A-TowN.-

2017 NFL Draft Prospects

180 posts in this topic

19 minutes ago, usmcdirtybird said:

Me too but unless they see something in Petty or HAckenberg then I think they will go QB.  Trust me, living here and hearing about the Fitzpatrick failure then they need a QB.  

You could tell by watching them, though I doubt they'll throw in the towel on Hackenberg this quickly, even though they should have never picked him in the 2nd round to start with.

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2 hours ago, Falcan Moore said:

Cam Robinson. It's the popular pick, and it's well deserved, though I haven't watched him as much as the other guys.

I think that is the popular pick, but I don't know his pass pro isn't what you want from your franchise LT.

The reason I asked was this tackle class is up the air for me. Mike McGlinchley going back to school makes an already weak tackle class even thinner. A guy who I like and has potential to be the first tackle off the board is Garrett Boles from Utah. 

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1 hour ago, Psychic Gibbon said:

He reminds me a lot of Freeney.

No way Freeney was a freak of an athlete. The best comparison I've seen for him is Charles Johnson. 

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1 minute ago, Smiler11 said:

No way Freeney was a freak of an athlete. The best comparison I've seen for him is Charles Johnson. 

I see Oliver Vernon. 

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4 minutes ago, Smiler11 said:

No way Freeney was a freak of an athlete. The best comparison I've seen for him is Charles Johnson. 

I don't see it with Johnson. CJ relies strength and size while Barnett relies more on agility and speed. He also has good bend for a DE his size so I don't know why you think he's too stiff. What he really needs in the NFL is an interior rush move for the times the outside speed rush doesn't work out.

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Just now, Falcan Moore said:

I disagree with virtually all of this. He isn't very fast, he isn't very agile, and he doesn't have good bend. But that's just imho...I would be hesitant to draft him.

I feel this way about prospects pretty often, where a lot of people love them but I don't see the hype...not something I can really put into words, I just don't see it with him.

I don't know what you're watching then. :lol:

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5 hours ago, Falcan Moore said:

What's a good game to watch for that? Like I said, I haven't watched him nearly as much as some of the other guys.

For my main dude, Garcia needs to work on technique some, for sure, especially since he gets a little grabby around the shoulders/bear-huggy if he gets beat, but he makes it look effortless sometimes.

Garcia is good. Garrett Bolles is another good LT. Horrible tackle class though. And PG you're right about Robinson. He's very suspect against speed. 

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On 1/14/2017 at 1:38 PM, Falcan Moore said:

Taking Watson anywhere in the first round would be a huge mistake. But I'm saying that about TJ Watt too, so...

I think both are 2nd round talents. Watson may not have the best footwork but he's just a gamer. 

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On 1/13/2017 at 5:14 PM, Psychic Gibbon said:

That isn't an issue to me since most college football coaches start players based on seniority to a fault. -Good point...

The **** are you watching? Point me to a single game of his, just one, where he goes through his progressions, manipulates defenses with his eyes, and isn't staring down his targets on a constant basis.

-Just call this a quick response, when I have time I will put something on here that we can chop up together. I don't have the time right now. ESPN did a piece on him where he did do just that right before the championship game where they showed him moving linebackers and safeties. And like I have been trying to tell you, you have to consider the type of player you have, he doesn't go through his progressions no less or more than any other dual threat QB. I'm not looking at him like he's Stafford or somebody. As far as playing the position of QB, he's no less of a QB than Cam Newton or RG3 at the college level to me. Honestly, it's almost laughable that you literally think he NEVER manipulates coverage with his eyes. I will put something up here when I have a chance though. 

Check out Trubisky then. Or Goff last season. -Again you have to know what you have. That's like looking at Newton and Gabbert. Different players, different type of players, different roles being asked by there system, etc... You are comparing straight up drop back guys to a dual threat guy, I mean come on man....  

Yes he did. However, he didn't have to do it consistently since his supporting cast wasn't also very good so it was necessary to go through three reads on most plays.-You just repeated my statement, I said he didn't do it, but when he did it was inconsistent. Supportin cast wasn't that good, lol... for Winston at Florida State yeah, okay.  Agree to disagree

What the **** are you talking about? -Usually when this happens people just don't have anything logic based to bring to the table. Last resort type a phrase with that involves ****....   If you don't understand my words. Tweet that to Mike Mayock, maybe he can explain it to you better. Not bringing him up to help my argument, I'm bringing him up because he initially brought this too my attention.  Winston is a beyond below average QB when forced to make more than 3 reads. Winston's game is not perfect man. And yes Watson makes his reads no different more or less than any other dual threat QB. 

Is that what you think I'm doing? :lol: - Put it this way, last year Cam Newton was an MVP, this year give him bad guard play, an injured center and inconsistent wide out play and he's one of the worse QBs in the league. Last year, some wanted us to take Watson number one overall because of how Matt Ryan was playing. This year, league MVP. Last year if Watson would have came out he would have went ahead of both the top 2 QBs where teams traded almost there left testicle for. This year people are trying to place him in the second round.  If you are sitting here comparing Watson and Trubisky straight up then yes you are doing it in a vacuum, too different types of players, different requirements and all....    

I guess it is what you think I'm doing. If that was the case then I'd say this was a terrible class on par with the 2013 class.

In reality I really like this class. Trubisky and Kizer both need polishing but both project well, and I have compared them before with Trubisky reminding me of a cross between Ryan and Romo and Kizer reminding me of Palmer. Mahomes is the one I like the most but he's a project since his mechanics are a mess, has a habit of getting skittish when no one gets open quickly enough, and he's in a quick read spread offense (like Watson) but if the right coaching staff *cough*Arians*cough* gets their hands on him then he can be great. -Let me ask you something. What type of offense would you say the Patriots run? What type of offense does Pittsburgh, Kansas City, Atlanta, Houston, basically I would say the majority teams left in the playoffs with the exception of Dallas. What type of offense do they run?

THIS WHOLE STATEMENT IS WHY I SAY YOU HAVE TO BE A GUY WHO DON'T BELIEVE IN COACHING. ONLY STATEMENT ON HERE THAT ISN'T TRUE FOR MOST QB'S FROM COLLEGE TO PRO IS DEEP BALL ACCURACY WHICH I DON'T EVEN BELIEVE IT'S BAD BUT AGREE TO DISAGREE.

By comparison, Watson is a huge project. The coaching staff will need to get him acclimated to operating under center and in a huddle (wow, not that's a shocker I wonder if this is something new), get him more comfortable in the pocket (wow, not that's a shocker I wonder if this is something new), figure out what the issue is behind his inconsistencies even though he has pretty solid mechanics (again, with the vacuum thing, inconsistent this year), fix his bad deep ball accuracy (lol, okay agree to disagree, bad can mean different things to different people), teach him how to make anticipation passes (is repetition with his receivers and understanding the play, anybody with a strong work ethic and proper tools can do this), etc. It isn't impossible that he can become an NFL capable QB but there are so many question marks, a lot of them critical to being a QB at the next level, that it is mind boggling that people not only consider him a 1st round pick but a top-5 prospect. 

And you come off as someone who'd take Tebow #1.- agree to disagree, honestly I think Tebow actually fits your QB description of Watson. I don't agree with your description of Watson. I don't think any of these QBs are top 5 talent. Do I think they are franchised QBs yeah, I do. To me that means that if a team needs a QB and that QB fits your needs you either have to draft him at your first pick or got get him. That doesn't mean there talent is the top 5 or 10 or 15 of there class.

Put it like this, agree to disagree.... 

I honestly don't even really have a good idea where you stand on Watson honestly.  Partly because you make statements like this " It isn't impossible that he can become an NFL capable QB but there are so many question marks". To me if your looking at a player like this, they don't even get drafted, and to me your "question marks" are either exaggerated or overblown because basically most QB's come with said question marks. Like I said, I don't think any of these guys are top 5 or even top 15 talent wise, but I do think Watson, Trubisky, and Kizer can be franchised QBs in the right situation just like any other QB. So if a team needs a QB and that said QB matches your needs and is the right fit you either have to go get him or draft him with your first pick. QB trumps all IMO. That don't mean that if a team at 8 selects Watson, Watson is the 8th best player. 

Edited by datchrisb1

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On this Watson thing....

1.)  First of all I would love for him to go in the first round, my team doesn't need one, that's one more player option my team gets to have when they pick.

 

 

2.) NONE of these guys QB wise are even top 10 talent wise. People like to look at a team picking at 4 taking a QB and want to correlate that to mean that QB is the 4th best player. It's simple, QB trumps all. If a team is picking at 9 and they need a QB, said QB fits there system and needs and said QB is still available, they have to pick that QB. Said QB could be the 12th best prospect overall. QB trumps all.  NONE OF THE QB's ARE TOP 5 OR EVEN TOP 10 PROSPECTS!

 

3.) Deshaun Watson is no more or less a QB prospect than any dual threat QB that has come out.  It just depends on the requirements of that team as too where and who he goes too.  Just like the other QB prospects, he COULD be a franchise QB in the right system, but I just don't see any John Elways, Andre Lucks in this draft. They are all potential franchised QB's, guys you can win with, and just like pretty much all other QB's (accept somebody like Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady, etc...), you can win with them, could win the Super Bowl if on the right team with the right supporting cast.  

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On 1/13/2017 at 5:14 PM, Psychic Gibbon said:

In reality I really like this class. Trubisky and Kizer both need polishing but both project well, and I have compared them before with Trubisky reminding me of a cross between Ryan and Romo and Kizer reminding me of Palmer. Mahomes is the one I like the most but he's a project since his mechanics are a mess, has a habit of getting skittish when no one gets open quickly enough, and he's in a quick read spread offense (like Watson) but if the right coaching staff *cough*Arians*cough* gets their hands on him then he can be great.

By comparison, Watson is a huge project. The coaching staff will need to get him acclimated to operating under center and in a huddle, get him more comfortable in the pocket, figure out what the issue is behind his inconsistencies even though he has pretty solid mechanics, fix his bad deep ball accuracy, teach him how to make anticipation passes, etc. It isn't impossible that he can become an NFL capable QB but there are so many question marks, a lot of them critical to being a QB at the next level, that it is mind boggling that people not only consider him a 1st round pick but a top-5 prospect.

This is my main argument with you. This right here man, this doesn't make him a "huge project", all of that that you pointed out makes him a rookie QB dude. When you have to start messing with throwing motion, and mechanics that's a huge project ie. -your Tim Tebow argument.  Watson is not a huge project for any NFL team, and he's he won't be a project at all in the right system the right situation.

 

 

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24 minutes ago, datchrisb1 said:

This is my main argument with you. This right here man, this doesn't make him a "huge project", all of that that you pointed out makes him a rookie QB dude. When you have to start messing with throwing motion, and mechanics that's a huge project ie. -your Tim Tebow argument.  Watson is not a huge project for any NFL team, and he's he won't be a project at all in the right system the right situation.

 

 

There is a difference between fine tuning a prospects mechanics and a complete overhaul. Trubisky and Kizer both need fine tuning to tighten up their deliveries to make them a bit quicker and Mahomes' main problem is that his feet when dropping back aren't up to snuff. He also has a habit of not using his hips but that is also an issue with his offense liking quick throws. At the end of the day these are fairly common problems with QBs coming out.

Tebow, on the other hand, needed a total overhaul to become an NFL caliber QB. He always dropped the ball below his hip, his delivery was slow, his feet were bad, etc. That was just for starters since he had a host of other issues that needed to be corrected. Chances of him getting corrected were low at best yet his fan club still shouted down all criticisms and for some mind boggling reason the Broncos took him in the 1st round.

Watson, meanwhile, has pretty good mechanics. His feet are good, he uses his hips to help drive the ball, his delivery is pretty quick... yet for whatever reason he still has accuracy issues. Figuring out why that is the case on top of breaking his habit of staring down receivers, teaching him how to read defenses, teaching him how to operate under Center, teaching him how to operate in a huddle, etc. That is what makes him a huge project. That does not equate to him being an impossible case but it does mean no team in their right mind should take him in the 1st round.

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50 minutes ago, Psychic Gibbon said:

There is a difference between fine tuning a prospects mechanics and a complete overhaul. Trubisky and Kizer both need fine tuning to tighten up their deliveries to make them a bit quicker and Mahomes' main problem is that his feet when dropping back aren't up to snuff. He also has a habit of not using his hips but that is also an issue with his offense liking quick throws. At the end of the day these are fairly common problems with QBs coming out.

Tebow, on the other hand, needed a total overhaul to become an NFL caliber QB. He always dropped the ball below his hip, his delivery was slow, his feet were bad, etc. That was just for starters since he had a host of other issues that needed to be corrected. Chances of him getting corrected were low at best yet his fan club still shouted down all criticisms and for some mind boggling reason the Broncos took him in the 1st round.

Watson, meanwhile, has pretty good mechanics. His feet are good, he uses his hips to help drive the ball, his delivery is pretty quick... yet for whatever reason he still has accuracy issues. Figuring out why that is the case on top of breaking his habit of staring down receivers, teaching him how to read defenses, teaching him how to operate under Center, teaching him how to operate in a huddle, etc. That is what makes him a huge project. That does not equate to him being an impossible case but it does mean no team in their right mind should take him in the 1st round.

His inaccuracy issues are the biggest difference between this year and the previous 2 years. Is it an issue yeah, project issue status, lol...  heck no!

He doesn't stare down his targets no more than any other dual threat QB. Dual threat QBs go one read two read run all of them are like that, he's the same way and again that's not a project status of an issue, either your exaggerating or your looking at him in a vacuum. It's not a project of an issue, dude. 

Teaching him how to read defenses isn't a project of an issue no more than him actually being a rookie college QB coming into the NFL that ran a spread offense. You don't even have to include the dual threat element in that. You read one side of the field usually a high to low deal, if the last option isn't open you run. That's a college QB. YOU ARE EXAGGERATING! He's coming out of a COLLEGE spread offense, no more of a project than majority of all the other spread offense QBs.

EXAGGERATING!!! DON'T EVEN NEED TO ELABORATE ON THIS ONE! CAN YOU SAY COLLEGE SPREAD OFFENSE QB!

 

Broke it down for you, so where is your case now! This guy isn't some kind of "project" player, lol.... Seriously, dude.  He will be a rookie dual threat college QB coming into the NFL. The issues you labeled are issues all spread offense QBs have to deal with, and the issues you sited are detrimental to the point where he deserves the project label. By your criteria Cam Newton and RG3 were projects as well though.

Edited by datchrisb1

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Just now, datchrisb1 said:

His inaccuracy issues are the biggest difference between this year and the previous 2 years. Is it an issue yeah, project issue status, lol...  heck no!

He doesn't stare down his targets no more than any other dual threat QB. Dual threat QBs go one read two read run all of them are like that, he's the same way and again that's not a project status of an issue, either your exaggerating or your looking at him in a vacuum. It's not a project of an issue, dude. 

Teaching him how to read defenses isn't a project of an issue no more than him actually being a rookie college QB coming into the NFL that ran a spread offense. You don't even have to include the dual threat element in that. You read one side of the field usually a high to low deal, if the last option isn't open you run. That's a college QB. YOU ARE EXAGGERATING! He's coming out of a COLLEGE spread offense, no more of a project than majority of all the other spread offense QBs.

EXAGGERATING!!! DON'T EVEN NEED TO ELABORATE ON THIS ONE! CAN YOU SAY COLLEGE SPREAD OFFENSE QB!

 

Broke it down for you, so where is your case now! This guy isn't some kind of project player, lol.... Seriously, dude

Mmk. I'll try to go through this:

His completion% is 0.8% worse this year than this year so it's not like his accuracy started becoming a question mark all of a sudden this season. He also threw four more INTs this year compared to last year which was a bit of a jump but not a huge one. The only real difference is that people started scrutinizing him since they knew he was going to declare for the draft.

Watson doesn't make one read two read. He makes one read and makes a throw (sometimes forcing it or not noticing defenders in the area because he's not trying to find them which is why he throws so many INTs) or run. Again: Point out any game, just one, where you can show that he's going through his progressions. All it has to be is him going to his second read.

You appear to be under the impression that all spread offenses are the same and that no QB that operates in them have to make pre-snap reads or go through progressions. You can watch Trubisky and Kizer in their spread offenses if you want examples, though they're obviously not perfect at reading defenses and will need fine tuning.

Teaching them how to operate under Center is an issue with all of the top QBs in this class. I pointed it out for Watson since it's something else that needs to be coached up on top of other stuff.

To wrap it up, Newton had a lot of the same problems that Watson has when he declared but he had a rocket arm, could hit short, intermediate, and deep passes, and he had the size to withstand the punishment. Due to that there were traits available to let him and the team get by until he developed into a pro style QB... though whether or not that has happened yet is debatable. Watson, by comparison, does not have the size to lend much confidence in him remaining a dual threat QB in the NFL (see: RGIII) and it's not like he's a Vick type of scrambling talent to outrun and avoid defenders, plus there's the whole issue of him already having a repaired knee. Due to that he needs to show good arm talent and other pocket passer traits and he simply doesn't.

You can sing his praises until you're blue in the face but he isn't a 1st or 2nd round caliber prospect, though I really, really hope someone takes him in the 1st to help other prospects slide to us.

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8 minutes ago, Psychic Gibbon said:

Mmk. I'll try to go through this:

His completion% is 0.8% worse this year than this year so it's not like his accuracy started becoming a question mark all of a sudden this season. He also threw four more INTs this year compared to last year which was a bit of a jump but not a huge one. The only real difference is that people started scrutinizing him since they knew he was going to declare for the draft.

Watson doesn't make one read two read. He makes one read and makes a throw (sometimes forcing it or not noticing defenders in the area because he's not trying to find them which is why he throws so many INTs) or run. Again: Point out any game, just one, where you can show that he's going through his progressions. All it has to be is him going to his second read.

You appear to be under the impression that all spread offenses are the same and that no QB that operates in them have to make pre-snap reads or go through progressions. You can watch Trubisky and Kizer in their spread offenses if you want examples, though they're obviously not perfect at reading defenses and will need fine tuning.

Teaching them how to operate under Center is an issue with all of the top QBs in this class. I pointed it out for Watson since it's something else that needs to be coached up on top of other stuff.

To wrap it up, Newton had a lot of the same problems that Watson has when he declared but he had a rocket arm, could hit short, intermediate, and deep passes, and he had the size to withstand the punishment. Due to that there were traits available to let him and the team get by until he developed into a pro style QB... though whether or not that has happened yet is debatable. Watson, by comparison, does not have the size to lend much confidence in him remaining a dual threat QB in the NFL (see: RGIII) and it's not like he's a Vick type of scrambling talent to outrun and avoid defenders, plus there's the whole issue of him already having a repaired knee. Due to that he needs to show good arm talent and other pocket passer traits and he simply doesn't.

You can sing his praises until you're blue in the face but he isn't a 1st or 2nd round caliber prospect, though I really, really hope someone takes him in the 1st to help other prospects slide to us.

Not singing his praises. Put it this way, if I'm singing his praises, you have an ax to grind.  My issue was the notion that if a GM actually drafted him 1st overall, he should be fired. You nor I know that yet.  That was my issue! That's absurd. You do have a good point regarding his knee.

"You appear to be under the impression that all spread offenses are the same and that no QB that operates in them have to make pre-snap reads or go through progressions." - I don't even know where or at what point did I even come close to saying this... it's easy to comment on what people actually say on here Copy and Paste, know need for lies... or putting something out there that isn't even close and think its' okay because you put the word "appear" in the statement.

" He makes one read and makes a throw (sometimes forcing it or not noticing defenders in the area because he's not trying to find them which is why he throws so many INTs) or run. Again: Point out any game, just one, where you can show that he's going through his progressions. All it has to be is him going to his second read." - we can chop this up when I get a real chance too....

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16 hours ago, datchrisb1 said:

Not singing his praises. Put it this way, if I'm singing his praises, you have an ax to grind.  My issue was the notion that if a GM actually drafted him 1st overall, he should be fired. You nor I know that yet.  That was my issue! That's absurd. You do have a good point regarding his knee.

"You appear to be under the impression that all spread offenses are the same and that no QB that operates in them have to make pre-snap reads or go through progressions." - I don't even know where or at what point did I even come close to saying this... it's easy to comment on what people actually say on here Copy and Paste, know need for lies... or putting something out there that isn't even close and think its' okay because you put the word "appear" in the statement.

" He makes one read and makes a throw (sometimes forcing it or not noticing defenders in the area because he's not trying to find them which is why he throws so many INTs) or run. Again: Point out any game, just one, where you can show that he's going through his progressions. All it has to be is him going to his second read." - we can chop this up when I get a real chance too....

In a way I do have an ax to grind. I've gone through this before when I pointed out that Tebow wasn't a prospect and that Manziel was nowhere close to being the top QB of his class only to have their fan clubs foam at the mouth whenever their flaws were pointed out. Every NFL draft community I go to I see the same thing with Watson and his fan club. Since they're wrong and, more importantly, because it's funny to watch their reactions I'll keep poking that bear.

"I don't even know where or at what point did I even come close to saying this"

" Teaching him how to read defenses isn't a project of an issue no more than him actually being a rookie college QB coming into the NFL that ran a spread offense "

I also look forward to your video. :rolleyes:

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5 hours ago, Psychic Gibbon said:

I also look forward to your video. :rolleyes:

Thanks man although I will say I'm burnt out on high light videos. 

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On 1/17/2017 at 8:45 AM, Psychic Gibbon said:

In a way I do have an ax to grind. I've gone through this before when I pointed out that Tebow wasn't a prospect and that Manziel was nowhere close to being the top QB of his class only to have their fan clubs foam at the mouth whenever their flaws were pointed out. Every NFL draft community I go to I see the same thing with Watson and his fan club. Since they're wrong and, more importantly, because it's funny to watch their reactions I'll keep poking that bear.

"I don't even know where or at what point did I even come close to saying this"

" Teaching him how to read defenses isn't a project of an issue no more than him actually being a rookie college QB coming into the NFL that ran a spread offense "

I also look forward to your video. :rolleyes:

You were right! Gotta give you credit on some of what you said.

Man, I've never actually watched this guy on tape, didn't need to, my team wasn't looking for a QB.  I watched the Auburn game, I didn't do anything in depth just schemed through it a bit. I can see what you were talking about.  Now in saying that, I still didn't feel like it was extremely obvious that he wasn't reading the defense. It appears to me Clemson's offense is just that simple. It could be that he can't read defenses, but in my honest opinion, finding a QB at the FBS level that can flat out not read defenses to the point were they can't come off there first read is like finding a unicorn in your back yard. Those things just simply don't exist anymore. Kids are doing those types of reads in high school now. Back in the day that could have been the case. It just looks like he has a designated read on every play. After watching, he reminded me of Jake Locker really.

 

 

 

Edited by datchrisb1

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1 hour ago, datchrisb1 said:

You were right! Gotta give you credit on some of what you said.

Man, I've never actually watched this guy on tape, didn't need to, my team wasn't looking for a QB.  I watched the Auburn game, I didn't do anything in depth just schemed through it a bit. I can see what you were talking about.  Now in saying that, I still didn't feel like it was extremely obvious that he wasn't reading the defense. It appears to me Clemson's offense is just that simple. It could be that he can't read defenses, but in my honest opinion, finding a QB at the FBS level that can flat out not read defenses to the point were they can't come off there first read is like finding a unicorn in your back yard. Those things just simply don't exist anymore. Kids are doing those types of reads in high school now. Back in the day that could have been the case. It just looks like he has a designated read on every play. After watching, he reminded me of Jake Locker really.

giphy.gif

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On 12/14/2016 at 1:09 PM, A-TowN.- said:

Reddick:

+Extremely explosive and athletic

+Great first step and quickness/speed

+Strong hands and good technique

+Great motor

-Somewhat undersized

-Strictly a LEO?

-Needs to improve on holding the point of attack. 

Watt:

+Great length and athleticism

+Fantastic, strong hands

+Student of the game, focuses on technique

+Great leverage and quickness off the snap

+Great motor

-Somewhat raw, needs more experience

-Still filling out his frame

-Strictly a LEO?

Wish we could still get Reddick but I want Watt really bad. 

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On 10/23/2016 at 7:31 PM, A-TowN.- said:

T.J. Watt has incredible hands, agility, strength, and he has long arms with a really high motor. He's going to be a first rounder in my opinion. Has a lot of the same traits his brother has, except he's a lot lighter than J.J.

Got to pat myself on the back. 

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On 10/21/2016 at 1:02 AM, A-TowN.- said:

Thomas Solomon could be the next DeForest Buckner. Big and athletic. Long arms. Good anchor off the snap. I think he'll be another first round PAC-12 DE. Armstead, Buckner and now Solomon. He's an animal. 

Okay enough **** / ego stroking from me 

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12 hours ago, A-TowN.- said:

Okay enough **** / ego stroking from me 

I strongly support ego stroking when its a legitimate call like this one. 

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