said ad nauseum, if Dan Quinn ultimately does decide to take Jordan Willis, I will have more confidence in the pick - as DQ has earned that.

My position is - I see a limited passrusher - and personally, if I am going to invest in a DE in the 1st round, he better be a good passrusher.    

So DQ >>>>>>>>g-dawg all day every day when it comes to knowing defensive NFL players and I will defer to his judgement.

 

Until that time, I am expressing my thoughts and - I reserve the right to be wrong.

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3 hours ago, Lornoth said:

I'm not saying they shouldn't have replaced who they did, just that Quinn helped all their tackling. They all had worries that they wouldn't be sound tacklers, I recall TATF worrying about it nonstop between the draft and the preseason. It was never an issue. They didn't just happen to learn how to tackle, it was the coaches that showed them better techniques. 

We both know what TAFT "worries about non-stop" more often than not  is irrelevant to actual reality, They were never bad tacklers to begin with, which was my point. 

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3 hours ago, g-dawg said:

I am going to diagree w/ you here.  Typically those that tackle with little bend - it is not because they "haven't learned" - it is that there body just does not go that way.   They are stiff - to believe what you wrote above, would mean that the high school and Division 1 college coaches are idiots.   It is not that Willis is missing tackles because he doesn't know how to tackle - it's that his body looks stiff - as that is just how some people are made without a lot of natural bend.

Like I said, IF he's athletic. If not, then you can't.

Coaches aren't idiots (mostly), but some teach and some don't. Sometimes you don't need perfect technique in college to win. Willis certainly didn't, looking at his stats. Everybody has things to learn going from college to the NFL, otherwise rookies would play like ten year vets. 

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46 minutes ago, Vandy said:

We both know what TAFT "worries about non-stop" more often than not  is irrelevant to actual reality, They were never bad tacklers to begin with, which was my point. 

True. lol

I'm not sure I agree on the tackling. Debo had some concerning tackling issues as I recall, though tbh I didn't do as much scouting last year as I usually do. 

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19 minutes ago, Lornoth said:

Like I said, IF he's athletic. If not, then you can't.

Coaches aren't idiots (mostly), but some teach and some don't. Sometimes you don't need perfect technique in college to win. Willis certainly didn't, looking at his stats. Everybody has things to learn going from college to the NFL, otherwise rookies would play like ten year vets. 

well to me it is obvious looking at his film that Willis has some stiffness.  Even talent evaluators that like the player acknowledge this issue.

the good and bad of Jordan Willis by Nolan Nawrocki who rates him as #36 overall player in draft - so he likes him:

Weaknesses: Has tightness in his body and lacks hip flexibility to be a dynamic edge rusher.  Not a natural bender and too often relies on pure straight-line power.

Future: Strong, powerful base end with the motor, relentlessness, work ethic and preparation habits to consistently generate power and disrupt backfields.  Though he is not a natural bender eith dynamic passrush skill, Willis will be an extremely  productive pro because of how hard he works at his craft. A power rusher with Day#1 plug and play potential.  Willis will fit best as a left base end in a "40" front and is wired to become a double digit sack producer within a few years.

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5 minutes ago, g-dawg said:

well to me it is obvious looking at his film that Willis has some stiffness.  Even talent evaluators that like the player acknowledge this issue.

the good and bad of Jordan Willis by Nolan Nawrocki who rates him as #36 overall player in draft - so he likes him:

Weaknesses: Has tightness in his body and lacks hip flexibility to be a dynamic edge rusher.  Not a natural bender and too often relies on pure straight-line power.

Future: Strong, powerful base end with the motor, relentlessness, work ethic and preparation habits to consistently generate power and disrupt backfields.  Though he is not a natural bender eith dynamic passrush skill, Willis will be an extremely  productive pro because of how hard he works at his craft. A power rusher with Day#1 plug and play potential.  Willis will fit best as a left base end in a "40" front and is wired to become a double digit sack producer within a few years.

To be clear, I agree with you, he's stiff. He's a base end, though I don't see the problem with that you seem to. I wouldn't want him at 31, I'm just saying I think people are underestimating how much players can learn and improve on in this thread.

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On 4/19/2017 at 1:31 PM, g-dawg said:

I would really like for the "non-alpha" to have his strong trait being "passrush" - not edge setter and good on 1st down.....edge-setter and good on 1st down would not have helped us in the SB.

I feel like Willis motor might have. He gets better as the game goes, while our defense went to **** past the 3rd quarter. 

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45 minutes ago, Lornoth said:

To be clear, I agree with you, he's stiff. He's a base end, though I don't see the problem with that you seem to. I wouldn't want him at 31, I'm just saying I think people are underestimating how much players can learn and improve on in this thread.

I think, if we draft him, I will just need to learn to appreciate Jordan for what he is - a guy that does a lot of the dirty work - not a lot of sacks but helping collapse the pocket on stunts and pushing the pocket.  Maybe he will have a lot of sacks...Nawrocki said in a few years he would be capable.

Who is your NFL comp for Jordan Willis? 

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1 hour ago, g-dawg said:

I think, if we draft him, I will just need to learn to appreciate Jordan for what he is - a guy that does a lot of the dirty work - not a lot of sacks but helping collapse the pocket on stunts and pushing the pocket.  Maybe he will have a lot of sacks...Nawrocki said in a few years he would be capable.

Who is your NFL comp for Jordan Willis? 

I know this is like calling him Hitler around here but I think Kroy Bierrman is a similar type of player. I'm not talking skill, because Willis' ceiling is much higher and he already has better passrush moves, but as far as play styles go I see it; Not an elite passrusher, but a guy that can give you solid play in both the run and passing downs. A sturdy kind of tweener body that gives his all on and off the field and is the perfect team mate. 

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2 hours ago, g-dawg said:

I think, if we draft him, I will just need to learn to appreciate Jordan for what he is - a guy that does a lot of the dirty work - not a lot of sacks but helping collapse the pocket on stunts and pushing the pocket.  Maybe he will have a lot of sacks...Nawrocki said in a few years he would be capable.

Who is your NFL comp for Jordan Willis? 

Frank Clark.

 

Watch this. Zero 'bendy' type stuff and straight up winning with bull rushes and hand fighting. I think Clark looks a little quicker on film here, but he's also being allowed to just go out and attack.

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Guys get too hung up on numbers and measurable's, to me the most important evaluation is the kids game tapes if he consistently balls out game in and game out he can play the phucking game! That's why I hope we get the Clemson kid Ben Boulware late in the draft or as a UDFA. The kid don't have all the numbers and measurable's but he can play the he!! outta football he's all over the field and arrives with violence. There's one thing the combine can't measure and that's heart...   

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2 hours ago, Lornoth said:

I know this is like calling him Hitler around here but I think Kroy Bierrman is a similar type of player. I'm not talking skill, because Willis' ceiling is much higher and he already has better passrush moves, but as far as play styles go I see it; Not an elite passrusher, but a guy that can give you solid play in both the run and passing downs. A sturdy kind of tweener body that gives his all on and off the field and is the perfect team mate. 

:bang:

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I think whoever we get at 31 is going to have issues.

I also think us as fans probably look at too much what a guy hasn't got instead of focusing on what he can do.

If it's not Willis as an edge guy at 31 then who as my first sentence mentions.Issues are issues at that number.If we are looking for thee guy at any position edge ain't it at 31.

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What is this board's obsession with "bend"? Only a few have it and some with the best bend are out of the league. Its been overrated by this board like everything else. Moderation in observation prevents stagnation.

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14 hours ago, g-dawg said:

I think, if we draft him, I will just need to learn to appreciate Jordan for what he is - a guy that does a lot of the dirty work - not a lot of sacks but helping collapse the pocket on stunts and pushing the pocket.  Maybe he will have a lot of sacks...Nawrocki said in a few years he would be capable.

Who is your NFL comp for Jordan Willis? 

Previous poster gave a good example of Frank Clark...and thats not a bad one...I also posted the multiple sack guys across the last 10 seasons...if you look at those guys, think of Jared Allen, James Harrison, Lamar Woodley, Charles Johnson, Tamba Hali, etc...really none having this "bendy/gumby" trait...

 

But to my bigger point I want to make...this is my mock I've got right now, and will post next Wed before the draft:

**Trade #31 and #63 with CLE for #33 and #52...obvious reasons of getting a QB with 5th year option, we move ahead of SEA, KC, DAL, PIT and GB in 2nd round who all seem to want pass rushers...

2 (33): Budda Baker FS 5'10" 195lbs (the ET comp isnt far off)

2 (52): Jordan Willis DE 6'4" 255lbs (I think he makes it here, but if not, this can be Derek Rivers)

3 (95): Dalvin Tomlinson DT 6'3" 310lbs (We need depth at DT, and he has played DE too, motor guy)

4 (127): Julie'n Davenport OT 6'7" 318lbs (44 starts at OT, some serious upside and swing OT need)

5 (176): Samson Ebukam OLB 6'2" 240lbs (Serious athleticism, maybe a reach, but no 6th rounder)

7 (252): Corey Levin OG 6'4" 307lbs (35 starts across OG/OT, good movement skills, competes)

 

Gives us Beasley, Willis, Clayborn, Shelby, Reed, Crawford, and Upshaw to rotate as edge guys

Gives us Poe, Jarrett, Hageman, Tomlinson to rotate inside (plus the kickins from others)

Gives us backup OT with potential, and Thornton, Garland, Wes, Levitre, and Levin to compete at OG

Gives us an upgraded starting FS that can be our ET and "Eraser"

Gives us another athletic LB to compete and perform on ST...SPEEDY - Jones, Campbell, Ishmael, Ebukam

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46 minutes ago, Matt_The Iceman_Ryan said:

Previous poster gave a good example of Frank Clark...and thats not a bad one...I also posted the multiple sack guys across the last 10 seasons...if you look at those guys, think of Jared Allen, James Harrison, Lamar Woodley, Charles Johnson, Tamba Hali, etc...really none having this "bendy/gumby" trait...

 

But to my bigger point I want to make...this is my mock I've got right now, and will post next Wed before the draft:

**Trade #31 and #63 with CLE for #33 and #52...obvious reasons of getting a QB with 5th year option, we move ahead of SEA, KC, DAL, PIT and GB in 2nd round who all seem to want pass rushers...

2 (33): Budda Baker FS 5'10" 195lbs (the ET comp isnt far off)

2 (52): Jordan Willis DE 6'4" 255lbs (I think he makes it here, but if not, this can be Derek Rivers)

3 (95): Dalvin Tomlinson DT 6'3" 310lbs (We need depth at DT, and he has played DE too, motor guy)

4 (127): Julie'n Davenport OT 6'7" 318lbs (44 starts at OT, some serious upside and swing OT need)

5 (176): Samson Ebukam OLB 6'2" 240lbs (Serious athleticism, maybe a reach, but no 6th rounder)

7 (252): Corey Levin OG 6'4" 307lbs (35 starts across OG/OT, good movement skills, competes)

 

Gives us Beasley, Willis, Clayborn, Shelby, Reed, Crawford, and Upshaw to rotate as edge guys

Gives us Poe, Jarrett, Hageman, Tomlinson to rotate inside (plus the kickins from others)

Gives us backup OT with potential, and Thornton, Garland, Wes, Levitre, and Levin to compete at OG

Gives us an upgraded starting FS that can be our ET and "Eraser"

Gives us another athletic LB to compete and perform on ST...SPEEDY - Jones, Campbell, Ishmael, Ebukam

seems like the only player I have talked about for the last 5 days is Jordan Willis.   Everyone keeps telling me how great he is - and a few days ago he was the one rumored we would trade up from #31 to get.   Now you are telling me Jordan Willis will be available at #52?   How can this be?

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17 minutes ago, Lornoth said:

Disagree?

yes.   FYI, Bierrman was not even a good starter.  He was a decent below average starter in the NFL.   His draft pedigree was 5th round.

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15 hours ago, g-dawg said:

I think, if we draft him, I will just need to learn to appreciate Jordan for what he is - a guy that does a lot of the dirty work - not a lot of sacks but helping collapse the pocket on stunts and pushing the pocket.  Maybe he will have a lot of sacks...Nawrocki said in a few years he would be capable.

Who is your NFL comp for Jordan Willis? 

Nick Perry 2.0

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59 minutes ago, g-dawg said:

yes.   FYI, Bierrman was not even a good starter.  He was a decent below average starter in the NFL.   His draft pedigree was 5th round.

I know that. I was talking about type of player not level of player. 

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10 minutes ago, Lornoth said:

I know that. I was talking about type of player not level of player. 

no, I don't think he is that type of player.

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1 hour ago, g-dawg said:

seems like the only player I have talked about for the last 5 days is Jordan Willis.   Everyone keeps telling me how great he is - and a few days ago he was the one rumored we would trade up from #31 to get.   Now you are telling me Jordan Willis will be available at #52?   How can this be?

I dont think Willis makes it to 63 based on the teams in fron of us at 31 and 63, but specifically 63...so if he is a guy we want, and we cant trade back, then yes, I think he goes to us 31...thats how..not hard...

People always talk about "reaching" on a guy, but if there are 10 teams after your pick that have the same need, you cant hope & wait that he will be at your next pick, which is 32 slots later...so yes, you take him at 31...

Which I have no problem doing...but taking a guy say at 31 that is ranked out of the top 75 players, thats differnet....or at 63 that is out of Top 100 (ala Dez Southward or Lamar Holmes)...

 

And the mock? Is it not beautiful?

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