11 replies to this topic

[EpicBeardMan]

Quote

Providence means the invisible guiding hand of God, so I'm always sad to see things skidding wildly into **** creek in a place called Providence. But that's exactly what happened this year to Providence, Rhode Island, population 178,000. You could fit the entire population of Providence inside two LA Coliseums and have 9,000 extra seats. It's not exactly Tokyo. So the townsfolk were surprised when their unions told them they owed them $901 million for their pensions.

And no, I'm not just blaming the unions. They're the nicest bunch of no-necks you'd ever like to meet. There are other problems with the system. Retirees living longer, for instance, and the pension funds losing money in the market.

But unemployment in Rhode Island is 11%. It's a beleaguered little Chow-Chow of a state.
And Providence was going bankrupt. So last month -- in cooperation with the unions -- they reformed the pension system. You can do this stuff, if both sides agree not to be ********. One of the things they did was get rid of the 5 percent and 6 percent annual increases given to about 600 former firefighters and police. Another was to cap future pensions at 1.5 times the state's median annual household income, or about $82,000. Which doesn't sound like any robber barons are kicking the stool out from under the workingman, but that's just me.
There are two dozen city retirees collecting more than $100,000 a year in Providence. Which is nice for them, but hard on a tiny city of people who aren't evil or greedy or anything. Really. I've been there.

The poster child for the problem with the Providence pension system is former fire chief Gilbert McLaughlin. And I know this is anecdotal, but that's really just another word for "fact you don’t like." McLaughlin retired in 1991, age 55, making $63,510 a year. His contract entitled him to a 6% cost of living increase every year. So this year, for not being fire chief, he made $196,813. If McLaughlin lives to be 100 -- and why not, it's not like he's fighting fires -- he would've earned $700,000 a year under the old system.
Something had to give. So Providence -- and the whole state, governed by our old pal Linc Chafee, neither greedy nor evil, nor out to destroy the middle class -- are suspending cost of living increases, and capping benefits.
I think we need unions. But when people hear about the retired fireman whose pay doubles every twelve years, you can see how they might not like it.

I'd like to read everyones opinion on this matter, and whether or not they agree with the Pension Reform set forth in Rhode Island.

Edited by EpicBeardMan, 25 June 2012 - 08:18 PM.

[capologist]

I'm conflicted on it.  On one hand, the city agreed to the contract.  Shouldn't they be able to do the simple math and realize this wasn't a good deal?  On the other hand, there's the problem of funding simply running out and then what?

[Original BoP]

I agree with the reform. When contracts are made on the back of the tax payer then I think it is perfectly okay for the tax payers to have a say (city/state/federal representatives) and to be able to re-work those contracts that are simply not feasible. Bill Maher got this one right, which is the most shocking thing.

[falconsd56]

BirdsOfPrey, on 26 June 2012 - 01:11 PM, said:

I agree with the reform. When contracts are made on the back of the tax payer then I think it is perfectly okay for the tax payers to have a say (city/state/federal representatives) and to be able to re-work those contracts that are simply not feasible. Bill Maher got this one right, which is the most shocking thing.

I agree with this.

Maher is a smart guy and he honestly is usually right.

The problem is his presentation for it. He comes across as an over the top smug jack azz.

[capologist]

falconsd56, on 26 June 2012 - 01:14 PM, said:

I agree with this.

Maher is a smart guy and he honestly is usually write.

The problem is his presentation for it. He comes across as an over the top smug jack azz.

That's actually what I like about him (and he's a huge animal lover!)

[Rambler]

The city and state being on the hook for these pensions is crazy to begin with. I am vested in a union pension that came out of MY benefits package and is of no cost to the taxpayer and this is the way all pensions need to be set up.  Money should have been set aside years ago for these pensions and managed like every other retirement account. The fact that municipalities did not see this coming years ago is mind boggling.

[lostone]

So here's what I need to do... Get a job where I make 60k+ a year... Then get them to giver a 6% pension a year... Then profit!!!!

In reality it should have started at about 40k then cap at around 50k maybe.

[AcworthFalcFan]

Here's an honest answer:

The author is a loudmouth d-bag know-nothing blow hard.  He might have some points correct, but that doesn't change what he is or has been over the past 20 years.

[Xnex]

Rambler, on 26 June 2012 - 03:01 PM, said:

The city and state being on the hook for these pensions is crazy to begin with. I am vested in a union pension that came out of MY benefits package and is of no cost to the taxpayer and this is the way all pensions need to be set up.  Money should have been set aside years ago for these pensions and managed like every other retirement account. The fact that municipalities did not see this coming years ago is mind boggling.

But your job is not a cost to the tax payer, I'm guessing here. Does no part of your pension plan involve contributions from your employer, a matching donation up to a certain percentage? If a person works for the city or state then their job itself is an expense to the tax payer and their pensions would also be at the expense, at least partially of the people they worked for throughout their careers, ie the tax paying citizens.

[EpicBeardMan]

AcworthFalcFan, on 26 June 2012 - 11:36 PM, said:

Here's an honest answer:

The author is a loudmouth d-bag know-nothing blow hard.  He might have some points correct, but that doesn't change what he is or has been over the past 20 years.

I take it that he hit a nerve with you at some point.  Too close to home?

[Rambler]

It, on 27 June 2012 - 09:06 AM, said:

But your job is not a cost to the tax payer, I'm guessing here. Does no part of your pension plan involve contributions from your employer, a matching donation up to a certain percentage? If a person works for the city or state then their job itself is an expense to the tax payer and their pensions would also be at the expense, at least partially of the people they worked for throughout their careers, ie the tax paying citizens.

When an employer signs a contract with a Craft Union they agree to pay a predetermined amount per hour for that craftsman. The Union decides on a whole how that money is disbursed on the employees behalf. For example, Caveman Mechanical signs a contract with Local 666 and agrees to pay 44 dollars an hour for that employee. The local then decides that the employee will get $32 an hour in the hip, 5 dollars an hour goes towards medical insurance, 5 dollars an hour goes into a pension, and 2 dollars an hour in an annuity. The local can even decide to give the employee the whole 44 an hour and leave it up to the employee to do the rest on their own (but this never happens).

The local can then send contributions to the National Pension fund or they can do their own fund (D.C. Local 602 for example).
Local 602 is broken down like this.
36 an hour in the hip.
4 dollars an hour in an annuity.
6 dollars an hour in the pension fund. This translates into 170 dollars a month retirement for every years service. (more if you have alot of overtime)
6 dollars an hour for medical insurance.

The average D.C. pipefitter with 30 years service retires with about a $5000- $6000 month pension and $300k in an annuity, not back for blue collar worker.

[Xnex]

Rambler, on 27 June 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

When an employer signs a contract with a Craft Union they agree to pay a predetermined amount per hour for that craftsman. The Union decides on a whole how that money is disbursed on the employees behalf. For example, Caveman Mechanical signs a contract with Local 666 and agrees to pay 44 dollars an hour for that employee. The local then decides that the employee will get $32 an hour in the hip, 5 dollars an hour goes towards medical insurance, 5 dollars an hour goes into a pension, and 2 dollars an hour in an annuity. The local can even decide to give the employee the whole 44 an hour and leave it up to the employee to do the rest on their own (but this never happens).

The local can then send contributions to the National Pension fund or they can do their own fund (D.C. Local 602 for example).
Local 602 is broken down like this.
36 an hour in the hip.
4 dollars an hour in an annuity.
6 dollars an hour in the pension fund. This translates into 170 dollars a month retirement for every years service. (more if you have alot of overtime)
6 dollars an hour for medical insurance.

The average D.C. pipefitter with 30 years service retires with about a $5000- $6000 month pension and $300k in an annuity, not back for blue collar worker.

Yeah that seems like a pretty decent deal to me as well. Plus when you look at the amount that goes directly to the employee he or she should theorhetically(sp) be able to put a fair amount of that into various investments to provide for their retirement as well.

But the point I was trying to make in my previous post was in response to your post in which you said that the city or state being on the hook for the pensions is crazy to begin with. Since you work in the private sector your union takes funds from the employer and invests some of it for you to help with retirement. But people who work for any branch of the government can only be paid through contributions made by the public through taxes. With them there is no other way to have a pension plan other than for the cost of that pension to come from the state/city through the tax paying public.